Boys, give me a boxed version of Entrenchment and i am ready to pay 50 euro for it... i have no intention to steal thing... but i our modern society, it is the merchant who adapt to the customer, not the reverse situation...

About the rent and food, you are not better that me... you have receive money for the rent and food before you deliver the product ( how much time Entrenchment was annouced on Impulse but was delayed after people have pre-order it )... you call it pre-order... me, i simply pre-use a product before it appear here... once here, i will buy it...

Yes... i am not responsible of YOUR poor choice for a European distributor... I have already pay more for my European boxed version that a lot of other people... That Kalypso suck a lot of your money on the way is not my problem...

I have buy the boxed version for game online... soon, everybody will be using Entrenchment... soon, i will not more be able to game online... i don't wish to wait 3 or more year for the boxed release who will allow me to continue game online...

Give me a bank account number, a IBAN number and money will be send today... maybe i will command 2 or 3 serial more... Sins can be a very good gift for friend...

Paypal need a credit card for load the account... about Stardock, i have contact them two time long ago, before the boxed version was out in European shop... no reply... i have no visa/MC card but i have a Cirrus/Maestro/bancontact/mistercash card... it use a very secure system, very similar to the bank terminal ( systeme with challenge and pin code )... these system work in all Europa and several other countries... same without card, i can always visit my bank and send found to anybody worldwide if i have a account number and a IBAN number... What is the problem with this ? Do you have something to hide ?

Europe is 731 million potential customer... internet fraud via Visa and other credit card is a reality... a lot of people here don't trust internet with credit card ( with reason )... if you cannot adapt to these customer, don't complain that some turn to the pirate way...

If people turn to piracy, it is no without reason... correct some of these reasons and you will have fewer people who download pirate version... i am not a young teenager without any money, i have some software who are 100 time more expensive that your game... was not needed to pirate it since i can found it in any shop...

You can wrote what you wish... i will not change my behaviour... unless you change... and for info, here, it is not illegal to download pirate version, but it is illegal to upload them... so, regarding the laws, until now, i have make nothing wrong... morality is a other thing

Yep, Stardock have a great system... it is called Stardock central... a little setup and all was good... the software was working on Windows AND Linux without problem... but they have choose for Impulse now... a software was a hell ( become better with time )... numerous reinstall are needed with impulse, along with eternel check...

So, why have Stardock stop use a good system called "stardock central" for a beta quality Impulse with a lot of problem...

Natively... a lot... but linux game are good at the code level but bad at the graphic level... linux devs are more tech that artist...

No problem with wine... run a lot of windows game with it... of course, each game have his own wine version ( self compiled ) with own start script... the wine standart flavor don't work very good with all game...

Have no problem with OpenGL... in a lot of case, it is more fast that with Windows... but only if you have a Nvidia card with the Nvidia kernel module ( not the xorg one ) or a ATI card... game 3D acceleration work mainly only on these two brand...

I don't need Stardock making their application compatible with Linux... It is the work of the Linux guys... and they are working on it...one of the two existing problem for sins online game was resolved and they are working on impulse too... The box say Windows XP so, it is not the responsability of Stardock in these case

I think that Impulse will be in the future a good system... but when it was released, it was far to be perfect ( like a beta version )... now, it is better but not yet good... I see Impulse like a critical part of the game, more work need to be made on it...

Most software pirates seem to suffer from an acute form of cognitive dissonance.

Ron, at some point you've got to stop using the "You're lucky you got to play it AT ALL!!" cop-out.  At what point are you going to give Stardock respect enough to acknowledge that they are not lucky to have their games available for purchase?

If Kalypso was the "only" group interested in publishing Sins, what would you call Impulse?  It is, allegedly, a publishing platform after all.  Whether a magazine ad says "buy it at your local GAMENHAUSENVOGSZTEIN for 50 euros" or "buy it online for 25 euros" can't be that big of a difference.  Besides this, I doubt the notion that only one publisher in the whole of Europe was willing to take the "risk" of distributing a game that was already fully developed and therefore not requiring any large investment.  A game distribution deal is practically a license to print money - if they doubt it will be successful, they need only manufacture 25,000 units.  There are many programs which are sold in stores (apparently having been distributed there) which are by their very nature not expected to sell hundreds of thousands of units, yet they're still there.  Someone took the "risk" to contract out putting a DVD slipcover into a DVD case, then pressing a few thousand discs and putting them in the case, and loading them onto the truck.  It's not like a program is not worth being published just because it does not have a wide target audience - ever heard of anime?  Somehow, anime distributors are surviving, despite only selling a few thousand copies of most titles.

Needing an internet connection to play a game for the first time (and thereafter using the "go offline" option) is hardly worse than "You need an internet connection in order to receive the best part of the product - updates".  And in either case, if there's a game-breaking bug (I'm guessing Sins 1.0 had one or two), the only solution is to go online with the distributor's program and download an update.

