Edit: I added an idea of how I'd like the issue fixed at the bottom of this post. It's basically the same thing I posted in one of the posts below, but I suspect nobody in IC/SD has time to reap through these walls of letters, so I copy-pasted th idea here for easier reference.
This is a hard one to fix. Every other matchup is more or less fine, maybe requiring some minor balancing (nerf dmg of that thing, buff hps of the other, etc.).
However, there is a serious problem when you're a Vasari assaulting another Vasari player, who got 'entrenched' (as in - has a deployed starbase with 2-offence, 3-defense +some other upgrades).
You see, when a Tec/Advent player assaults another player, they can use the specialised torpedo cruisers against the defender. On the other hand, the defender has no use of these units. So this is a tactical difference that can be exploited.Please note that torpedo cruisers have a superior range to that of a starbase, which means that the defending fleet has to move out of their starbase's shadow a little to defend it. If the starbase is orkulus, it will float in and engage the cruisers. Still, if you pay the same amount of money on torpedo cruisers as the defender paid for the starbase (with upgrades), that fleet will easily wipe the starbase. So it's a low tech-level hard counter there.
Also, when a Vasari player assaults another faction's gravity well, they can construct their offensive starbase out of the defending one's reach. Two options are available for the defender:- move out and kill the starbase hatchling. This is very similiar to defending against torpedo cruisers, only the defender doesn't really have to do anything, because an unbuilt starbase doesn't pose a threat yet.- wait for their SB to get built while preparing defenses. You have to understand that building a fresh 3k HP, 149dmg Pulse cannon naked starbase is by no means a game won for the Vasari. They still have to take out the enemy starbase and the defenders can bring torpedo cruisers to eliminate the threat. So this is no easy win for the vasari, but more of an all-or-nothing gamble.
The only screwed up match is Vasari vs Vasari. Simple reason - everything that works for the assaulting team also works for the defenders, but:- the defenders can have minefields ready- the defenders can have a beefed up starbase ready that will mow down the one being built by attackers- the defenders have tactical structures set up- the defender's (upgraded) starbase moves and the attacker has to set up its own in the same gravwell.The last point is what makes Orkulus viable against Tec or Advent starbases, but it kills the offensive capability of it against an already deployed Orkulus. Why? Because the attacker's starbase will still be under construction when the well-developed defender's one drives by and starts tearing it apart.
All of this means the assaulting Vasari have absolutely no trick thy can use against the defenders that the defenders can't use against them. An assaulting TEC/Adv can use torpedo cruisers against any defenders without fear of having these used against him. A Vasari assaulting Tec/Advent can build his orkulus out of the enemy SB's reach. Nothing like that works in Vas vs. Vas match.
Some say Kostura is the attacker's advantage, but it's way too far in the tech tree and way too expensive to be viable here. Reason: everything one needs to down a starbase in any matchup except Vasari vs Vasari (torpedo cruisers, Orkulus) is limited to tech-level-4 bracket, while Kostura is tech-8. That and lots of other reasons mentioned in the spam below make the Kostura more of an end-game trick than a counter to a deployed starbase.
Hard one to fix... any ideas?
EDIT : my idea of fixing the issue. Please note that I DO NOT want a torpedo cruiser for Vasari.Balance doesn't require everyone to have exactly the same tools.
Protective Nanites - research, tech level 3-4 in fortification tree."Jarun Migrator is equipped with a payload of special nanites which temporarily shield the Orkulus Starbase from heavy defensive fire when deployed in fortified enemy systems."Requires: enemy Starbase in orbit (built or in construction).Duration: Construction period and up to 120 seconds afterwards, if a hostile Starbase is present.Effects:- max Shield Mitigation increased by 5%- Shield regeneration 10 sp/sec - Enemy Structure damage reduced 100% (game mechanic wise; that would result in 50% actual reduction applied to damage coming from defender's structures)My reasoning - such an upgrade would be of little use against TEC or Advent, because the shield mitigation bonus and regeneration are minor, plus you are going to deploy your orkulus out of their SB's reach anyway. The damage reduction would help the starbase survive against a defender's starbase early, but the Protective Nanites would fade off before you are able to develop the Orkulus enough to cause any serious damage to the defender's Starbase. Without at least level 2 attack and level 1 defense, an orkulus cannot scratch a half-developed argonev (try for yourselves, a lvl6 Vulkoras does better!). So this damage reduction would actually be effective only against Vasari, because wherever you start building your Assaulting Orkulus, the defending one is gonna start pounding on it just a few seconds later.
