They have to deal with the huge pile of garbage that is Impulse!
"so you are telling me that in order to download your software, i have to download other software, after downloading IE7...."
"then after jumping through those hoops, Impulse wont start up....."
Your forums are filled with paying customers who cant use the product they purchased.
Next time i'll wait for the torrent and skip this epic nightmare.
It doesnt pay to be honest I guess.
If I hada buck for everytime I heard "ill only pirate EA games" I could buy EA, or donate the money to stardock
I remeber when napster came out and was big. I didnt really care to use it unless to look for songs that were not on cds. I liked buying the cd case and the booklit that came with. I am inlove with zune marketplace I love paying 14 bucks for unlimimited dl yeah i dont "own" the music but its nice.
seems like all media can be downloaded now its seem thats where its everything is going dling for a subscription
Yeah I'm using Chrome (well a variation of it - Iron) myself other than its lack of plug ins I like it a lot. Do you *really* believe that _everyone_ that doesn't use IE is a pirate? Or that _everyone_ that doesn't use Windows Update is a pirate or using an illegal version of Windows?
Hell, anyone familiar enough with the scene - that actually wanted to - could use and has been using IE 7 since almost the time it came out. Personally ever since Modtoaster morphed into Crosus I hadn't fired up an instance of IE in at least 2 or 3 years (and for that matter Crosus never required IE7). I never use Windows Update to keep my boxes updated because most of them aren't online (two are DAWs and 1 is exclusively for archiving, the others are mostly old win 98 boxes that support some annoying piece of hardware whose drivers have never been updated). Autopatcher is just plain a better and less annoying way of keeping your boxes updated - burn once to disc or copy to usb stick - done. I know a number of people including sys admins that don't use IE7. I think painting everyone that doesn't use IE7 as a warez kiddie is a bit short sighted. It isn't in any way safer than firefox or opera or chrome and has consistently had the most number of security flaws and has often been slow to patch. Nor does MS even require authentic windows to install IE7 any more. Obviously I'm a customer and I buy things. Everyone, to my knowledge, that has an account here has bought at least something from Stardock. I consider IE an annoyance but not quite a deal breaker (like being programmed in java would be for example). But it's still an annoyance. I don't like, and have never liked, the hooks into the os that it has. I consider it a security flaw and I'm not alone in this opinion.
Regardless I've made some suggestions that would make Impukse better even if you decide to keep IE as the basis of it. Here's another one: tabs please.
I can't picture how a dedicated server would do a better job than having the AI do it on one's own machine. Could you explain more? I am not a programmer but maybe I'm just being dense. However if it was something that actually benefitted the customer, which is what it sounds like in your example, I can't see how someone would have a problem with it. As long as we aren't talking like the draconian drm that does nothing but run in the background and tell some server somewhere "yeah it's legit" or enforce some retarded install limit. But then I'm not really on the majority side of any sort of bellcurve as I tend to wait to buy things until I can actually afford them which means in some cases watting six months or more to buy them (and also this is an antiquated hand me down machine so running anything vaguely modern has to be well vetted first). Still I wonder if an advanced AI of that type (again if I'm following you) would even be needed if say GalCiv III had multiplayer. If you're taking suggestions though I'd buy a Syndicate MMO or whatever in a second if you can pry that IP from EA. Regardless I hope you keep into consideration that a lot of people are using wifi as opposed to truly 24/7 internet connectivity.
That's been my experience. Given the uptake of firefox downloads/marketshare in the last couple years I think that backs up what I said fairly well. If I inadvertently insulted you then my apologies.
That's not what I said or implied.
But you show me 100 techies who don't have IE7 installed and I would be surprised if a significant % of it aren't running IE7 because they can't easily get it on their pirated version of Windows.
re AI on the servers:
If the AI is on the servers, I can update the AI as much as needed without having to update the client. Having to update the game is expensive and time consuming. The more of the "game" that can exist on a server, the better the experience will be for players.
On the flip side, it pretty much eliminates piracy since the game will be tied to a particular account. There's nothing to "crack" (unless someone wants to try to rewrite the entire computer AI and create their own series of servers ala WoW).
