This is not meant to bring anyone down. I just hope some people will be able to point out some things that will alleviate some of my concerns that Elemental is not going to be "Master of Magicky" enough for me.
To me the thing that made MoM so great, was it had that "just one more turn!" magic that could have you awake at 3:00 in the morning, you to go to work if 4 hours AND YOU DIDN'T CARE.
Don't get me wrong - the two Stardock games I have played, GalCiV2 and SOASE are great games. And I don't even know how to quantify it, I don't know exactly what it is that gives a game "the magic". I really like a lot of what I am seeing. but a lot of what I am hearing such as no other races but Men and Fallen, and no disrespect to Total War, but it really seems like they are aiming for Total War with fireballs and dragons. And if that is the case, that will be a cool game that I enjoy. And I realize the game isn't even in really alpha yet, so I could be jumping the gun on getting my fears up. But here are some of the things that I am afraid will be missing from the game I hoped for:
1. The abililty to play as lots of different races and for it to be truly completely different. In MoM, playing as High Men, halflings, orcs, etc etc truly made each game a new experience. They didn't just say "every race has to have a light infantry, an archer, a heavy infantry, a catapult" and then give them different graphics. They really made each race it's own thing with unique strengths and weaknesses. It seems like just Men and Fallen is going to leave me wishing for more variety. Again I haven't seen anything so here is hoping when beta comes out I am wrong.
2. Another thing that made MoM almost infinitely replayable were the 30 or so options you could choose from at game start up. things like alchemy that would allow you to convert mana and gold into each other with no loss. Or starting on Myrror. O being a Warlord (combat bonus) and some of them had prerequisites, such as to be an Arch Mage (I think) you had to have at least one book of every school of magic. Then there was selecting the books of magic and preselecting your guaranteed spells. All of this combined with number 1 above really meant you had a universe of infinite possibilites.
3. MoM had a huge spellbook of over 100 spells. and again they were not just lame "ice bolt does 10 ICE damage and fire bolt does 10 FIRE damage" stupid essentially duplicate spells. Thre were some really well thought out and different spells that just seemed to fit the school that they came from. So far, it seems like the spell selection is going to be much less deep in Elemental.
I hope these are all unfounded concerns. I was a huge Master of Orion 3 fanboi until the actually released the game. So maybe it is just once bitten, twice shy. And I am really looking forward to getting a look at this, it is just that so much that I have heard so far has given me some concerns it is not going to be the game I had hoped.
Wow, it looks like a lot of people have had some of the same feelings I was having based on the number of replies in a short time period.
I appreciate all of the responses, but especially the ones from the SD guys - there are some GREAT clarifications there that have largely alleviated my concerns and have me back in "OMG I can't wait to beta test!" mode. Thanks very much! I also was definitely not going to not give this thing a look, I am preordered and in for beta and the long haul. I just had a few things that appear to have been misconceptions or unfounded concerns. I am sure that I will have plenty of input on beta.
I have been waiting for years for the game that I hope this will be. I know it is not going to be exactly the game I have in my head (it won't be EXACTLY the game that anyone at Stardock currently has in their head either!) I just hope the surprises are more pleasant than not, I am VERY happy to hear it is purely TBS without the RTS. I was also starting to get the idea that tactical battles were going to be quite RTS-ish, and I am glad to see that is not the case.
Why exactly are you even following this game Darkodinplus? It's been touted as turn based from the beginning. It's by Brad, the guy behind the turn based GalCiv series. Not that I want to turn someone away that might enjoy the game, but if you're an action junkie, why are you here? Everything you mention seems like a way to ruin the game and turn it into yet another RTS.
Well let me start of with a brief synopsis I’m an RTS guy by nature I enjoy fluid, dynamic, and evolving situations. I dislike breaks in action or anything that causes a disruption in the linear flow of time during a game. From this I can see where you might assume I wouldn’t like TBS or Elemental by extension but fortunately for me I also have a set of core beliefs as a gamer that supersedes everything else I may like or dislike about a game.
I’ve bought GalCiv2 + both expansions, now because I bought those does that mean I loved every single aspect of these games and thought they had no room for improvement? Answer; of course not one of my biggest problems with TBS games is their static, uninspired, and frankly dull combat when they are on a pure turn based system. War or battle by its vary nature is chaotic and has server time restraints which is more accurately simulated by an RTS.
