In the newly imagined hit-series Battlestar Galactica, the capital ship had a very sophisticated Flak defense array capable of projecting a dense Flak shield around the battlestar. Now, I have to ask the Ironclad developers, have they ever seen the Anti-SC capabilities of a capital ship in that series? Well it looks like this:
That is a lot of Flak. Also in the series, we've seen on television how effective these Flak shields can be taking down several cylon raiders on several occasions on television. Battlestars were equipped with hundreds... of point-defense turrents that created the lightshow you see in the above picture.
In Star Wars Episode III, we saw dense capital ship Anti-Aircraft fire from the first minute.
In any canon Star Wars hand-book of ships, it lists major capital ships such as Star Destroyer as carrying several AA-missile batteries and AA-Ion cannons in addition to its TIE squadrons for a secondary line of Anti-SC defense.
In real life, the battleship - the epitome of what is considered a "capital ship" - is literally a moving Flak platform on wheels. The largest battleship ever created The Yamato had over 150 Type 96 25mm cannons, and over 25 type 93 13mm triple AA machine guns, other ships indeed almost any ship worth anything in battle carried Flak guns. Naval battles in the pacific tended to be massive Flak vs. Strike Craft contests with a lot of puff puff clouds covering the sky for miles.
The question is why then can't Capital Ships get Flak in this game? Yes, there are several caps (1-2 for each each) that has an anti-SC ability such the Kol Flak Burst, or the Dunov's Magnetize but does that really make up for Capital Ships not even having a small built in Flak defense system? No, not really.
Yes, there are a specialized type of frigate: the Flak Frigate that is meant to be the primarily Flak defense for ships in SINs but does that mean unless you always bring along Flak Frigates your capital ships will always be completely defenseless against SC? Yes, it does (not counting the starting 1-2 strike craft your non-carrier capital ships get)
What I propose is: give all capital-ships a general weak Flak capability equal to 2-3 Flak Frigates.
Why we should give Capital Ships Flak. (And Starbases)
Capital Ships loved to be focused fired on by strike craft from all types of players. They see the biggest thing on the battlefield and want to take it out. This means, Capital Ships are always in near-constant danger of strike craft every game that goes onto the mid-game. You cannot count on your Anti-matter abilities because you may not have any, and your starting SC will not be able to really protect you unless you've spammed them in the form of light carriers. This extra protection however slight is needed.
The philosophical question really is: Why shouldn't huge capital ships (and even larger Starbases) that are very expensive and valuable not be able to protect themselves against SC without relying on abilities or your own SC - even slightly? They may not even good at it, they may not be effective at it, but they should be able to fire back. In WW2, Flak was nessecarily the best option for taking down planes, and options such as interceptors were better, but that is no reason to completely strip capital ships from having it.
Why Capital Ship Flak is balanced.
The weak to moderate strenght Flak equipped on Capital Ships would only be a second to third line of defense for the capital ships against enemy-SC. Mass Flak Frigates would still be much more effective than relying solely on a Cap's light Flak defense, and your own fighter SC would also be much more effective. Essentially the balance will be unchanged from what it is right now, it'll only be just that now Capital Ships can shoot back and lightly dmg enemy SC swarming around them. Flak Frigates will NOT be obsolete (agent of Karma), Fighter SC will still be more effective, and enemy SC focus-firing on capitals will still be just as effective. Like I've mentioned, this is a humble change.
"We can live without Flak for capital ships, but do we really want to? Also on very principle we shouldn't. We owe it to the Science Fiction Genre. "
Why Starbase Flak is needed.
Everything that applied to capital ships applies here, except that Starbases in addition to being huge, expensive, and valuable, they are immobile. Strike Craft could simply avoid them, and they will be a zero threat. Now, for players attempting to assault these structures, they could send SC but its perfectly flesible and realistic they will take losses. Carrier Strike Craft, should not be able to jump in on the other side of the grav well released their strike craft, wait for a few minutes while the strike craft do their dirty work (without taking any losses, due to the lack of flak guns) then jump out once the Starbase dies. Yes, Starbases can have up to several SC of their own, but that is only available after multiple upgrades you need to buy. Starbases should already start out with built-in Flak or at least make it a cheap upgrade.
Babylon 5 station's defense grid. Interceptor Station Point Defense Guns.
Specifics: Give the Akkan, Progenitor, and the Jarrasul a moderate Flak capability.
All the other capital ships and starbases will have a weak Flak equal to 2-3 Flak Frigates, however the Mothership type capital ship I adovcate for a moderate Flak ability equal to about 3-4 Flak Frigates.
The Akkan should receive moderate Flak abilities.
Again not much of a leg up, but still important. This makes these ships even better and helps protect your fleet in the immediate radius. The reasoning for this is, Flak is a support/defense ability these ships could have in contrast to the battleship capitals with their high hp + dmg and the command caps with their great abilities. This gives player an addition reason to go with these ships as their first capital ship knowing it will be very useful even in late-game battles vs. just slightly useful in combat.