I'd say the PC market is about 2 years away from persistent on-line gaming being able to be made a requirement. But only time will tell.
Fair enough. If you've got linkage though I'm happy to read more about this.
Given SD's track record, that is a bet I'd be (more) than willing to take.
I'd win.
It's either that, or they're a complete idiot. If you're going to be connected to the internet, you need those security patches.
Sorry; it's been way to long and I honestly don't even remember which forum to start looking in (Impulse, Sins, I drop by GalCiv II once in a blue moon, heck I think I started tracking Demigod back around the time Impulse came out!).
I'm an idiot? You have cheap friends who can't afford a 20 dollar game. What is even more funny is people like you will pay for a over priced beer or coffee that took 50 cents to make but won't pay 20 bucks for a game that took 2+ years to make. It's just a one time fee for a excellent product. How about you figure out how to pirate car gasoline and than talk to me, I might give a shit. Other than that this is a video game site. I am a succesful radiologist and not knowing if shit is pirated over steam or not is absolutly irrelevent to intelligence altogether. I have a job and I buy my shit. Now get out of my face and don't call me an idiot because I am that much better than you.
Stardock's been around over 15 years. We still support products from over 10 years ago. The size of a company doesn't determine longevity or support length. Some companies explicitly try to not grow beyond a certain size so that their CEOs can still hang out on forums and ridicule obnoxious users.
That aside, as soon as the market allows for it, you can bet I'll be having AI and other gameplay elements be on persistent servers. It's a much better experience for players in the long run and eliminates the piracy issue.
It's not really an issue of trust. If there are cranks out there who won't buy our stuff because they're worried we'll go out of business in some distant future then I'd say the system is working ideally. Even now, every time some kook rails on about how they won't ever buy anything from Stardock because of Impulse I think "Excellent".
I dunno, I dont find impulse that bad. I've had less issues with impulse then steam at getting things to work properly. Both are great programs relative to the true junk that is out there, but they both have their ups and downs. Luckily for us, stardock seems to be a company that actually wants their products to succeed and wants their customer base to be happy so they are willing to help, improve, and generally lend a hand in making the experience as pleasant as possible for as many people as they can.
Most programs are garbage to those who arent willing to give them a chance and arent willing to work toward getting it to work properly. This isnt to say there arent bad programs out there that just dont work on any machine, but at least spend some time and seek help in the forums and support email. Ultimately if it works or not after a significant amount of time and help, then judge the quality of the product.
Final point, is it not true that pirates need 3rd party software to download their stuff. Often times even those programs are junk while offering no support. Further, are we all not bound by the limitations of windows? I mean we must run our games, programs, etc in windows or a windows boot of some sort. I'd venture to say that the quality of windows overall lacks and pales in comparison to other competing OS's. DX is no prize either. And ultimately are we not forced to run our games and programs on a machine? We are forced to go out, drop a grand or two on a machine, learn how it works, actually boot it up every time we want to play, use the software drivers that the governing company who made the device decided to make in the back end and front end and follow their rules. So I guess the point is, if you dont like something, make it yourself the way you want it, purchase the software if you really want it, but rely on reviews from many sources plus price points in order to determine whether its worth using or not, and support the companies who are trying their best to make a decent product that they intend to support. Or just dont use the product.
As said before, if its not worth purchasing, then its not worth playing. If you dont like the system being forced upon you to use in order to play the game that you do want to play, realize that the system is in place for a reason. Bandwidth is not cheap so I'm sure impulse as a system is designed to help stardock control bandwidth while maximizing user download speeds, minimizing potential hackers and other problems, and offering a secure, controlled way for users to purchase their products digitally.
That's how it sounded to me and why I had to ask to clarify. I was struck as a bit incredulous by the whole thing. It wasn't my intention to offend you Brad and pleae accept my apology if I did.
I guess it depends on the hundred you select. It is not a supposition I would be comfortable making. I would think that if they actually were techies they could work around that really quickly if that's what they wanted to do provided they were at all competent. Plus, as I posted earlier, MS doesn't even require valid windows to use IE7 anymore anyway to the best of my knowledge (If I recall correctly Betanews posted that over six months ago). You may have a compelling reason to use it - but what it is I don't know.
