This is not meant to bring anyone down. I just hope some people will be able to point out some things that will alleviate some of my concerns that Elemental is not going to be "Master of Magicky" enough for me.
To me the thing that made MoM so great, was it had that "just one more turn!" magic that could have you awake at 3:00 in the morning, you to go to work if 4 hours AND YOU DIDN'T CARE.
Don't get me wrong - the two Stardock games I have played, GalCiV2 and SOASE are great games. And I don't even know how to quantify it, I don't know exactly what it is that gives a game "the magic". I really like a lot of what I am seeing. but a lot of what I am hearing such as no other races but Men and Fallen, and no disrespect to Total War, but it really seems like they are aiming for Total War with fireballs and dragons. And if that is the case, that will be a cool game that I enjoy. And I realize the game isn't even in really alpha yet, so I could be jumping the gun on getting my fears up. But here are some of the things that I am afraid will be missing from the game I hoped for:
1. The abililty to play as lots of different races and for it to be truly completely different. In MoM, playing as High Men, halflings, orcs, etc etc truly made each game a new experience. They didn't just say "every race has to have a light infantry, an archer, a heavy infantry, a catapult" and then give them different graphics. They really made each race it's own thing with unique strengths and weaknesses. It seems like just Men and Fallen is going to leave me wishing for more variety. Again I haven't seen anything so here is hoping when beta comes out I am wrong.
2. Another thing that made MoM almost infinitely replayable were the 30 or so options you could choose from at game start up. things like alchemy that would allow you to convert mana and gold into each other with no loss. Or starting on Myrror. O being a Warlord (combat bonus) and some of them had prerequisites, such as to be an Arch Mage (I think) you had to have at least one book of every school of magic. Then there was selecting the books of magic and preselecting your guaranteed spells. All of this combined with number 1 above really meant you had a universe of infinite possibilites.
3. MoM had a huge spellbook of over 100 spells. and again they were not just lame "ice bolt does 10 ICE damage and fire bolt does 10 FIRE damage" stupid essentially duplicate spells. Thre were some really well thought out and different spells that just seemed to fit the school that they came from. So far, it seems like the spell selection is going to be much less deep in Elemental.
I hope these are all unfounded concerns. I was a huge Master of Orion 3 fanboi until the actually released the game. So maybe it is just once bitten, twice shy. And I am really looking forward to getting a look at this, it is just that so much that I have heard so far has given me some concerns it is not going to be the game I had hoped.
They don't necessarily have to be army-wide; Paladin's and clergy could simply provide a 'localized' AoE boost, and that would be cool too.
Levels. They are OK for ships in GC2, but for a 'character' unit, I'd rather see milestones that let me choose where to invest experience points. Do I want to increase my essence, or is there another stat or skill that I'd be better off improving at the moment? Maybe right now, I really need to be better at hitting the books, or maybe I have a drama-queen grudge against a rival and I want to do everything I can to get ready for a big, formal, no-magic duel.
The word also worries me because in strict D&D-type games, you can't get XP without killing or at least looting. I'm seriously hoping that Elemental takes a big step towards 'playstyle neutrality' by avoiding what amount to inherent penalties for players who do not take an aggressive, exploitative approach to the game.
That's a discussion for beta 0 I think. We'll have what they've gotten, and the perfect place to test ideas that get bounced off them.
Well, you could make a Cleric unit as one that has a healing ability instead of an army wide bonus. Patching up your forces after a battle is really useful (or even during it, if the heal is usable during tactical combat).
I for one agree with the original poster. I would rather see 3 or 4 original fantasy races then 12 human races and the decision to go with all human would influence me to stay away from the game. If you wanted to stay away from the stereotypical "fantasy" races like orcs, elves and dwarves I am sure the people of this community could help with that. I am very disappointed to find out there will not be any true fantasy races to play.
Only two races is good enough for me. If I want more I will create them myself.
See now, I count this game as having 12 races, just like I count red alert 2's expansion: yuri's revenge as having 3 races, even though they were all human. So what if they all look the same, as long as play differently it shouldn't matter what they are.
again, I can't be worried about any kind of limit on races, since stardock's made it clear that they want modders and such to be able to make whatever kinds of races and models they want.
If everybody wants orcs and stuff, they can just go into the game and change the models to something they want. It will only take a lot of time, some artistic skills, and some code work.
Although 12 human races may play differently they will have many many many more similiarities than fantasy races of goblins, dwarves, humans, insects, undead, and giants.
