Okay one of the things I enjoyed about Gal Civ 2 was the option to pick which party you want your race/faction to be geared towards. These parties in a way helped define your faction's play style. War Party for the warmongers out there and Technologist Party for the research junkies.
But considering that Elemental will have, YOU, the channeler be the absolute, unquestioned, ruler of your kingdom. Naturally, a democracy will probably not work in your favor. Why go through all the bureacracy just to invade your hated neighbors when you could just cut through all of the red tape and leave the middle man alone to twiddle his thumbs. In short, I personally feel that the party system won't work, setting wise anyway.
Historically, it was quite common for monarchs to have a group of trusted advisers, a Royal Council if you will, to help guide the empire to glory. What I'm suggesting is allowing we the players to choose from a list of unique individuals who give bonuses towards either military, social (taxes, city maintenance, people happiness and loyalty), commerce, foreign affairs (diplomacy and espionage), research, magic, or, maybe, heroes and beast. These characters would form up as your royal council members and help guide your priorities and make your faction all the more unique.
Balance Issues can be resolved by these methods. 1.) limited number of seats available to fill for the player. Thus forcing us to choose what we think is most important. 2.) Have a VERY large selection of canidates to choose. 3.) limit the potency of the canidates bonuses.
So.... What do you guys think?
Here's a few examples to help give an idea.
Military
Mercenary Captain: Decreases X% of troop maintenance cost.
Drillmaster: Reduces time required to train soldiers
Chief Armorer: Increases X% of troop armor defense points.
Social
Head Magistrate: lowers civil unrest and corruption by X amount through law
Chief Clerk: Lowers cost to maintain city buildings.
Chief Tax Collector: Raises X% amount of money from taxes
Research
The Librarian (who strangely looks like an orangutan): Reduces cost to research items.
Other
Master of Assassins: makes espionage missions more efficient and lowers civil unrest through fear.
King of Thieves: Puts more money in your coffers through questionable means (heh, heh, imagine putting him the same room with the Head Magistrate.)
Head Matron of Seamtresses: makes your people more happy and loyal through...
I like it, seems like a fairly novel way of introducing the civics elements from other games
Also:
Nice
I like it more depth = delicious quality. (yummy)
It has been said that a true Monarchy does not exist. There's simply too much to do for the King/Queen all by themself, so this is a good idea!
As long as having a certain military advisor doesn't have the people prevent you from going to war
I kinda imagine a council would be along the as the 'governers' discussed in other threads, except by different names. That would allow you to monitor and assign tasks to each of the different 'brains' of your kingdom (or is it channelerdom?) beyond just city management.
Maybe have it work like the advisors from EUIII series, but without the AI being able to pick all the advisors in 1/60th of a second.
Right after more info on magic system plans, I want a basic outline of how champion units will work. Fenhiro's basic concepts could probably work out without the need for an on-map unit to fill any of the roles, but I'm still hoping that champions will be both potentially somewhat numerous and able to work both in the field and at home. In my dream world, we'd have both something like an Advisor's Council to help a channeler deal with the realm as a whole and some settlement-leader slots (administrator, viceroy, whatever) where champions could work to help a specific location.
Settlement-Leader slots...Champions performing civil services.... I like it!
imagine the tactical depth you could make on the world map! Sending a hero with unique single-city oriented bonuses to key cities would provide interesting decisions. Should I put my hero in my "army factory" city to boost the troop production rate or should I send him to protect a vital outpost on the frontier from enemy incursions.
Of course, people could build a ton of champions whose only job is to act as administrators would cause a balance issue. How to solve it, hmm....: 1.) Naturally heroes will be more expensive and their primary role should be fighting in battles. 2.) a Skill/Level System where a hero starts out being junk and progresses into a master. 3.) Champions should only be assigned to one task (military, social, research) at a time. 4.) limit the number of Heroes that can be assigned the a specific task in a specific city or limiting the number of Heroes that can be administrators in any given city. 5.) limit how many heroes can be place in administrative roles.
I would imagine that would help stop the annoyance one gets when one wants to go to war in Civ 3 and 4's late games. Let's call this advisor Prince Humperdink (I think that's how his name is spelled in "The Princess Bride") who does just this, make your people actually want to go to war with a hated enemy.
I like your idea, Landisarus, about how these governors or council members should be more than just stuffed toys that are only used at the beginning. How about having them periodically hold a meeting to say their opinions on how you're running the kingdom like militant advisors would lodge thoughts about your military, foreign affairs officials and merchants would talk about diplomacy and trade, researchers would naturally discuss the quality of research, and so on. Heck, they could even have some witty banter between them (like the king of thieves and the chief magistrate would vocalize their dislike for one another) some of which could be used as comic relief.