To me it's just one more piece of software to manage that I'd rather not - whereas if Impulse were a standalone app or based on something other than IE I wouldn't have to.
So I take it that what you're saying is that it wouldn't require an installer and since it doesn't it saves time and money? I will say that having participated in a couple MMOs (CoX, that german cyberpunk one I forget the name) I was never thrilled about the connection time, disconnects etc. that went along with it - and that was when I still had cable instead of wifi. Netcode has probably gotten better but as a consumer I prefer to be able to still play a game even when the net is down.
There've been a lot of independent servers for things like UO, sure. Whatever floats people's boats. As long as it benefits the whole food chain from devs all the way to customers I'm happy.
I think that in some cases that will be sad and that many publishers will find ways of making it more harmful and difficult for consumers (and probably to use to push devs to cut more corners) and may well make some devs lazier. Bioshock and GTA 4 for example don't really need to bave an online component but force one to some extent as I understand it. Those of us with older hardware might well be SOL since sometimes that extra process can be the one to toast windows. I think in the devs or pubs vs. piracy thing customers are caught in the middle since pirates remove so many annoyances. Hell even Gog.com includes the no-cd cracks in their executables now. So it's not that the pirates aren't providing a service. When I get my new and shiny gaming computer later on in the year and install my already paid for version of GTA4 currently collecting dust on a shelf the first thing I'm doing is getting rid of Rockstar online and all the other crap I don't need on it courtesy of the pirate groups.
Also - if most/all of a game is online, since that's the requirement, when a company goes belly up there goes the game you paid for. I don't really see how this is an upside for consumers generally. Nor have I ever been terribly fond of Client/Server or Mainframe style computing which seems to be where that's heading. I never liked waiting for ages for the computer dating all the way back to $trek. If my choice is between multiplayer and ai though I'm going to pick multiplayer unless the ai is on the local computer.
Hopefully that wasn't too ramble-y. Thanks.
As much as I like it anytime I get an image of Mr. Burns rubbing his hands together I just don't get this.
Impulse isn't multi-platform and can't be due to its IE roots. Why turn that business away? Stardock is in a completely unique position in many ways and as such would be the model for this sort of thing working - if it can reliably work. As a trend though - terrible.
You're right; there are other options than windows update... but those other options update IE as well, correct? I should have phrased myself to make it clear I was less interested in using windows update than in updating the software itself.
I'm ok with Piracy done properly, and before you start flaming (and banning) let me explain!
I find it interesting that software industries are willing to sue pirates when 99% of released software is incomplete and full of bugs. Would you accept buying a tire with a hole in it? I know, how about a faulty fire extinguisher? That, in effect, is what these companies are doing when they release games that thousands of players have problems with. Know what their problem is? Their beta teams barely represent 1% of the computer hardware out there in the real world. It's pretty convieniant that the EULA's protect the software companies while incriminating the pirates, isn't it? But the industry's crimes go much deeper than that...
These days it seems that demos of games, when demos are even available, are rarely incorporating the vast amount of code that's included in the whole game. This leads to you, in most cases, able to play a free demo when your computer can't handle the actual game. In addition, the advertising campaigns behind most games rarely depict the actual gameplay and usually either include cutscenes or wonderous 3D creations that don't even exist in the game. Can you honestly say that you'll like a game based upon a cutscene? With games costing close to a full-day's pay (for those of us at minimum wage) wouldn't you rather truly test a game before you buy it? Expecially since you can't return a game to a store once it's open. Who came up with that policy, I wonder?
Here's a couple examples from my personal experience as an "honest pirate"...
Oblivion (Elder Scrolls 4) was a very highly hyped game. Let's face it, ES3 was a pretty good game in it's own right so when they said they improved it, OH MAN! I couldn't afford to buy it at launch time so I downloaded it off a torrent site. I played it for a few minutes and suffered enough crashes that it really wasn't playable. I liked what I saw so reformatted my system (not the one with my download), updated all the drivers, and tried again. Crash after crash was the result. I deleted the game thankful that I didn't buy it.
