I know that the mazara missle barrage is held in high regard but is the desolators missle swarm as good or worse. idk about the damages but level 3 is prob as good as the missle barrage. the missle barrage costs 150 antimater and has along cooldown compared to the missle barrage. both of these have changed battles for me and i am wondering which is better.
what is ur opinion on the better missle attack and why.
Marza missile barrage targets much more ships, doing the same damage to each. Phase missile swarm targets around 7 ships doing less than instadeathing damage to them. this used to be pwning when mixed with Destructive Nanites, but now it just severely damage most ships. Overall, the Marza Missile barrage is better, as long as it interupted by Ion bolt, phase out hull, or the Advent's thingy
the two skills aren't really comparable. over a long enough period of time they might be able to output a similar amount of damage, would have to crunch the numbers and also consider the anti-matter situation of the Desolator.
however, thats not really the point. Missile Barrage packs an insane amount of damage into a 25 second period. its a gigantic burst of damage that will totally overwhelm most fleets. nothing in the game really compares to it. phase missile swarm is just a pretty good direct damage ability, it can't on its own take out a whole enemy fleet in 25 seconds flat.
Have to agree with transitive. Desolator does do good amount of damage but it cannot swing a battle. Marza's Missile Barrage on the other hand can change the battle quickly.
The marza's is a game winning ability if it goes ignored. I believe 2 marzas firing missle barrage will kill any ship but a capital ship. It has a large radius and hits all enemy targets in that area. I wonder how many missles they have in there anyway....
The desolator's missle swarm isn't too bad. If I'm playing a game as a vasari, I usually get a few of desolators into their own fleet and use it kind of as a flanking punch to my main fleet. I'll usually get them with in range on the side of a fleet thats infected with Volatile Nanites, right click auto-cast on the missle swarm to try and start a chain reaction explosion.
Marza's missile barrage is uncapped area of effect damage; the more targets nearby, the most damage it deals. The desolator's phase missile swarm deals capped area of effect damage, meaning at a certain point it's not helpful to have more targets in the area of effect.
The desolator's ability is easier to use because it cannot be disrupted, has a fast cooldown, and doesn't require careful position (you can't be careless, but you don't need to be meticulous). The Marza's ability is far more devastating at its best, but it's also easier to cancel and requires more thought into position and timing.
Missile Barrage is totally over the top.
I am playing a hard game versus the AI, with Starbases being the tank, a few frigates being cannon fodder, and a Marza with Missile Barrage to kill off all frigates and heavily damage all cruisers of an invasion fleet.
This ability is so powerful that asking people to just interrupt it is not really viable. Also, adding longer cooldown or super high antimatter cost would not help.
There is only one capital ship that I fear, and this is the Marza. Look away, and a few seconds later all your frigates are dust. Who else can do this?Not even Malice + Cleansing Brilliance, which requires two capital ships, comes close.
The ability must be re-worked. Limit the number of targets or missiles launched, something like that.
As much as I adore my Marzas with their anti-frigate shotgun, it is just too good...
Ugh...it's doesn't need a nerf. Learn to interupt it.
i kinda think that Missile Barrage really is one of the few abilities in the game that presents a balance problem. its not that ita auto-win no matter what, it does have some perfectly good counters, its that it towers above every other level 6 cap ship ability in the game by a huge amount.
its so strong that getting a Marza as your first cap is almost compulsory for TEC players in most games. your fleet goes from balanced to overpowering when your Marza levels up from 5 to 6. the ability is just way out of line with what other ships level 6 abilities are capable of.
i do think it should be taken down a few notches just to make it more in line with other ships, not because its impossible to deal with.
An Akkan at level one can stop a Marza. How? Ion Blast. The same goes for a couple other ships in the other fleets. One of the Advent cap ships has this same ability and so does one of the Vasari's. It doesn't need a nerf, I wish people would stop trying to nerf everything in sight. All you have to do is interrupt it. By the time a Marza gets to level 6 you ought to be able to counter it somehow. I've never seen the AI use it and no human player will activate the ability unless the Marza is in the middle of your fleet so stopping it should not be any problem at all. Learn how to counter it instead of suggesting a nerf.
Missile barrage is a real conundrum. I tend to dismiss the "just interrupt it" argument with a very simple counter-argument: don't waste it if it's just going to get interrupted. You choose when and where missile barrage gets activated, not your enemy, and it's your own fault if it's just two clicks away from being interrupted. Missile barrage's success and failure is about more than just reaction speed and hitting that interrupting special ability; it's a game of tactics and placement where you are trying to get your opportunity for a clean shot and the enemy must ensure he's always in a position to interrupt it. The bottom line is this: if I can't get my "clean shot", then the battle just proceeds normally. If I can get my "clean shot", you lose. Very high stakes indeed, something very few other capital ships can boast.
The flip side is that some factions (namely Advent) can use combinations of special abilities to actually outlast missile barrage. This is absolutely amazing, and really speaks to the power of shield regeneration. What it does is make the Marza's level 6 ability very situational, where in some cases it's virtually useless and in other cases it's an instant game-winner. That's the balance issue I see, where missile barrage is sitting on a knife's edge between brutally overpowered and useless. The problem is, all you need is one situation to come up where the enemy cannot counter-act it, and it's a game-winner.