However this is were I set myself apart from some of you more fanatical anti-RTS guys, you see I adapt to situations even situations I don’t necessarily like and having a few features here and there I don’t like depending on what they are isn’t enough to cause me to loss interest in a game. I’ll put up with a lot of crap no matter how dull or stagnant for a good plot and good game-play which I believe Elemental will have an abundance of just apparently not in tactical combat.
It does however seem to me that Stardock is slowly but surely working there way in the right direction since I do believe war in elemental will be 3.5X10 to 64 power more entertaining than Galciv2 so called “war”. So in short I’m following Elemental for my reasons and my reasons alone and I shall offer criticism where I deem appropriate regardless of how jaded or opposed some people in this community my react.
This public service announcement was brought to you by Darkodin the man with a plan.
Ok, I get it. I think you're completely missing the point of turn based games. This is chess/go/ASL/<board game here> on a grand scale. Combat isn't an exercise in reflexes or time constraints. Combat isn't supposed to be some "acccurate simulation" of combat. It's an exercise in thought, tactics, and strategy. There are zillions of games if you want your "accurate simulation". Turned based isn't some flaw you need to try and fix, it's an niche of strategy that has it's own merit as a genre.
I've no problem if you want to look into something other than your norm. I do have a problem with an RTS person coming into a turn based game's forum and saying "Hey, make it an RTS!". I don't go into Command and Conquer's forums and tell them to improve it by making it turn based. Nor do I go into Halo forums and tell them the combat should be pausable or some such.
Quoting ckessel, I do have a problem with an RTS person coming into a turn based game's forum and saying "Hey, make it an RTS!".
Would you mind pointing out where I said "Stardock should make Elemental an RTS"? You can't unfortunately because I never said that I did interpret some things Brad had said however as Elemental having RTS elements which Brad has pointed out was incorrect. I did say I would like for Stardock to make a dedicated RTS game in the future perhaps you mistook that for me saying Elemental should be an RTS.
Case in point it is doubtful if anything is beyond my comprehension I do enjoy a good game of chess or checkers which I played before I even had a PC. Also my norm as a gamer is any game I buy I was simply stating my nature lends itself well to the RTS style of game-play opposed to the interval nature of TBS games. Regardless, Elemental has yet to introduce any information that has dramatically turned me off so it is still on my planned buy list for the immediate future and as I said before I will offer suggestions / criticisms as I and I alone see fit.
I'm in the same boat as Denryu and a little concerned where "the only units you can create in Elemental are either men or Fallen". We're concerned Elemental has been planned to be more of a good_men verses evil_men TBS game, but with spells and then add an occasional monster.
While the Orcs, Elves, Lizardmen, Dwarves, Undead, etc., are nothing more than a faction with different presets at the programmatic level... each of them provides a unique explanation for the strengths and weaknesses of their units. For example typically the Undead will have a weakness specific to holy attacks yet strengths for map_movement and unique attacks such as vampires draining life then Lizardmen typically will thrive within swamps yet seriously suffer within the cold terrains. The types of food each of them eat will also be very different. The strengths and weaknesses of each is much more extensive than my brief examples and these range of differences provide great levels of strategic gameplay depth. With the game Elemental only having men and evil men(Fallen)... many of these unique strengths and weaknesses won't be available since men don't share the same strengths and weaknesses as other races.
Earlier it was written our Channeller can be very powerful like Sauron... so shouldn't we be allowed to have large armies which are not human like Sauron? Considering the game was originally inspired from Master of Magic, I hope this would be at least possible from modding.
I don't see why it,s so important to have many different creatures/factions in this game.
Most fantasy games all have them and now we have a game that is doing it a bit different. Which I find to be good. I find a world of mostly men fighting it off quite refreshing. I read on the board that creatures will be very rare. If we have dwarves and elves, creatures do not become rare they become common place. I'll miss my lizardman from MOM but atthe same time I will find the game quite refreshing.