If everybody(the customers) do want orcs and stuff it seems better to meet the demands of your customers instead of having them pay for tools to make the stuff they originally wanted. If a large group of customers wish to own new hurricane resistant homes in Florida... should the company sell the customers tools & supplies for building their own homes or should the company build the hurrican resistant homes for the customers where the customers merely provide advice on what they would want for their homes. Most people don't have the skills or the time to build their own homes and on the same note most gamers don't have the skills or time to build their own races.
I have to say most of my concerns have been addressed. Let's wait and see what comes out of beta 0.
<q> NTJedi
<q>
Well said. Wraith can pass wall, no human can. This is why fantasy TBS allow things that aren’t be convincingly happen in a war TBS game. For example, undead sovereign may have the unique ability to convert any new unit purchased/captured to undead. This is fun, convincing & player can make it a game-winning strategy.
While SD devs try best to differentiate the 12 human races enough, can they make them different/interesting enough in terms of gameplay? It maybe easier to create interesting storyline with human races; but if the writer is good, 4 to 6 human races should be more than enough.
What if one of the 12 tribes has become a death cult of necromancers and can thus raise fallen troops to fight on as undead? Or what if they can summon ghost units who have the ability to be invisible or walk thru walls?
Another tribe maybe has devolved to barbarism with their magic users being shaman types? Wouldn't such a faction play essentially the same as orcs?
Let's see what comes out in beta - I would still prefer the fantasy races too, but let's see what we get in beta.
Hehe, myself I'd like exactly two factions, so that balance issues can be easily solved, and there can be more varieties of units, equipment, etcetera for you in one particular game.
This shouldn't be a problem, though, given the great number of choices it looks like will be available during the game. One of my biggest complaints with most 4x is that you make a great many choices before the game begins, when I really want to see most of those choices happen during the game.
I personally don’t understand the logic behind the whole “if all the factions are human they aren’t as diverse as classic fantasy races.” I do understand the frequently used example of a wraith or ghost passing through a wall which is impossible for a “normal” human but this is really just a context argument it lacks true weight especially in a world with magic.
You see I’ve always been a comic book fan and one of my favorites was the X-men. Honestly I’ve seen far more diversity in the X-men comic books than I’ve ever seen in any game in terms of differentiating powers or special abilities. In the X-men comic books all the mutants are human but they get all kinds of unique abilities that not only alter their appearance but provide unique super powers. Now the explanation of a specific human faction fallen or regular having a ghostly looking warrior capable of passing through walls is easily explained.
I don’t believe mutations will be in Elemental obviously but an adapted version of the above example can be easily recreated using magic instead of a mutation as the catalyst. So let’s say one of the fallen empires takes a bunch of their convicts and decides to try and make a super soldier using magic. The convicts are exposed to a radical form of death magic that horribly disfigures some of them causing skin to peel off and body temperature to drop drastically. These particular convicts no longer have a heart beat or major organ functions except for the brain which has regressed to an animalistic state. Other convicts have their skin completely dissolve with it being replaced by a semi-permeable gas like substance that can pass through solid objects.
Now I could go on to match these exactly with classic fantasy creatures and races but you get the idea. Case in point with enough effort Elemental could have more diversity with the 12 human factions than any game we’ve ever played but that is purely speculation. With the net result being indistinguishable between my fallen human zombies & ghosts and classic zombies & ghosts the only counter-argument available is you like the classic explanation better than my fictitious example which is valid but obviously nothing more than opinion.
Since magic would have to be used to allow units to walk thru walls than it would not be a natural characteristic. Heck on your theory why not have all game units as human where "magic" can be used to make them more unique. A magic spell gives one human unit fire breath, another human has a magic spell which gives flying, another human unit has a spell giving horns to be a minotaur. One single human image for all game units would save so much time on graphics... but hopefully this explanation allows you to better understand the problem behind only human races.
Of course the 12 human factions may still provide a terrific game with great diversity, but so might Civilization_5 or some other historic war game. The reason for fantasy games is so gamers can play out their fantasy interests and dreams. Some people might finishing reading or watching the chronicles of narnia, the lord of the rings, etc., and seek to play one of these very imaginative races which has characteristics, traits, abilities, etc., that would not exist or make sense from a human race.
Based on everything I've been reading all recruitable city units and even the sovereign will only be human... this means ONLY a human as the boss who raises human cities. So while you may summon ghosts and vampires they are just pawns for serving the human. As I wrote earlier think how sad if fantasy authors could only use humans as the main leaders for their books... so yes it's a little sad us gamers will only have humans as the main sovereigns for this game.
You haven't read "A Song of Ice and Fire" books, right? They are fantasy, they are terribly successful and they have only humans (well, there's some minor magic and strange things here and there, but the leaders and main characters are all human).