This is just an IDEA of the type of tweak I'd like to see. Something that doesn't say "Boosts orkulus offensive capability against another vasari" (cause that would be retarded in a number of ways), but something that would sound sensible in general, yet truly shine against a defending orkulus in particular. And no torpedo cruisers for Vasari please.
Except not really. Mines have an activation time, which means in the worst case you can send a few suicide scouts in to clear a hole for your jumping fleet.
Since the Vasari base moves, the invading fleet can build it at the edge of the grav well. That means to stop it, the defender would have to move away from their own tactical structures. At the same time, the Vasari are best suited to take out starbases without anti-structure cruisers, with Nano-Disassembler and phase missiles/subverters. Furthermore, the starbase is painfully slow, giving your bombers a lot of lead-in time to get its shields down.
Also, the attacker has the Kotsura.
Yeah, well, they've got the Kostura. Which in entrenchment, creates a phase stabilizer, allowing you to jump past the starbase, ignoring it. Or you can use the Kostura/s to disable and damage the starbase as well.
Kostura is not quite a viable argument here. You can have a well upgraded starbase in, like 30 minutes? While Kostura requires craploads of money spent on 8 weapons labs, expensive research and loltardedly expensive cannon itself.You have to sacrifice your whole economy if you want to rush to kostura. It's not something you can dish out of your lunchbox at any time. On the other hand, a starbase with 2/2 colony pods becomes one neat money machine.
So I'd stay away from Kostura for the sake of the argument. Torpedo cruisers and the starbase itself can be fielded earlier and with far less sacrifice in your economical sector. I agree that once you have a kostura, every enemy planet is one step from being conquered. The problem - kostura won't solve all the issues. You still need a force to take and *hold* the planet you're assaulting and a force to defend your own ass in the meantime.
As for annatar's ideas, every single one of them may be used by the defender as well as the attacker. Particularly the bombers aren't such an easy bet now with the phasic trap working for the defender. Basically you have to keep your bombers in the docks until the defending starbase is right at your doorstep, because otherwise the defender's phasic traps will have them locked until the end of battle.Space Whale, subverters and phase missiles are as much of an advantage for the attacker as they are for the defender, because any of those tricks may be used with just as much success on the attacker's force as they can be used on the defender.
The only real advantage the attacker has above the defender is the Kostura - which, unfortunately, is the most endgame weapon one can find. Seriously, if your enemy has a kostura fielded in the first hour of the game, it basically means he has no fleet and that you can simply ride over him with anything.
Excuse me, but you keep mentioning the long range cruisers fielded by the other races. Yes, vasari do not have one. The difference? The threat level of those things vs. a Vasari SB goes through the floor. Why? Because the Vasari SB can move.
The difficulty of any other race assulting a Vasari gravity well is thus at least, if not more difficult, than a Vasari player attempting the same thing, due to the relative fragility of a cruiser vs. a SB.
Put another way: Because the range advantage of long range cruisers is nullified by Vasari SB movement, they provide very little advantage. They will soon be destroyed. A SB, with it's superior HP and armor, will do more damage in a similar situation.
In the end, you're complaining about the difficulty of assulting a fortified Vasari gravity well in entrenchment. We all complain about this. It's hard. That's why this one is called entrenchment.
-Adventus supera omni
The range advantage of a long range cruiser is also beaten by a TEC colony ship. That +25% range really helps out a starbase.
Ever notice how the Kotsura has no research pre-reqs? 8 labs is hardly much of an issue. Moreover, they allow you to take out any number of Orkulus bases anywhere after the initial investment, while the opposing player has to build one in each well, else you can just leave the death star system for last and jump everywhere else with the Kotsura's phase node creation.
Besides, if anyone is going to be spending the first 30 minutes getting a well upgraded starbase, they're not going to have any fleet to speak of which essentially nullifies the majority of your initial argument and leaves it at your fleet vs their starbase, in which case your fleet would win, especially since the Orkulus super abilities require a fairly impressive lab count as well.