Fallout 1 and 2 were blockbusters, and beleive me I loved them (more than halo!). Thus, when I heard that Fallout 3 was coming out I wanted to be one of the first in line. Fortunately I WASN'T. I did a bit of research and found out that the same "engine" used for Oblivion was being used for Fallout 3. So, instead I went on launch day to my favorite torrent site and downloaded copies of the disks. After playing for 30 minutes, and suffering 90+ crashes, I was more than happy that I didn't buy it. I found out later that thousands of players (who paid for it) were suffering the exact same problem, which is a result of the "engine", and still are!!! I deleted the game, and saved myself from buying, in my opinion, a beverage coaster.
When Spore came out it was again highly anticipated. I went and, yes, downloaded the game from my favorite torrent site. I played it for just over 2 hours and decided that it was a game that I enjoied, and was well designed (no crashing). The next day I went out and spent the money to buy the game, and in addition bought every expansion for the game that has come out since. I did the same thing with the origional Sims 2, pirated and then purchased it and every subsequent expansion.
I got burned a long time ago with MOO (masters of orion) because I went and bought the game, and hated it. Unfortunately SoaSE looked very similar, gameplay wise, to MOO and I almost didn't give it a chance. I would like to personally thank Stardock for making their game easily pirateable. It doesn't have protection forcing the use of a "No CD" hack. You can pirate it, try the full game as it's intended, and then buy it to gain access to the patches and online game play. Being able to have the full game experience before buying it is what led me to go down to EB Games. Yes, that means I own a legal and registered copy of it. Because of such a good experience I will even return for any sequels that Stardock may have planned.
This is piracy done PROPERLY! It's the whole reason why when you check the "NFO" files that accompany pirated software they will 99% of the time say "If you like this software support the developers and buy it"
Most people look at the piracy "industry" and immediately think that everyone who pirates software is commiting a crime. From my personal experience, and that of my friends, I can safely say that there are a vast number of software pirates that download software only to use it on a very limited try before you buy basis. The software that they don't like is (more often than not) deleted from their computer in under 24 hours. Those who don't delete the software either;
I personally have probably downloaded terabytes of software, eventually deleting most of it (sometimes I buy the game but still play the already installed pirated version), but I've also pumped in thousands of dollars into the software industry as a result. Once something is downloaded I decided usually within 2 hours if I'm going to go and buy it, or delete it. Why should I, or anyone, be prosecuted for that? Why should I walk into a store and buy a game based on the advertisment of it's perfectly rendered cutscenes? Why should I download a demo that doesn't show me 10% of the game's overall experience? Honestly, I rarely decide to buy a game based upon the game's first (demo) level. Therefore a lot of games I did purchase would still be on the shelf if I hadn't tested out pirated versions.
Yes, I know there are a lot of arguments that all pirates are bad and "steal" from the industry, but don't label us all that way.
EDIT: added the paragraph about MOO and SoaSE.
Runing application on dedicated server is now really new... one of the reason why i have buy Poser 7 Pro, a render software is the possibilities to render online via server farm... a little 1/2 hours for render animation in place of several days is something that professional appreciate...
At my work, each office computer is a cheap "terminal"... main application are running on a huge big server... these method allow to spare on the maintenance cost... one server to take care in place of hundred local computer...
The game universe is maybe not ready yet for online application but it already exist... In the future apllication and game will only be a simple client, with main application running on a dedicated server... no really because ofthe fight again the piracy but more for power use reason...
In case of a game like sins, only AI on a server is not a good idea... i see better all the core game on server... devs will be able to create a fast core game who be able to run very fast on server, needed to care for code optimisation for the server configuration only... local client will be only for the server connection and the on-screen render... by the way, it will help a lot for the sync problem... only problem is that you will need the game server to have a almost 100% running time... long downtime ( 1 hours or more ) like it happen in some case with ICO is not acceptable...