I'll wait and see how it turns out. I have confidence in Stardock.
quote who="Frogboy" reply="22" id="2118135"]BTW, one thing to remember: It's not playing orcs or high elves that made MoM have each game feel different. It is that players had massive amounts of choices from.[/quote]
This.
For me, the replay value came from the idea that you could mix together arbitrary combinations at the start, and that would force you into playing very different strategies. For example, you could pick up all the books from one school, and immediately start with powerful spells in that domain (e.g. go all sorcery and get flying invisible warships very early). Or you could put together any mix of pieces that seemed appealing, knowing that certain things had a lot of synergy (for example warlord + halflings made some very powerful slingers).
As you played the game more and knew more about winning strategies, you could handicap yourself by chosing somewhat odd mixes (or not using all your initial picks), and then trying to win in spite of it.
One of the things that really strengthens this kind of replay is that the initial choice of spellbooks limits the total scope of research you can do. If you didn't pick up any nature spellbooks, you would never get any nature spells (barring a lucky drop from a well-guarded node.)This really leaves each game with a very different feel.
On the same note why not create a fantasy game without magic spells, but still allow the creatures? Or create a fantasy game without the magic items, but still allow the spells? The list goes on and on... but each of these variables are pieces of fantasy. On the same note sure you could pickup a fantasy book which is only men verses men, but with spells.... and it might be a good interesting book, but it's still a book with LESS fantasy compared to the average fantasy books.
I think that is slanting solem's argument a bit. He didn't say 'no creatures' or 'no factions', he said 'why is it as important to have so many'. It is very important to have multiple factions, but really you don't need to go crazy with it. Most games get away with 3 these days, and there was a time that having more than 2 factions was very impressive (starcraft raised that bar and now we can't seem to go back)
Look at Age of Empires 2, I have only seen most of those factions in play because I made an effort to play every faction. And even then I wouldn't be surprised if I missed one or two.
And I see many reasons you may want magic to be rare or uncommon in a fantasy universe. That is how I usually play my D&D anyway.
You don't need 100 jelly bean flavors to make a bag feel 'mixed'. Skittles gets away with only like 6 flavors in its bags, and it feels like they cover a good spectrum. And just in case you get bored, the company has released a few expansion...err.... I mean .... other bags... since the original red bag releases so many years ago (I don't even know what to call the teal and purple skittle bags in relation to the original) (yay bad metaphors!)
I'll reply to 3 first to get it out of the way, so I can focus the next few hours on 1
Huge spellbook only matters if it has usable spells. In MOM, some spells were either completely broken (Not working: Flying Fortress, Cloak of Fear, doing the opposite thing: Subversion, corrupting savegames: Resurrect, crashing the game: Call Lightning) or were just plain crap. (Most of Death spells - for unknown reason many games make negative enchantments require to pass a Magic Resistance check, but positive buffs which often do pretty much the same thing have no such requirement. In MOM, many races and magical creatures had high MR, making death magic spells 1) very random and unpredictable 2) very unlikely to work)
Really, think about how many MOM spells you actually used. Most people I know used few easy, time-tested strategies, like death war trolls, slingers with lionheart, 11 death books and wraiths, or paladins. Many people just used these because they were so much easier than everything else. Few liked balanced, but still decent races like Nomad or Beastmen. Even fewer played with gnolls or lizardmen. I did.
Some races were just plain and bland and lacking of any advantages, like orcs which were like high men, but worse.
Furthermore, MOM spell choice was effectively drastically limited on Impossible. AI spell use on Impossible was invariably very similar - they would either firebolt you to death, or psionic blast you, or fry you with lightning, or drain life your units with ridiculous power. This effectively meant you were reduced to using spells like Resist Elements, Counterspell, Drain Power, Mana Leak (works wonders against enemy shamans and great with Counterspell). If you wanted to stay alive, that is.
I claim that using 'colorful' races actually reduces variety ! What can you say about most implementations of elves ? Good at bows, good at magic, perhaps stealth. That's it. Humans - plain and average. Orcs - big, strong, stupid. In most games, these races are clearly defined and lacking any depth. They mostly just borrow heavily from Tolkien and can't think of anything that makes it interesting.