I agree with this....the assault cruisers die fast. The only place I find them a worthwhile investment is in gravwells with very little fighter coverage and against the non moving starbases. The Orkulus just gobbles them up. They are great for taking out baby starbases, but then again, your fleet could do that fairly easily too.
The Kostura doesn't do much damage to the starbases, in my experience...even if you fire with many Kostura's...the reason it is so useful is it shuts down all the other static defenses and if you fire enough shots, does significant damage to defending ships. This gives you a chance to kill the Orkulus.
Yup. Exactly. The complaint in the OP was Starbase + defenses + fleet vs your fleet and fledling starbase. If you can nullify the defenses + fleet portion, you gain a lot of ground.
Haha. Don't play Vasari?
By the way, does anybody know the exact shutdown time on a starbase particularly when you bomb it with a Kostura? I suppose 3 minutes as with all other structures would be imba?
OK...just for the record, I totally agree with you that Vasari vs Vasari is difficult. I have other posts in other threads where I mention this is like trench warfare where it is difficult for either side to make progress. As you mentioned, trying to get your own offensive Orkulus in play while dealing with an enemy fleet, a full grown Orkulus, other static defenses, enemy strikecraft, and probably mines is a massive pain in the ass.
Now, to respond to your comments:
They do a lot of damage, but they also go down pretty fast to fighters...faster than they can be repaired. I think it would be nice if they had a bit more range....but whatever.....I find that carriers work better for taking down an Orkulus without losing tons of ships, it just takes a long time.
They do not get shut down like static defenses. They might get briefly stunned, like a ship, but for the most part they shrug offf Kostura strikes.
I don't fully understand what you mean by first thing in the morning and survive 15 minutes. I don't think anyone said to rush for Kosturas. They are very effective to take the remaining super fortified worlds after you control most of the map. When a team starts losing they often have a nasty habit of putting multiple player's starbases in the same system, hiding their remaining fleets there, and waiting for you by their PJI's, static defenses, and mines. It can be suicidal to directly invade these systems, even with a very powerful fleet. Kosturas are invaluable to soften up, or even destroy all of the static defenses and defending ships so the starbases can be attacked. It is an endgame strategy.
The best thing you can do in vasari vs vasari is upgrade your missile turrets to debuff with passive regen block. This is huge penalty for a starbase. A bunch of those missile batteries will kill a starbase that has not be upgraded well,e ven if it has weapon upgrade, unelss it gets healed or backs out for a long time.
I think the moving starbase is a huge advantage. so, if i have to decide between Topedocruiser and moving starbase i will choose the moving starbase everytime. As Vasari against Vasarie its harder, but your opponent has the same Problem. So may the better tactic win...
The *advantage* that TEC have above Vasari when assaulting a Vasari player are the Torpedo Cruisers. YES! They ARE an advantage, because they can start pounding on the Vasari starbase from the very first moment they exit the phase lane. They are ready to fight, unlike the Vas starbase. And the defender's Orkulus will make short work of anything unprepared for it, wherever it may be in the gravwell.
What makes the Vasari Starbase a viable counter to other starbases (being buildable some distance away to fly in and kill when it's ready) becomes its biggest disadvantage against another Vasari Starbase, simply because it cannot do ANY harm to it for the first two* minutes and is only a far weaker copy of its target in the battle ahead.
Back to Kostura for a minute.
Now that I hear Kostura doesn't turn off the defending Orkulus for any sensible period of time, I think it is not a big advantage when attacking an entrenched world. Yes, you turn off the tactical structures. Yes you harm the ships a little bit. But you still have to cope with that big flying thing. Fifteen seconds of stun will not win the game for you. It is your fleet against his fleet and his well upgraded starbase. Attacker is at a great disadvantage, as he has no trick he can use that the defender can't use on him, while the defender has a developed starbase.
Ok so we're left with using the Kostura to skip the enemy starbase and jump right into his territory.