Examples: 1.) The King of Thieves complains about how there's too much law and order and his people can't make ends meet and the Chief Magistrate just chuckles and says "no problems here". 2.) The Militant adisors all want to start a war with a rival faction but the merchants and diplomats want trade agreements and an alliance with the same faction.
Naturally, if you choose all militant advisors you would shut yourself out from the advise of diplomats, merchants and others. So you would have to choose carefully what you believe is more important. Thus creating another balancer.
It'd be interesting if the makeup of the Royal Council changed with the faction. Some might divide advisory and administrative duties out to city governors - others might maintain a small council of minor hedge wizards. Just an idea...
Quoting Fenhiro, reply 1 King of Thieves: Puts more money in your coffers through questionable means (heh, heh, imagine putting him the same room with the Head Magistrate.)
Quoting Fenhiro, reply 8Examples: 1.) The King of Thieves complains about how there's too much law and order and his people can't make ends meet and the Chief Magistrate just chuckles and says "no problems here".
The King of Thieves would have to be someone who has organized crime within the towns and structures of only enemy opponents. There is no way anyone would allow any thief, much less a major leader, who steals from within the own kingdom to be part of its own government council!!
Heck otherwise the Chief Magistrate would kill him right in the same room and announce during the meeting how he made a major blow against crime recently. LOL LOL
Okay you got a point, NTjedi. But fortunately this just a rough draft, so it isn't set in stone. But I do like the concept to make the King of Thieves more of a social nuisance to rival factions.
Though, I would have to disagree about not having a thief in a government council (I would). Who better to oversee the muck work than someone who already does it for a living. Not to mention having a self financed spy network helps. Of course some factions would object to the idea (especially the morally righteous), but for the more machiavellian factions wouldn't dream passing up such an asset.
Yeah it would be interesting to see how (or what) changes occur in the Royal Council as your faction grows, expands and evolves over time. What I don't know
As long as the thief is providing stolen goods from outside of your kingdom then yes it would be worthwhile having him in the government council. It would be very interesting to have a Thief Leader within the royal council who would be used to steal gold from other players. Ideally you could specify a specific nation or two as well. Heck perhaps even have him setup where he's sent on a mission to try and steal a magic item.
Balking at a Master Thief advisor seems like a modern worry to me, or maybe just a little to rosy a view on how governments, especially authoritarian ones, can work. It is not an unreasonable idea for rulers to have close advisors whose role is not common knowledge or is even fairly secret. Sometimes that could be because the advisor's job is dirty (spying, murdering) and sometimes because the advisor "should" be an enemy of the state but in fact provides value to the monarch despite doing something like running illegal businesses (brothels) or good old fashioned theft and extortion.
In other words, if a Master Thief can bring enough info and/or 'special forces' to the table, who's to say other than the monarch whether that rascal needs killing or not. Even if the hometown Rogues Guild takes a steady cut of caravan traffic and regularly creates new business for the town silversmiths, a monarch might see that 'resource flow' as just another form of taxation. At least that's how it seems when I try to put on my fuedal thinking cap.
If a Master Thief is on the royal council and is even partly participating in stealing goods from within the same kingdom then his loyalty cannot be trusted! His very presence would increase the chances for corruption or military mutiny. Such a thief could also place a price to other kingdoms for the assassination of a high official within the kingdom or even the channeller himself... not to mention possibly stealing treasures from the palace.
The only way a Master Thief could be on the royal council was if he had a solid loyalty to the channeller and its kingdom.
Any other type of Master Thief would have to remain as a 3rd party guild for all players and independents.
What about "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?"
Somewhat more seriously, think about the fact that "coaltion governments" existed long before western parliaments started looking like we see them today. After all, regardless of any specific details, the art of government is an art of compromises.
It seems to me that your take on including a Thieves' Guild rep in a royal council is really a role-playing POV, which is more than fine by me. But despite my growing interest in the RPG aspects of this game, my strongest interest is in seeing as flexible and complex an underlying rule set as is possible. In tabletop RPG terms, I want an engine that's more like GURPS or the Hero System than it is like D&D or Runequest.
Discworld anyone? The thieves guild is much respected in those books I think you're just too idealistic Ntjedi.. and can't comprehend of a government that would be fine with dicking over its own citizenry (assuming the upper classes are obviously exmempted from the treatment). A theives guild could just be a way of increasing the tax base by another means
Gee and here i thought people would baulk at the idea of a representative of Seamtresses (prostitutes for those unfamiliar with the term) being in the royal council.
I'm gonna have to disagree with NTjedi on not trusting thieves. You can trust that they'll rob ya blind and you wont even notice.
If we put the theory of "two way loyalty" aside we might find that thieves in general could be very patriotic. In that they like stable governments for people tend to feel more secure and are less inclined to protect their valuables. You know, if there's a crisis people'll hide grandma's jewelry under the mattress but if everything is calm and orderly then people will get lazy. Thus making it easier for a thief. So thieves in general would have a natural interest in the welfare of the government. Not to mention the potential of being rewarded with a general pardon upon retirement would be icing on the cake.