Ironically, the game that showed me an amazing variety of 'races' and flavour is Dominions3. I call it ironic because 95% of 'races' are actually various flavours of humans. With just humans, Dominions 3 is orders of magnitude better at gameplay variety and flavour than so-called 'original games'. That's why I believe Elemental can do just fine with 1.5 races.
Time to back my claims up. I'll do it with quotes from Dominions 3. On Linux (there's a native version even for 64 bit - take notes, Stardock !) you can get these messages with strings dom3.
Machaka is an old sacral kingdom where the well-being of the land is thought to be dependent on the will of the king. The king is the highest priest of the kingdom, but should he fail in his duties, he is sacrificed and replaced by one of his numerous sons or brothers. The priests of the kingdom are the true rulers of the land. Religious ceremonies, judicial tasks and the gathering of intelligence are all performed by the Eyes, Ears, and Voices of the Lord. Only warfare is handed over to secular commanders. Machaka uses light infantry, archers and heavy hoplites second only to those of Arcoscephale. In the forests of Machaka, giant spiders are caught and used as mounts. One other area is left untouched by the priests: magic. Simple witch doctors living outside villages grudgingly serve the priests. In the depths of the God Forest lies a lonely mountain filled with caves. Here resides the true power of Machaka - the Black Sorcerers, Sorceresses and their Spider Warriors. Machakans prefer hot lands.
(Inspired by North Africa. Machaka has poor archers, no real cavalry, but great battle mages, very fast infantry, cultic assasins)
Early Ulm:
Ulm is a land of cold mountains and dense forests. These wild lands were settled by proud and fierce barbarians in ages past. Their ancestry has made the inhabitants of the forests stronger and more resilient to the cold climate than ordinary men. Upon becoming men, youngsters are given a single knife and left in the forest at first snowfall. Those who survive the winter are allowed to return to their family.The barbarians of Ulm live in small settlements ruled by chieftains and warrior smiths who search for the Enigma of Steel. Steel is a sacred metal and its maker is as well. Smithing has become equivalent of making a sacrifice to the Lord and no other culture has developed such a skill in magical forging.
Middle Ulm:
Ulm is a young kingdom, risen from the Ulmic tribes conquered by the fallen Empire of Ermor. From the ashes of Ermor emerged a new kingdom true to its ancient legacy, the Enigma of Steel. Where Marignon relied on religion to build a kingdom, Ulm relied on steel. The mines of Ulm are famous for their riches and the smiths of Ulm work the iron into the blacksteel armor used by the knights and infantry of Ulm. The people of Ulm are heavily built by human standards. Their infantry use full chain or plate armor made of blacksteel. The feared Black Knights of Ulm are the most heavily armored troops known to man. The leaders of Ulm have never approved of magic and only the Master Smiths are allowed to use it. The smiths are used to working in conditions that are magically unfavorable and are therefore not adversely affected by provinces that have a strong Drain dominion. The smiths craft armor and weaponry for lords and kings, but the strength of steel is preferred to magic. Even religion is of secondary importance in Ulm.
Late Ulm:
After years of civil war, the Iron Kingdom crumbled. During the Night of the Treason a great Malediction was placed upon the kingdom. The forests became dark and hostile. Wolves and creatures even worse stalked the land. Slowly the kingdom recovered, but it was not what it once was. The knightly order was all but destroyed and the Master Smiths had disappeared. The secrets of blacksteel were forgotten. An order of Black Priests emerged in Ulm. They formed an Iron Cult and forbade the use of magic. Magic outside religion was announced to be sacrilegious and the few surviving Master Smiths were put to the flames. Although magery is forbidden, there are some fortune tellers and members of the Order of the Illuminated Ones who secretly ply their trade in the arcane.
Sauromatia:
Sauromatia is a nation of nomadic warrior tribes ruled by women. Men and women fight side by side and all prominent tribes are ruled by warrior queens. This is a legacy of the Sauromatians merging with the Amazon tribes in times past. The Amazons leaders were not accepted, because they were not warriors, but they influenced the Sauromatians and women warriors gained power and prestige. Only the tribe of the Androphags has totally rejected the notion of female leadership. The Androphags are ruled by ancient Witch Kings who introduced cannibalism and man-flaying to the Sauromatians. The Androphags also use hydras from the Marshes of Pythia in warfare.