Here's a list of things you have to do just to be able to send your fleet into his territory using the Kostura:
+ 8 weapons labs+ Kostura Research+ Kostura Construction (8000 credits!)+ 5 Imperial Labs+ Phase Stabilizer research+ Phase stabilizer construction
Ok now you can send your brave fleet into his territory. Bam, jump, wooosh, whatup. You're in the lion's cage.NOW WHAT? Your Kostura will reload for 6 minutes. You are most likely NOT going to colonize the planet anytime soon, because YOU ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS TERRITORY = HIS CULTURE OWNZ YOU.You are also going to have company pretty soon. YOU'RE ATTACKING VASARI, remember? They have phase stabilizers too. Even if you siwftly kill the one in your current gravwell, the enemy still has all of his units at most two jumps away from your little invasion. Also, this is his territory, so he's likely to have a few frigate factories in the surrounding gravwells as well (and if not, what will stop him from building some?).
You have to keep your army in touch for reinforcements, otherwise they are already screwed up. What options do you have?1) Have a level 6 Marauder ready. Ok. add that to your preparations list. and hope the Marauder doesn't get killed in five seconds when the defender brings his fleet.2) Quickly build a starbase and equip it with phase stabilizers. In that case add the following to your preparations list:+ research starbase+ research starbase phase stabilizers+ have a migrator ready along with the money you will need for that starbase and its upgrades.
and all of that just to establish a foothold in enemy territory, surrounded by HIS planets, HIS culture, HIS factories. Great....... if anything, this tactic is viable against Tec or Advent, because they can't use phase stabilizers to swiftly counter your attack. But against Vasari... it's like a suicide.
Compare this please to TEC's invasion strategy:+ 3 war labs+ build a bunch of torpedo cruisers (one lvl 3 research?)+ build some carriers with bombers and garda's for enemy fighters, plus 4-5 hoshikos for repair. (All of that requires only low level research)+ send that in for carnage.
+ keep sending torpedo cruisers from different angles in packs of 4 so the starbase has to turn around each time.GG.
* - I'm not sure just how long the Vas starbase builds in an enemy gravwell. It isn't fast enough to catch the defender with his pants down, that's for sure.
PS. The reason I wrote this wall of text above is to show you how limitlessly sophisticated it is, for a Vasari set up against an entrenched Vasari, to mount an effective offensive.By effective I mean an attack, during which the attacker has at least one advantage above the defender.In Any other matchup the attacker has an advantage.- in Tec/Adv VS. any faction , the attacker has the advantage of torpedo cruisers, simply because they are a threat to the defender and the defender has no use for them. Vs Vasari it is harder, but the torpedo cruisers CAN shrink the Orkulus' hit point count VERY fast. Just give them good cover and you WILL cause trouble.- in Vasari vs. TEC/Adv , the Vasari have the advantage of moving starbase. They have to set it up out of the Tec/Adv's SB's reach, keep it safe until they are ready and move in.Lastly, in Vasari vs. Vasari matchup, the attacker has only the Kostura (which is foultardedly pricey to set up) and it only eliminates the tactical structures, which the attacker can't bring with him anyway. So neither side has tactical structures... excluding that, both sides have exactly the same aces in their sleeve, except for the defender having a well developed starbase which pushes the odds heavily in his favour.
I'm just letting you know options. I have killed heavily entrenched Vasari before. Very skilled Vasari players, not beginners. I used Kostura strikes to kill everything in the gravwell so my fleet could fight the Orkulus (and an allied TEC Starbase) completely unopposed by fleet and defensive structures. Before I launched my Kostura attack, I DID in fact jump 1/3 of my fleet across a double system chokepoint and capture 3 rear worlds including the enemy HW. By spending so much on defensive structures, they could not control as much of the map as I did, and I had safe worlds to build my Kosturas. I built ZERO starbases that game.
I never said it wasn't a pain in the butt. It is so tedious that it was pretty easy for me to put down Entrenchment recently so I could focus on other things. Just like it is pretty tedious to give you any pointers. Not that you are wrong about how painful it is to fight Entrenched Vasari with Vasari....as I said before, I agree with you in this area, and I feel that the game needs more offensive options because people who turtle heavily can rarely gain a winning advantage out of it...they just drag out the game needlessly.
There must be a deeper story behind what you said. Listen to yourself - I played two people. they had fewer planets than I did. I managed to take three of their inner worlds, along with one's homeworld, with 1/3rd of my fleet. I had so many kosturas that I wiped their world clean of everything but the starbase.I mean, come on - wth were they doing???? it sounds as if you were playing Easy AIs.