Calling someone's personal complaints with a product "bitching" and the saying that having those complaints makes them "idiots" is just pathetic.  If you can't make a solid argument, there's no need to just resort to insults, just stop trying.

I'm not pro-Steam or pro-Impulse, I hardly even play PC games compared to DS games, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.  And your argument is just begging to be torn apart.

The problem with piracy is that it is virtually impossible to prosecute.  The penalty for a crime can be the death of you and all your relatives, but if it's unpunishable who gives a hoot?

@Kryo: "lol" is the best you can do?  At least Ron attempted to make an argument, incompetent though it was.  You're setting an example.  Prove me wrong.  The costs for distributing a finished product are virtually nothing compared to the costs for financing that product's development as a publisher.  The risk, by comparison, is negligible.  Agree or disagree?

Edit: OR JUST DELETE YOUR POST, NICE.

Surprise me, that's what I tell my hairdresser.  Use some sort of provable facts or at least some kind of logic, not just "lol" and "you'd be surprised" and "that's classified".

Disc pressing and distribution is something that was mastered years ago.  We're at tech level 3, do you get me?  There's not a lot to it anymore.

Ok, let's look at another example.  Take for instance, the Pandora project.  They are not only distributing, but manufacturing a completely brand-new handheld computer/gaming system.  They're distributing it themselves.  Do you know what their initial run was?  5000 units - they've got some company convined to actually manufacture JUST 5000 of these.  That is such a comically small run by comparison to any other consumer electronic device that one would imagine that any manufacturer would laugh at them and hang up.

Don't come here and tell me that there is no way to make a small-scale product release on a finished product requiring no additional development funds or even translators, given that you're apparently even doing that in-house, when crazy things like that happen.

Or take the anime example.  Somehow - in some magical fairy land - they've found a way to be profitable despite needing advertising, translators, voice actors, packaging, shipping, etc - and most titles sell almost no copies by comparison to... well, anything.  And it's a thriving, growing industry, for the most part... Geneon notwithstanding... Look it up if you don't believe me.

Press a disc, print a label, put them in a DVD case, put them on a truck.  Send 5 units to each retail store and see what happens.  In the worst case scenario, they would have lost manufacturing costs, and much riskier ventures are taken in the gaming industry every day.  I remind you that this also all took place before your recession began to take hold and bring the world down with it.

Perhaps I ought to be removed from this discussion, I'm contradicting Stardock staff again with facts and reality.  By "revise" the comment, you mean "remove before anyone calls me on it".  Calling Ron's argument "more or less" accurate means that parts of it are inaccurate, meaning that his argument is flawed.

So let me "revise" your post for you:

The cost of distributing a game is classified, yet surprising.  I removed my "lol" because I realized it was a childish thing to say and I was hoping nobody would notice.  Ron's comment was at least inaccurate, but I'm not telling you which part.  Since I have no evidince to the contrary, your post is, due to lack of evidence to the contrary and by process of elimination, accurate.

Distribution of one type of media on a disc is undeniably similar to distribution of another type of media on the same type of disc.  A retail outlet is a retail outlet, and both of the products (anime and games) are commonly sold at the same location.  It is a fallacy to claim that there is a shocking price difference involved in the manufacturing and distribution of the two, and yet the former has a customer base which is infinitely smaller than the PC strategy gamer customer base.  I guess I am too dumb to comprehend the adult world, I should get back to my hobby: game development.  Did I mention previously there are hundreds of people playing my game right now?  As in, at this second, in multiplayer, according to my live lobby statistics here?

Why is it that every time I get one of you cornered by your own logic, you resort to "I haven't got time for this"?  I'll assume you're just a very busy person, no need to waste any more time on another reply.

To reiterate, I'm really just arguing for the sake of the opposition since apparently they don't know how.  I have no personal stake in the subject, although I do dislike this standard company line of "we're small, take pity".  I suppose you really don't need to waste time replying to me - although perhaps the others here would appreciate an explanation for why... er... you have no explanation.  Or something.  Damn, I'm out of pie, time to hit the sack.

Well, it's been fun.  Caydr 2, Kryo 0, Frogboy 0.  (ah ha ha, yes, that was to provoke you into a reply, did it get you?  Eh?  Eh?  Come on now, be honest. (and to be honest you'd have to reply!  Is that the banstick I hear?  Help, help, I'm being repressed!) )

Edit:  yeah, I know I'm double posting, but a couple of things came up after I started writing my previous post, so...

I rarely engage in ad hominem attacks, but the utter stupity of this comment (specifically the early parts) is insane.  Rather than quote individual bits to break it down, I'm going to paraphrase -- feel lucky, I won't completely turn your statements on their head in the process (specifically, turning 'more or less right' into 'at least innaccurate').