Marignon:
late Agartha:
In dark caverns under the Roots of the Earth a strange race of one-eyed humanoids once evolved. Untouched by the sun they became known to humans as the Pale Ones. When humans first met these pale giants, it was in war. With the destruction of the false god of the Pale Ones, peace was established and humans moved down into the caverns of Agartha. Here they found fabulous riches and ancient secrets. The humans replaced the Pale Ones and now all Agarthans are pale-skinned humans with large eyes. Everything left by the Ancients became subject to worship in Agartha. At first, statues of the Ancients were adored and animated by the Golem Crafters, but most of the statues were destroyed during the great war and new forms of worship have evolved. The mummified remains of the now-extinct Pale Ones are worshipped and reanimated by necromancer-priests. While the mummies of Pale Ones are sacred, the human dead are not treated with the same respect. Used for menial tasks and warfare, the dead of Agartha now walk side by side with the living.
middle T'ien Chi:
The Celestial Empire of T'ien Ch'i is ancient. Since the founding of the Empire, peace has reigned and a Bureaucracy of great efficiency has evolved. Ministers and officials chosen by skill rather than birth govern the Empire. The Emperor and his family are considered divine, but are not involved in the administration. The cavalry of T'ien Ch'i is well known and the Bureaucracy has enforced a conscription policy that has been very successful. A magic tradition called The Way is practiced by hermits and scholars in the kingdom. Prominent Masters of the Way come to the Heavenly Gate in the capital to be ordained as Celestial Masters. These mage-priests can summon heavenly beings from the Celestial Sphere to serve the Empire.
It's not even the tip of the iceberg.
It's clear from playing the game, (even demo) that for the developer it's a labour of love. Despite having almost only humans ('races' are actually called 'nations', even if not all of them are actually human) Dominions 3 has flavour and variety second to none. If Elemental has even 10% of variety Dominions has, it will be a great achievement.
A game with a race of good_men and a race of evil_men is the same thing you can find within a historical war game based on true events. Sure the game will have spells, but the concern is for the lack of fantasy.
Sure Age of Empires 2 was a great game and even spells where monks could steal units, but it's clearly a game with LESS fantasy compared to other fantasy games... many would not even classify Age of Empires 2 as fantasy. Considering one of the biggest influences for Elemental:WoM was the original Master of Magic... it seems scary we can only play as men or evil men when being compared to what we could have done within the original game MoM.
Why can't we have the option where a game of Elemental can include a powerful Necromancer channeller where the majority of his army is the undead, then another powerful channeller similar to Sauron where the majority of his army is goblins and orcs, then another channeller who controls armies of lizardmen, etc., etc., .
I see no reason why the majority of our armies must only be men.
Yes, this can be fun... but to have everyone play D&D where magic was rare then it would not have become as popular as what we see today. Having major pieces of fantasy more rare within a game is still LESS fantasy as compared to the average fantasy game... it might still be a fun game, but it will have LESS fantasy.
If Elemental has even 10% of variety Dominions has, it will be a great achievement.
Well one of the major differences with Dominions_3 and Elemental:WoM is that within Elemental:WoM we're hearing the mythical creatures will be RARE. While within Dominions_3 there's a healthy mix of mythical creatures and by mid_game they are COMMON... heck it's even likely to find Amphibian (water&land) beings to recruit along the shoreline.
Since mythical creatures will be RARE the concern is the vast majority of battles
will ONLY be MEN verses MEN.
each of them provides a unique explanation for the strengths and weaknesses of their units.
This could easily be mimicked with one of the 12 factions Stardock has in mind while they may not be the traditional undead or lizardmen you describe this provides the opportunity for Stardock to come up with deeper and more compelling reasons for a particular faction’s weaknesses.
NTjedi, I think the major flaw in you argument is you seem to equate the fun factor directly to the apparent amount of fantasy in a particular fantasy game. Just because a game has tons of traditional fantasy content does not make it a better game. The only thing that affects the diversity, variety, and quality of a game or its factions is the amount of effort the developers put into it. Undead, lizardmen, etc are meaningless if the developer doesn’t put in the required effort to make them unique and interesting. Stardock has chosen to put their effort into two categories of humans that will break down into 12 factions.