Either they overslept the first hour of the game OR they fought 3 other people while you built up strength OR they made a crippling mistake at one point OR you stabbed them in the back while they were fighting in another system OR you were desynced and in their game you were dead for the past five hours ORthey were idiots.
I say again - we're not fighting a nib who thinks a starbase in every gravwell will save his ass against everything. I'm talking about assaulting a person who owns at least as much as you, who knows that time is on his side and who just fortified a good chokepoint to prepare a force that will crush you.I'm talking about assaulting a good Vasari player, who has a capable fleet, phase stabilizer nodes and a single Starbase defending a choke point. You can do it with TEC, you can do it with Advent, if you're on equal terms. But you need double the funds to do it with Vasari. That's an error.
In Starcraft (in my earlier days as a protoss) I could defend a chokepoint for 1,5 hours against a much better Zerg player with only 3 reavers, 2 shuttles, 6 corsairs and some photon cannons. Anything he threw at me was sent to him in trucks when his swarms caught a reaver scarab. But that game was lost and we both knew that. I could not win when he controlled 85% of the map and I controlled my own base only.It looks like you fought such a game - an already won game that you just finished off using the fanciest tools you had.
I have to say that I agree with you! I have been saying this for a while now, but everyone kept telling me to use overseers or kostura cannons or bombers or other stuff. Some tried to give me strategies for bypassing the starbase, even when I made it clear that I wanted to DESTROY the starbase.
Vasari starbase vs. Vasari Starbase DOES NOT WORK!!! (Keep in mind thats what the devs wanted you to do in the first place!). Thats why Vasari needs an anti-structure cruiser!
For me its over, I'm throwing in towel. Anyway good luck to you, I hope you get your point across better than I did (and that IC is reading your post).
Ok... You want an assault cruiser... What are you going to do with it?
Speaking as an advent player: They really do not help much agains a Vasari SB.
The starbase you are describing 2 offense, 3 defense, + other upgrades... it would shrug off the damage from the cruisers, move towards them, and grind them into powder. The thing that makes assault cruisers so effective against a SB is that the SB cannot fire back. Their range puts them just out of range of a static SB.
Nullify that, and the cruisers are toast.
What you are describing, assaulting a heavily fortified Vasari grav well, it's a problem no matter what race you are.
For that grav well, it comes down to your races superweapon, and a whole lot of ships.
I am at home.
As soon as they started Entrenching to hold me off, they start losing because they can't project power as hard as I can. I built no starbases that particular game. It was against another member of DT. Killing another Entrenched Vasari is a slow painful process of finding the chinks in their armor and slowly expanding your holdings while chipping at their least defended worlds. It takes forever, I'm with you...there could be some improvements made somewhere.
If two Vasari players have equal expansion, then Entrench heavily, then make so many defenses they have no room for Kosturas, then yes, I'm afraid they will just have to stare at each other across the border. I'm just trying to give you ideas. Very few games are complete deadlock....even with Entrenchment. Someone is usually winning and someone is losing. The problem with Entrenchment is it takes an extra hour or two when the forces are very equal in power and then Entrench. It is entirely possible to have a true stalemate...I've just never seen it. I either eventually win, or if my allies collapse, I lose.
And just for the record, I don't need Kosturas to beat a bad player. I need a Kostura to beat a good player that is being a jackass and fortifying instead of trying to win, and I need Kosturas to beat multiple bad players if my team isn't pulling its weight. Of course you use the fanciest tools at your disposal....you are criticizing me for using a super weapon against someone who has build a deathtrap chokepoint??? Jesus.....
By all means, however, I wish you the best at getting more offensive options back into the game!!!!
Starcraft? That was a good game. I hope Starcraft 2 is as good or better.
Compare please.
Attacker who wants to use kosturas:+ 8 weapons labs (750 credits each)+ Kostura Research (1800 credits)+ Kostura Construction (8000 credits! each!) and you admitted using MANY.
A Defender who doesn't throw a starbase in every gravwell but simply conquered a chokepoint that would be a thorn in your ass and fortifies it:+ 2 weapons labs / 4 if he wants vortex, which isn't really necessary (750 credits each)+ Starbase research (800ish credits)+ Starbase (2600 credits)+ 5 upgrades for 1800 (9000 credits)
Conclusion: the extra weapons labs, research and the cost of a single kostura is more or less the cost of his chokepoint (give or take 1000 credits). This means that the defender should have a fleet equal to the attacker using kostura.That they didn't was their error.