Thats a really good point, and assuming it was slightly directed at my post, but all I was getting at was that calling for a nerf is both unneeded and unrealistic. The use of missile barrage is certainly situational.
The other point is how much effort and BS your opponents are putting into countering your threat of missle barrage, while your effort and BS was simply selecting the "automatic choice" of the Marza as your first cap.
i am one that doesnt quite believe that using the missle barrage is situational. if most of the enemies fleet is in range and i can use it, i do. this is becaues few of the other players use the good cap counters, the akkan, maureder, and the other advent ship. these ships seem to be the weakest of their respective factions. the akkan is usefl for getting ur fleet out of certian situations(if u can get it to level 6), colonizing, and interupting the mazara. the maurder is usefull only if u have a phase stabalizer network going. i dont play the advent so i dont know about the advent ship.
most tec players, certianally after reading this post, get the mazara first, tho some of them do get the akkan and kol.
i have never seen the maurader used in multi, tho i use it mid-late game in single.
i aggree with agent of kharma, it all depends on how much effort ur opponet is going to put in to countering the maz.
BTW, thanks for all of the feedback.
ps: i do NOT want a nerf of it...
Just out of curiosity, does detonate ani-matter interrupt misslse barrage? Or is it just revierie?
In one of my games I had 3 Marzas and they all used missile barrage at the same time. Took out six advent capital ships they were fighting
Yes, it does. So does Phase Out Hull from the Marauder.
Advent have detonate AM(radiance), reverie(revelation), and repulsion[can push marza away from your fleet](guardian)
TEC have Ion Bolt(Akkan), Armistice(Akkan), and Magnetize(Dunov)
Vasari have phase out (marauder)
like i said in my previous post, the issue as i see it is not that there is no reasonable counter to Missile Barrage. there are several. but that's not really the point i was trying to make and arguing against that particular straw-man ignores a different side of the problem.
the problem i see is the extreme level of importance the Missile Barrage ability has because of how devastating it is when not specifically countered. it has a warping effect on the dynamics of the game. TEC players are more or less required to get a Marza. all players are more or less required to get a ship that can interrupt a Marza because the consequences of not being able to counter it are instant game loss.
this is the "good old rock, nothing beats rock" dilemma. rock is the best so you have to bring paper. scissors has been voted off the island. that smacks of imbalance to me.
its not that the game has a balance problem so bad its not fun to play. thats not the case at all. its that there's one particular ability that kinda warps the strategy dynamics of the game because its power level is out of line.
Had a completely superior fleet, even with his javelins in number, even with carriers in number, and with their superiority I already had an advantage because advent units are superior on a 1:1 ratio. I also had guardians where as he had no support ship. I Had out upgraded everyone on the map in military technology which further distanced the gap in unit strength.. It was in my culture which at the time was just an extra 2% mitigation. I had a lvl 7 halycom with ult + 2 passives, lvl 6 progenitor with lvl 3 shield restore and lvl 3 colonize, and a lvl 5 rapture with lvl 3 aura+ vengeance. He had 2 marza's, one lvl 10 and one lvl 6.
I thought I had it in the bag. Then bam double missle barrage, goodbye illums and guardians and highly damaged caps and carriers. I was thouroughly owned after dominating most of the 3vs3.
I used to hate TEC and think they suck until I come here and read the posts here. So I build two Marzas from then on and maybe Akkan as third. Basically I play TEC somtimes just for Missile Barrage. Marazas is the best damag dealer even with out MB. I do think Marzas are a little less overpowered with the expansion. Missile Barrage do little to Starbases.
You need at least 1 Radiance to disrupt one of the two Marzas.
Maybe instead of nerfing Marzas they need to introduce more ways to counter Missile Barrage
I think Vasari has hardest time interupting MB.
Also I shouldn't have to put a Radiance (or other counter) at every choke point in fear of MB.
It was unexpected. I just built to support my unit choices based on synergy, and since I was already engaged with and winning against a second player right after gutting another I wasn't much paying attention to third fleet. If I had I would of took over the guy I just got done pummeling planets and with the extra econ added some domina's to my fleet.
I agree that TEC are almost forced into getting a Marza as the first cap (or at least an early one). I'm not sure what to think about this. Don't the other civs have almost default first caps too? Progen for Advent and egg for Vasari? If trans is correct, and something needs to be changed to allow more good options in cap choices, then I feel like changes would be necessary across the board: not only making the missile barrage slightly less overbearing, but changing caps on the other factions sides so that they would not be a single choice deal either.
As it is, I'm way too fond of my Marza and its 'knife edge balance'. I like the fact that I screw up sometimes and pop it at a bad time, putting myself at a disadvatange. I also like the fact that though it can swing battles, it's not hard to avoid and or counter. I would be disappointed if it was changed.
I agree with huhwhozat. Use of the Missile Barrage is a game of skill and tactics not twitch. If all is lined up and the enemy is not prepared well the one who got there the firstest with the mostest firepower wins. This is common military tactics and strategy. To nerf Missile Barrage because sometimes it can win the game is dumb. If it always won I can somewhat agree because it is not far in a game situtation. As it is, it is fair.
And making the case that it is sometimes the first or second, for me third, does not call for nerfing either. Everything has a hard hitter versus everything else. The egg can change the dynamics as well, and the mothership too, do they need to be nerfed. No!
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