Sure that if you make the move to so system, i will not more be one of your customer... mainly because your will make a windows only client... but it change nothing, server side power application is the future...
Having experienced a vast amount of server archetextures I have to disagree with you 100% ... In an office environment I dealt with "Dumb terminals" which were so slow they were hardly usable, and would have never been capable of playing even the simplest of games. In another office environment we used actual computer systems with all the programs being on a LOCAL server machine, which resulted in faster terminals but when more than 10 users fired up the same program the lag was unbearable. In addition, what most people don't realize about server-based gaming is that when the server finally "sunsets" the game becomes unplayable. How many MMO's have been shut down due to a lack of revenue? Even World of Warcraft will one day shut down leaving all of it's former players with useless disks. (although, thanks to the "emulator scene" some of these games are being preserved/resurrected)
Now, if you're talking about player "owned" dedicated servers then that's a whole different ball game. In that event you'll rarely be dealing with a massive player-base and the server can take quite a bit of load off the host's system. You still shouldn't have the whole game being run from the server but things like processing combat "rolls", the economy, and player locations could be handled by the dedicated server.
If they were able to crack WoW and play it via private servers, the pirates could do that as well in this case. Some people are willing to go stupidly far to get stuff for free.
And Thoumsin raises some good questions, a dedicated server costs money, I don't want to be paying monthly and thus limited to 1-2 games, and the 10 year question is good. New solutions that hurt consumers aren't going to be all that celebrated from the consumers PoV.
My friend never wanted to actually buy it like me so he decided to pirate it. A torrent site he used, someone made a rip of the files updated by recent patches upto 1.1 at the time and people could just put them in the correct folders and the game would be "patched" up to 1.1. I know it worked because my friend showed me at his house, so saying people can't get anything post 1.05 is inaccurate. Might be more of a pain to pirate more recent patches for the game, but its entirely possible.
Yeah, they can. But people rarely do that. What makes WoW fun is all the other people, and private servers don't have that.
The neat thing about having an online AI is that the AI programmers can collect data very easily about how the AI behaves, and improve it.
I don't think we're there yet either (I still prefer single player games work while offline, so I can play them while the Intenet is down or just unavailable due to location), but its an interesting idea.
i can't get entrenchment.no cards aaaaahhhhh
When I first installed impulse I had a problem. I contacted support and they were able to help me within 24 hours. This suprized me. I was very happy with the support service.
As far as pirating goes, I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you it's wrong though. Bad form
I've spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread about why people pirate, stuff about
Impulse, IE7 and why they pirate over buying the game.
So, here is my comment on the issues .....
1. Impulse is good app ... I've got it installed on 2 of my 4 systems I use on
a daily basis. Ones on a Vista Ultimate x64 system and the other is WinXP Pro
with SP3 ... the other 2 ... Gentoo 2007 and Ubuntu ...
2. IE7 is part the OS ... it's " OK " , but I prefer Firefox ...
3. People that pirate software with always find a way to justify doing it ..
I work with PCs on a daily basis. I build custom systems for people
what request them ..
If I had a £ for everytime I've had to explain this I would be living in the Bahamas (or not considering the economy). If you walk in to a store and remove a product without paying for it THAT is stealing. In the UK (and AFIC the US) this is a CRIMINAL matter. If I copy music/video/games, without removing a product first (i.e. I download a version of it from a none legitimate source) then that is Copyright Infringment. In the UK (and again AFIC US) THAT is a CIVIL matter. Two totally seperate laws and methods of enforcement.
A better anolagy would be; I walk up your drive. I CLONE your car, everything from the arse dent in the drivers seat to the whine the gearbox makes in fourth. Then I drive off. In the clone. I've stolen nothing. But I have infringed the copyright of the car manufacturer.
And for the simple minded people bouncing up and down on the quote button: Copyright and Interllectual Property Infringment != Theft. Legally. End of.
That would be theft. Even if you later return the product. See above.