Dont know about NTJedi,but i am big fan of the ASoIaF.So far we have Others and Wights,Direwolfs,Dragons,Manticores,Giants and Mammoths,Children of the Forest,Green Mans,Krakens,Lizard Lions,Shadowcats,various mages and more fantastic creatures are mentioned(like Ice Spiders) but we didnt saw them so far.
Am ok with two races in 12 factions for first release of the game,am also big fan of Tolkien,but Orcs,Goblins,Elves and Dwarves are overused in most fantasy game today,so i hope Stardock will create something more original for their factions.
As I wrote earlier: Of course the 12 human factions may still provide a terrific game with great diversity, but so might Civilization_5 or some other historic war game. HOWEVER, think how sad if fantasy authors could only use humans as the main leaders for their books... so yes it's a little sad us gamers will only have humans as the main sovereigns for this game. So while "A Song of Ice and Fire" books might be great I would of course also be interested in other types of fantasy books, thus while playing only human sovereigns might be great it's a little sad we will only have humans as the main sovereigns.
lol, are you really trying to say that using magic as an explanation for all your above example and my original one is less valid than totally made up classic explanations that typically are explained with magic? I don't know, this argument is just lost on me. I mean you do realize that humans at some point in time made up what is now classic fantasy right? This traditionalist mentality that some of you seem to have toward classic fantasy I find perplexing.
Classic explanations for fantasy races are sometimes explained with magic, but I wouldn't say typically... race(s) of dwarves, race(s) of giants, goblins, etc., . While some races (such as lizardmen) may have stories suggesting magic for their existence not all stories for their existence are linked with magic.
Their actual origins is not the point of the discussion. The discussion is to recognize the different fantasy races provide unique traits, skills, resistances, etc., otherwise not naturally available to humans.
This all depends on your source as even one example some sources suggest elves were originally thought of as a race of minor nature and fertility gods. However as I wrote earlier you're falling off the focus of the discussion. The discussion is to recognize the different fantasy races provide unique traits, skills, resistances, etc., otherwise not naturally available to humans.
This is the inherent flaw in your argument which is we are exclusively discussing events, species, and organisms that aren’t natural by their very nature and whose origins are largely subjective. The fact that all traits, abilities, and attributes of which you speak could easily be recreated in humanity alone in a fantasy game utilizing a variety of explanations is my only point in this discussion. Your arguments to me seem largely explanation based in that you like one explanation better than another which there is nothing wrong with but one dimensional.
You could say a specific human race sleeps during the day with vunerabilities to holy artifacts, sunlight and garlic which feeds on the blood of other humans at night and the stronger ones can turn into bats... but anyone reading that definition would instantly say they were vampires(undead) and not human. So while your explanation is more flexible it would not be widely accepted.
Widely-accepted, schmidely-accepted. Unless we see a serious sign that the devs are reconsidering their plan for the playable factions in the base game, this endless wrangling about orcs or no-orcs is really dull, and sometimes annoying whether or not you are in the 'wish we had elves, etc.' camp, which I sort of am, but less so the more of this sort of stuff I read.
I'm particularly disinterested in seeing the devs make radical changes to their plans based on some fear of predicted 'community response.' Let's wait for some real responses. I for one am quite ready to treat the canon Elemental story as its own story, just like I do any fiction author I bother to spend time with. And yes, I've enjoyed fantasy fiction in which most or all 'civilization' was more or less human-based and all the 'cool' creatures were rare things that had no societies to speak of.
If the back story and game mechanics end up hammered into some humpbacked monstrosity in the name of being 'widely accepted,' isn't that just another way of saying let's go mainstream and hope that EA will make a good enough bid to change Brad's mind about selling Stardock?
CLAP!!!
I've been thinking of how to express my opinion on this, and you seem to have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned.
I'm all for expressing new ideas here, the more the better. What I don't think we should is argue over those ideas until beta. Let the devs wrangle over this stuff in house for now. Once the betas out, we pounce!
Several besides myself have posted their concern over the lack races. I also believe its unlikely we'll see a change, but any gamers who would have preferred a variety of fantasy races should express their view via the forms, email or PM to Stardock. I was merely defending and explaining the importance of a variety of fantasy races as compared to a variety of human races.
The thing is that is not so sad. There are quite a lot good fantasy books out there where humans make mostly or all the characters.
So, I don't think it's a big problem that we have only "humans" in this game at the start. First, because there's no logical reason a game with elves/dwarves would be more fun. And second because it helps the devs and artists as they have one less problem to tackle, so they can put their efforts improving other areas of the game.
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