The concern is the lack of fantasy type units... compare this against other fantasy games such as Dominions_3, AgeofWonders:SM, Master of Magic, or Heroes_3! Can humans walk thru walls the same as ghosts... not naturally. Can humans grow back a second head the same as a hydra... not naturally. Can humans breathe under water the same as amphibian units... not naturally. By having ONLY humans it seriously limits the type of nations and their abilities.
Here's a list of the true diversity within Dominions_3:
Now lets show that Dominions_3 is NOT only human races:
Late Age Ermor: Pure Undead
ALL Ages of Pythium: Recruitable Hydras
ALL Ages of Pangaea: Recruitable Minatours & Centaurs
ALL Ages of Caelum: Majority of Recruitables fly and have wings
ALL Ages of C'tis: Majority of Recruitables are Lizardmen
Middle Age Machaka: Their spellcasters turn into large spiders
ALL Ages with several nations of GIANTS... big difference between men and giants.
ALL Ages with several underwater nations.
Will Elemental : WoM also provide this type of diversity ? That's the concern.
I'm so glad this game is turn based, I prefer strategy before tactics!
I am not so concerned about the races. It's two races, but each race have 6 different sub races/factions, that's 12 different factions. Not many fantasy strategy games have 12 factions to choose from guys, and I'm sure the expansions will give us even more.
And remember; all these strange, fantastic and magical creatures will be in the game too, but you'll have to catch them and domisticate them before they can be used in your armies......
The amount of magic in the world will have much to do with how YOU spend it.
If you want to horde your essence and be one-man force of destruction, then yes, your armies will probably be more mundane with typical knights and bowmen serving as your cannon fodder.
On the flip side, if you imbew various creatures with magic and twist them to your bidding, thats when you'll see the great fantasy armies rise up (at the cost of your personal might).
The difference is that, in EWoM, those creatures required something fantastic to come about. You can't just train 50 angels, or hire 100 dragons. If it's magicial, it needs to feel special.
And there'll be plenty of monsterous creatures roaming the land from the war of the cataclysim, so I think there'll be enough 'fantasy' in the game for everyone
I just hope your channeler's mana can be slowely refilled again if you controll certain mana sources on the map, or build certain expensive buildings.
It should be hard to come by, but you shouldnt have just one amount of mana the whole game, and that's it, it must be possible to get some more of it.
Thanks for the information... this helps calm one of the big concerns.
I wouldn't expect to control armies of angels or dragons, I estimate only a powerful player might control one or two... those I can understand as being rare.
Interesting. So if you hoard your magic essence, your channeler is permanently stronger.
But what do you gain if you use up some of your essence on creatures ? Do you get an ability to recruit some special creatures, or a one-time recruitment of X creatures of type Y ? The former seems more fair. The latter would sound like a shallow option for rushers.
Why do you think those are mutally exclusive possible ways essence might work? Perhaps when you imbue specific territories, one of the things you might gain is a fantastic creature recruitment ability. And even though champions appear to be by definition a 'one-time recruitment,' perhaps some champions might themselves be able to recruit fantastic creatures. It might even be possible to build a quest that requires a champion to die (or just sacrifice some of the essence you imbued in him or her) but then provides a 'supply' of ghost warriors, giant eagle couriers, or whatever.
These are excellent suggestions !!
Aye, in the hands of the competitive RTS gamer, that word 'balance' can become a fearsome mace. Especially in the cold, turn-based netherworld of the developers forum, where it deals +1 pride damage to all opposing win/loss ratios.
Why do you think those are mutally exclusive possible ways essence might work? Perhaps when you imbue specific territories, one of the things you might gain is a fantastic creature recruitment ability.
Because that's how it works in lots of games. My concern is that a one-time recruitment option would likely lose its relevance as the game progresses, making it mostly an option for rushers. I don't think it's an interesting strategic choice. Far too many games have a simplistic division like this. You either invest in your future, or you try to rush your opponent.
One time creature summons will require a spell to be learned first. If implemented, recruitable creatures would probably require a special resource tile and a 'Subjugation' spell. So really, neither path would be immediatly available, but anything finite will tend to be more powerful than its limitless counterpart.
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