And a little maths to kill all arguments saying torpedo cruisers suck against Orkulus:Orkulus with 2 offense and 3 defense upgrades = 2600+9000= 11600 credits11600 credits (starbase) divided by 620 credits (price of Ogrov torpedo cruiser) = 18,7
What does that mean? You can build 18 torpedo cruisers for the price of a single starbase.18 Ogrovs will kill the above mentioned starbase in less than half minute. Just send your fleet first and when the starbase engages them, send your torpedo cruisers to attack the starbase from its side (or ass). Before the starbase turns, it will be toast, not to mention that an Orkulus can't attack 18 targets at once (like 7? 9?)
------------------------------- :] [: ;-O ----------------------------------Bottom line is: when both players are Vasari, mounting an offensive against a single chokepoint is three times more costly and difficult than in any other matchup.
People who focus more on building defenses early seldom are able control as much of the map. Entrenching is valuable if you have allies winning their fights that will come rescue you, or if your opponent actually suicides on your defenses. Otherwise, the player who can project power ends up with a bigger empire and has the resources to employ superweapons to crack the last defenses of the Entrenched player. This pattern repeats itself over and over. If this wasn't the case, no one would be able to win a game of Sins because you would only have to build defenses not to lose and there would be no incentive to attack.
Defenses are more cost effective in the gravwell where they are built, but they can't be everywhere so the guy with the fleet has his choice of your undefended worlds. Obviously player skill comes into play as well and Entrenching a critical chokepoint might actually be the wisest choice in some situations -- but usually it is better to just build light defenses and park a small fleet there so you still have the option to attack.
In the cases where I obliterated the enemy gravwells, I was certainly bigger, because the Entrenched player spent early resources on defenses while I spent mine on fleet. My fleet was sufficient to take additional undefended worlds and assist allies in wiping out other players, allowing me to continue growing. In the example where I jumped past a double chokepoint, I whittled the player down to two worlds. I don't usually have to build more Kosturas because most people are decent enough to quit at this point because they know they can't win. I also have been playing TEC a lot, because it is a lot easier to just Novalith people who turtle up than it is to use a Kostura and then have to go siege the world.
Based on your assumptions, your conclusions are perfectly sound for two players who have spent all their time defending their worlds before they decide to kill each other. If they have expanded equally, both entrenched fairly equally, then yes, they will both find themselves at an impasse. In practice, my games never turn out this way....I'm assuming yours do, and that probably reflects a playstyle difference.
The main problem I have with the Assault Cruisers is they get slaughtered by strikecraft. People often tend to have many carriers end game and large numbers of strikecraft can kill an Assault Cruiser in one pass, even if you have repair, etc. The Orkulus by itself is not a big deal, it is when they are heavily supported. As you say, it takes about X3 the effort to assault a world as it does to defend it, which would certainly be a problem if both players had exactly the same capabilities because they both played sincity equally for an hour.
I think all the races need stronger options for taking on heavy defenses. I'm on vacation from the game for a while, and hopefully some new stuff will be in place when I get back. Entrenchment games have a lot of new strategies, but some of them are way too long to be practical.
Back when I learned what the first expansion would be, I was afraid it would make the games longer, and it has. I hope the next expansion offers some new alternatives.
I completely acknowledge that the Kostura, and all the Super Weapons, are great for finishing off people who are smaller than you but are heavily dug in. That said, the Kostura is a tremendously powerful tactical and strategic weapon. It can make the difference in what would otherwise be a close fight and it more than pays for itself in these situations. Chances are the other player is as reluctant to attack as you are by this stage of the game. If you can maintain enough defense that the other guy can't break through and you get Kosturas up and running, you now have the ability to inflict damage on the other player completely from the security of your defenses at no loss to yourself. Kosturas also don't filly fleet capacity, the guy with the bigger fleet is at a higher fleet supply which means his economy is smaller unless his empire is actually bigger than yours.
Even in your scenario, you state that it is three times more costly to attack, but the guy who didn't build Kosturas is only at two times fleet size. If two times the fleet size isn't enough to attack, maybe your own math supports using Kosturas from behind your defenses?
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