Of course, the beauty about this Royal Council system is that you will be allowed to choose who ever you want to be in your council, if you don't want a master thief (for whatever reasons) don't pick him. Ultimately, in a way, the royal council sole purpose is to help better define your play style and your way of thinking. It would give us the players an another layer to define our factions and make them more unique.
Having a representative on the Royal Concil does seem a bit much (well.... unless she's not JUST there for advice, but I won't get into THAT!!), but the whole idea of a council sounds like a good way to add customisability(sp?). Maybe have different positions for different factions. This could definately add a\some dimension to the game....
A shady master thief who's part of a 3rd party thieves guild could be used for stealing money from your own citizens... but heck why not ask him to send his people to steal from your opponents instead! Why steal from your own citizens who might end up leaving your cities when you could steal from opponents which would increase the chances of new citizens moving into your towns!
You are highly mistaken if you think thieves will ONLY be stealing from citizens. A shady thief which cannot be trusted could not only steal from members of your high council, but possibly even the channeller himself. Not to mention if he's part of the high council he gains knowledge of everything discussed which he can turn and sell to one or more players. He would even be able to develop relationships with members on your high council which he could later use for corrupting them!! This corruption could cause the chief tax collector and the shady master thief to steal extra gold for themselves, or convince the head magistrate that with the channellers assassination the thieves and guards combined would be the new rulers, etc., etc., .
ANYONE who's part of the high council must be HIGHLY TRUSTED. So a master thief could work, but his loyalty to the kingdom must be solid.
The problem is that an unloyal thieves guild will do more than just steal extra money from citizens... who if ever discovered their leader supported a criminal of people would increase the risk of a revolution! An unloyal thieves guild who is on the same high council as the top treasury, political and military advisor is not only risky, but downright INSANE. Seriously he would gather the secrets being discussed in the main meeting and then turn around and sell them. So there's goes the planned surprise attack or the simultaneous peace treaty between two nations at war. Not to mention he would increase the chance for CORRUPTION with your high officials. The list goes ON and ON and ON !
There's a BIG difference between using a shady master thieves who's part of a 3rd party thieves guild and allowing a shady master thief to sit in regular meetings as part of the HIGH COUNCIL !! Seriously the list of problems are ENORMOUS!
This has nothing to do with an RPG point of view... this has to do with having a reliable and trustworthy high council. I don't want anyone to be part of my high council who obviously would turn around and consider selling secrets which were discussed in the high council meetings. It would be foolish to have someone part of the high council who would not only increase corruption of your high officials, but possibly steal from them or assassinate them !!
I'n not so sure that such loyalty is guaranteed. Western democracies elect crooks all the time.
That was sort of one of my points, although I don't think you need to narrow scope to such recent history. After all, a great many stories about royal families are full of all manner of betrayals and murder, including things like suborning Royal Councilors, senior eunuchs, and princes and princesses who cannot inherit.
I concur.
In general I think a political element will essential for the game.
Lol... you know when you think about it there's not much difference between a thieves guild and a government. i mean both steal from the people (thieves are just more honest/obvious about it). Everyone hates a taxcollector and a pickpocket (not much difference there either).
And NTjedi, i can think of a few reps who would be worse then a master thief: a power hungry relative who either tries to manipulate you or tries to have you removed through natural causes (a knife in the back for a king is a natural cause of death). A drooling, incompetent idiot is another. Corporal Nobby Nobbs (at least a master thief has a little self control). The Spanish Grand Inquisitor (his name rhymes with Talk-Him-Outta, heheh, don't know how to spell it). An unpredictable, homicidal maniac who could go ape $&@% at any second.
Well that's my point... the game will have plenty of challenges from opponents, independents, and random events. We shouldn't have to worry about whether the channellers personal guards and chief magistrate might be helping plan his assassination. Can you imagine controlling 70% of the map where victory is almost certain and then being killed by your own Master Thief during a meeting with the royal council !! It would be one of those "NO WAY ... that's not right!" scenarios. The royal council should be a team of individuals who can carry weapons while standing behind their channeller and the channeller not worry at all. The master thief on a high council should be focused on stealing from other players not cutting from within its own kingdom. If the channeller must do something which actually harms his own people such as steal from his own citizens then a 3rd party thieves guild should be used.
I diagree with some of what you have said, namely that you would need a 3rd party thieves guild to steal from your own people. The way I see it, the sort of person you would have as a master thief could be TRUSTED to steal from your own people because the channeler is NOT a citizen. Just because they happen to pay taxes to you doesn't mean you can't collect some fees that aren't on the books.
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