I was just checking a few entity files (reference data for Entrenchement) and just noticed something that should not be... The LRM frigate, while it cost more than the light one, cost less slot points, meaning you can field more LRM than light frigates. I'm not sure but since long range units have such an advantage in combat, especially against light frigate, i don't know why they cost less fleet slots (and they are spammed heavily by players). It's seem to be the same for the Advent, but the other way around for the Vasari. I'm not sure, but it seem like a mistake...
Actually, the LRM costs less than a light frigate both in terms of metal and credits; it only costs more in terms of crystal (which is normal because it's a higher tech level unit). So yes, you can build a larger force of Javelis than you can Cobalts. This isn't a mistake, this is just how the units are priced.
Light frigates are typically considered a weaker unit type. Their only redeeming feature is that they're effective for hunting down and disabling support and carrier cruisers, but that means little in the early game, which is why most players skip them altogether.
its not a mistake at all. fleet logistics and cost are not linked on a 1-to-1 basis and ships are balanced in context of every other ship in the game, not just against one particular ship. the logistics costs are also different by faction and reflect relative balancing of the ships available to each faction.
TEC: cobalts cost 5 logistics, javelis cost 4.
Advent: disciples cost 4, illuminators cost 6.
Vasari: skirmishers cost 7, assailants cost 6.
there's no one factor that explains why these numbers are the way they are, it is just the result of balance decisions made by the Ironclad development team.
you shouldn't be under the impression that long-range is just strictly higher level then light frigate, and therefore should always cost more. it doesn't work like that.
Javelis has lower hull and shields by about 200 and 100 respectively (offhand estimation). Like Darvin said they cost crystal and take research to make. Plus, 1 supply isn't a huge difference unless you're building huge fleets (which is late game, so you'll probably be building more advanced units anyway).
LRMs damage relative to their coutnerparts in otehr factions is much less. So they are on par with damage/fleet point mostly. You can't compare light frigates (Cobalts) to LRMs, each does a different job.
Seems to be moddable, so if Ironclad felt like working primarily on the engine and getting things 'roughly' reasonable and left balance fine-tuning to the players, it'd be more of a logistical problem (getting players to agree on what values should be what, for some 'standard' mod) instead of technical (as in inability to change things appropriately). I've seen this approach taken for other games.
Do you mean like a in-menu "unit editor app" that you could set cost and genrel stats, and also have a "reset to defult" option?
I don't like where this is going. A host who spams unit A only could tweak for that unit over all others....
While this is correct, for a beginner looking for a workhorse unit to make up the bulk of his army, there's an obvious right and wrong answer here, and it simply has to do with the order in which units are typically researched and overall combat strengths.
Agreed. There would be no standardization; you'd just be guessing at the relative combat strength of every unit type, and would probably be dead before you got a feel for it. It's one thing to experiment with modding, quite another to make it the status quo.
Knowing how players spam LRM, and how effective they are at killing light frigates, giving them low fleet supply cost is just inviting them to be built in mass.
The hit points of a unit don't really matter if they don't get shot at, or at least get a lot of shot out before they start taking them. In TEC vs TEC battles, i don't see much use to bring light frigate outside their antimatter draining ability (wich don't seem that effective). LRM eat light frigates, you can't defeat them by briging more than they can chew, fleet supply work against you. To counter LRM, you need SCs, but they also end up being an heavily spammed unit...
The problem with regular users, is they don't like making the hard balance desisions that ironclad has to make.
Of course they do a different job, but one is the hunter and the other the hunted, and it seem ackward that the one that get hunted so effectively by the other can't use numbers to tip the balance. To beat LRM spam in TEC vs TEC, there is no choice but go for carriers, the other most spammed unit in that game.
I have beaten LRM spam entirely without carriers in a tec vs tec battle, I churned out a bunch of kodiak's with a light hoshiko support group and ate them alive
Light frigates get a damage bonus against support and carrier cruisers, plus they're the fastest combat unit available. This makes the light frigate ideally suited as a search and destroy unit. They're actually very effective at hunting down light carriers.
The catch to this role is that it doesn't exist until the enemy is making carriers. This is why it's often prudent to skip to another unit type, because there are better overall workhorses and unless your enemy is fast-tracking to carriers those light frigates aren't going to be very helpful at all.
why is triangular unit balance so hard to accept? this is the rock-paper-scissors game we've been playing since we were all 6 years old.
light frig -> carrier -> long range -> [wrap around to light frig]
thats more or less the balance, except that carriers use squadrons instead of guns so the issue is complicated by the presence of Flak Frigates. not complicated much though, because lights counter those as well.
the late game balance is even simpler
heavy cruiser <===> carrier
the units counter or are countered by each other, it depends entirely on whether or not the carrier has fighters or bombers. fighters do almost nothing to heavies, bombers kill them quickly.
Very well put transitive, I've been playing this game for several months and light firgate balance didn't make sense until I saw, "light frig -> carrier -> long range -> [wrap around to light frig]."
One of the things I wish we had for the game was a unit balance chart so it would be easier to see for us visual learner people.
They do exist - check some of the stickys...
uhh... stickys? dumb question, I know
go to the strategy forum and look at the posts that are pinned to the top of the forum. several of them are detailed explanations of units and their counters. one of them is a very nicely done spread-sheet of the exact stats, armor types, and damage types of every unit in the game. there's lots of information.
i repeat, go to the strategy forum and look at the sticky posts at the top of page.
I feel like such a moron. I can't find the strategy forums. *sigh* Anyone have a web address? Thanks
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/forum/404
Thanks, transitive, I found it now. Does snyone know why the forums on the website are different from the forums here on Impulse?
because when a man and woman love each other very much and then they touch each other in the special way and nine months later....new forums are born?
i dunno. i've never actually tried to access the forums through impulse, just through normal browser. i'm gonna file this one in the same category as "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?"
lol, guess I just have to look through both now. Thanks, though.
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