That's very nice, I've heard it so many times. However. Having being bent over by you publishers on numerous occasions I absolutley refuse to spend my hard earned cash before I've taken your wares for a good long test drive. You want to defend your industry then offer finished products, make sure that when it doesn't work I can actually return it to a store for a refund. I am not going to buy a game, find out it doesn't work on my computer, be unable to return it because "I might have copied it" (and before you spout off about that being self fufilling stores have had this policy since the early 90's and god damn floppy disks) and left hanging waiting for a patch that arrives WELL AFTER the "limited 90 day waranty" has expired (do you know how hard publishers make it to use that? I do!) only to find it does... jack shit to make the broken product fixed.
Ohh dear, product broken, no refund, no fix. Yet the publisher has my hard earned cash... and I have a sore arse because they didn't use lube.
This hasn't been a one off incident for me either. The list of shonky products, products that bore zero resembelance to the demo and general crap I've brought on good faith goes on for years, predates the general awareness of the Internet and starts off with my first Atari ST.
So, until you publishers stop your antics, which have been going on far longer then mine, I politley suggest you but the hell out and make damn sure your own house(s) are in order before you even dare criticise us.
And finally, how dare you insinuate it's about the money (or lack there of) in my purse. I take that as a personal insult.
In the case of sins, it is in some way possible to return a boxed version who is open ( work for spain, Belgium, France, Luxemburg, Poland... maybe some other countries too )...So, for the cited country, the lack of demo is not a good reason for use a pirated version...
I have recently order a second boxed version of Sins via a online system on LDLC.be ( origine of LDLC is France )... Laws here allow customer who buy product by a remote way to have legal delai of 7 days for try it... LDLC have these delay of 7 days included... better, for a supplement of only 3 euro ( not refund of supplement in case of return of game ) the try periode can be extend to 2 week... it is plenty of time for test it.
I have contact them for ask more information... there is a trick... the serial is placed in a sealed little package... refund in case of return is only possible if the little package with serial have remain sealed... of course, main box can be opened for test the game...
Some will say that it is a open door for pirate... but until now, i have never see a Calypso version of sins on torrent site... European boxed version are a little different that the US one ( i think )... we have more language.str file... all the torrent that i have check have only a english.str ... no french.str or german.str or ...
Seem that here, shop have more trust in customer that Stardock... now, LDLC is certainly a shop that i will add to my list of loved shop...
On the previous page, Ron Lugge wrote :
I can't legitimetly get involved in a discussion on why a 10$ box can't be sold, my understanding of business and economics isn't enough to be authoritive, but I do understand that you just can't make money that way.
Again from my new loved online game store... Old Ea game at 3.55 euro ( http://www.ldlc.be/fiche/PB00025131.html )... how they make money since selling with loose is allowed here? Go to any game shop and check price from expension pack... they range from almost nothing to a lot of money... I think that Entrenchment have a enough good value ( content ) to be released alone... For NWN, "shadows of undrentide" and "hordes of the underdark" was release like individual expension pack... content was not bigger or better that Entrenchment for Sins... Why other can but not Stardock !!! I begin think that Stardock under estimate the value and potential of their own product... this lead them to bad distribution strategie who is a highway for piracy...
In the case of the expension pack, it will hurt more that with the game itself... one year for the first expension... at the same rate, it mean that the 3 expension will be finish in two year... add some delay for a distribution here... in these long waiting periode, how much people will download illegal version because they wish the game... how much of them will be always using the game in more that two year... Sins have recently know a high level of glory in game rate... use these glory for release a boxed version of the first pack... in two year, it will be to late, people will have forget about it... only the hardcore fan will remain...
My understanding of business is that when you have a opportunity for make money, you take it... wait to long and you loose it... it is like :
Those games are no longer in production--they're that cheap because they're just trying to get rid of old stock. Sports games in particular typically become nearly worthless once the new year is released... doubly so since trade-in shops usually have a glut of them from people who "updated" to the new year's version.
If Entrenchment were to go to retail alone, it would have to be rasied to $15 or $20 to cover the costs involved in manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and marketing. It's only so cheap as it is right now because (as a download) basically all of that money can go straight into the development budget. A combined box after all the microexpansions are done is much more feasible since the retail expenses are fairly fixed per-unit.
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