"Distributing any two DVD based products is the same thing with the same costs." 

Ha.

Ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

'Real' Movies != anime != games != Pornography

To take the easy counter example, Porno and games.  Both are 'a type of media distributed on disc', so according to your statement should be 'undeniably similar' in distribution.  A 'retail outlet is a retail outlet', so we should be able to sell 'em anywhere.  Except... that just doesn't hold true.  Yes, this is a bit of a 'straw man' argument, but it displays the utter insanity of your absolutist statements.

Now, let's explain something very simply to you.  I don't want to explain it, because in a very real sense in can be used to 'prove' your point, but...  At a certain level, belief (perception) is reality.  If a company doesn't believe it can make money off a product, reality -- facts -- won't disturb it.  The fact that they believe it's not worth their time means they aren't going to spend the time to disprove it and realize they could make money off it.

It doesn't matter that it's 'cheap'; they just aren't interested in dealing with it.  After all, they've already decided it 'won't sell' in Germany, so it won't make them money.  All the arguments in the world won't change that one, simple fact.  However offensively you care to state them.

He didn't say he didn't have time for this.  He did say that you weren't worth his time -- a very big difference.  One is a flat out lie, after all.

I don't find Stardock bad... maybe it is the best... but being the best don't mean that it is perfect... i am bitching because i wish that they reach a level who is almost perfect ( total perfection never exist )... about their product, sins was the first one and i like it a lot...

Not a lot of game are installed on my computer... all are strategic game... before ( and now ), i was buying them via Matrix game... a little distributor of good strategic game with ugly graphic... there, i was able to have what i wish, the way i wish it... so, having experiment a better distributor that Stardock, it is normal that i complain... complain don't mean that i don't like Stardock and don't mean that i don't like their product...

In some way, you need Impulse to play Sins... or explain me how to play via Icon by using the 1.0 version and how to find player who have these version !!!

[quote]FYI:  Stardock didn't 'choose' Kalypso so much as Kalypso was the only group interested in publishing Sins.  You're lucky to have gotten it published in Europe at all, most of the groups wouldn't touch it!  (They didn't think it would do well in the German market, which is apparently 'key' to the European scene)[/quote

Hmmm, ok... but... Stardock don't yet publish Entrenchment via Kalypso... What stop them to choice a other one now... Sins being a top game of 2008, i am sure that a lot of European publisher will be happy to distribute it... I was and remain a fan of NWN ( neverwinternight )... expension pack ( boxed version ) was release independantely... Content for the NWN expension pack was similar to these of Entrenchment for Sins... only difference was that for NWN, price of expension was similar to the original game and not a little 10$ like in the case of Stardock... i think that i am not the only one wishing a boxed version of Entrenchment now, same if it mean a price superior to these 10$... Situation for Sins now is not the same that one year ago... new solution and/or distributor can be found...

About piracy, it is not always that bad :

Illegally copying software is seen by some software producers as a "lesser evil" than actually buying or illegally copying a competitor's software. Jeff Raikes, a Microsoft executive, stated that "If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." He also added that "We understand that in the long run the fundamental asset is the installed base of people who are using our products. What you hope to do over time is convert them to licensing the software."

Microsoft admits that piracy of its Windows operating system has helped give it huge market share (90%) in China that will boost its revenues when these users "go legit." Bill Gates said, "It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not."

Threatening to pirate (steal) their game because you don't like the available delivery method?  That sounds like bitching.

Use the CD to install, and get a LAN party going.  Past that, yes, multiplayer does require you get the patches, which require you to have an account.  On the other hand, if you have internet connection to play on ICO, you can use Impulse to patch -- the majority of Impulse issues come down to the computer equivilant of refusing to change your oil, and if your problem isn't that, Support@stardock.com will move heaven and earth to get impulse working.

Having people use a version they know is illegal is better than having them pay to use a copy someone else made is hardly germane to this discussion.  Unless you 'know' there are a large number of Sins users who bought illegal version wtihout knowing it.

Now, while I'm not 'in' on industry dealings, I'm willing to bet that changing publisher mid-stream falls into the 'bad idea' category.  At the very least, you're going to get sub-part support for future patches, especially with regards to getting entrenchment to work nice with 'base' sins.  Beyond that, Entrenchment isn't being offered as a boxed product period; that was a bussiness decision that has nothing to do with European or not.  This is SD / IC testing the waters on 'micro expansions', and what you can hope to have happen is for the three micro-expansions to be 'bundled' into one box for release, once all three are out.

I can't legitimetly get involved in a discussion on why a 10$ box can't be sold, my understanding of business and economics isn't enough to be authoritive, but I do understand that you just can't make money that way.

In other words, you have no problem with being a morally bankrupt asshole who steals just because it's more convenient than paying for something.

--mab