PLEASE NOTE: This thread is not here to discuss Flak balance vs. Strike Craft Carrier balance. That is for another thread, and there are plently of them out there. Please do not post something like: "Great idea, but it's all unless without a carrier fix and a general buff to flak" [I actually agree with this, but keep it in another thread]
This is Silfarion's three criteria for adding in a change to the game. That I agree with.
1. It's balanced.
2. It fits the theme of the game and what the developers had in mind.
3. It works with minimal fuss or change.
---------------------
1. - Topic for debate. I say Yes.
2. - Yes, and double Yes. I have to ask, do the developers even watch BattleStar Galactica?
3. - Yes, and triple yes. It is easily implemented and won't create much of a fuss, (except for diehards out there such as Hack87, who won't like this idea no matter how humble)
I make sure to make all my trends very specific, full of examples, and with a Rebuttal section to combat the diehards out there, who hate new ideas no matter what they are. It is my hope that most people will see the merits of this humble proposal despite the over-the-topic critics that will surely seek to destroy this thread with everything they can muster.
Objections & Rebuttal COLUMN (read this first for all you diehards out there)
— "This isn't really needed"
Having cherry on a Ice-Cream Sunday isn't needed, but it's good and moreover it's "right". If we were to simply not do a change because it wasn't crucially needed and we only did things when it was absolutely nessecary in today's society then we would not have video games, ice cream, ... toilets. This change really implements the spirt of the genre and a humble change that will not cause any problems for balance.
— "Capital Ships already have 2 things to deal with squadrons ... It's a bad idea then, its a bad idea now."
Some Capital Ships have two thing to try to deal with SC, but with 1 they fail completely, the other is very micro/anti-matter dependent. I'm talking about of course their own SC, and their own capitial ship abilities that some ships have. The flaw in the first one is that the number of squadrons a cap carries (1-3 max) will almost never be enough to really protect it against enemy swarms. Second, the abilities are anti-matter dependent and highly situational. None of these 2 give a good reason why capitals shouldn't have a reliable built in Flak both in game-terms and philosophically.
— "Capital Ships aren't supposed to be a one-ship fleet, they support, and need support... they need Flak Frigates ad fighters already with them. Capital Ships are limited by hardcoding to three weapons systems..."
They're not. Capital ships will still very much need support to be effective. Giving capital ships a weak Flak will not by any means make them one-ship conquer all wonders. Flak Frigate support will still be very much desired, Fighter support will still be very viable. As for hardcoding, there are mods out there that already has this as a feature, so we know its all very much possible.
suiss, hack why dont you both stop attacking each other and stop using examples and argue moar on logic benifits and the logical consequences of the suggestion on hand
as for the advent they have a lot of good abilities like energy cooldown aura, push. vertigo, and aggresion(?)
and useless things like induce hysteryia that does less that normal planet bombarding, rebirth that tranfress levels from a ding cap you own to a low lvl one (but i dont intend to let my caps die anyways) domanace which is great untill you realize that you no longer have the supply needed to make constructers if you use it, radiance which sounds great in theory but then you realize that even tho its spose to damage all targets in a line in usually only hits the primary target because of the 3d plane
and then theres anima tempust... i still cant figure out what that actually does
Instead of having 10-12 drones per squad for Halcyon, it ups it to like 20 for a minute or two, Very good ability.
ah i see
To MarcParis,
I've already answered your concern in the Rebuttal Section. Capital Ships would not be an "no-flaw" ship because it will still go down to massed SC and massed LRFs without adequete support. 2 Flak Frigates worth of AA is not gonna stop massed bombers from massacring the ship like in real life Yamato and Bismarck. However, combined with other ships, the cap wil Flak could still help out and make a slight difference in the battle.
Everyone please remember this change if implemented will be a humble one. This will not be the all-saving grace of capital ships, This is not make Flak Frigates and SC obsolete, and This will not in any significant way change the balace.
I will repeat my quote from the original thread:
I can see by far and wide the overwhelming support from most posters in this thread (except for 1 or 2 diehards and haters of course) that this is a very reasonable suggestion and one that will be welcomed by the majority of people
who doesnt dream of being on cap-ship bridge with dozens of flak-guns tracking the enemy, and thousands of shells being fired from them..explosions left n right...
And as I suggested, I think it is good idea (whether it is old or not.) Btw Hack, sins of solar empire is based on WWI/II era, not modern warfare
If it was, we should not have "battleships" "battlecruisers" (they don't exist in modern era anymore) but just destroyers (wow, we don't have them in game!), cruisers (some with Aegis system) and a gigantic carrier which dealy strikecrafts (far stronger than current state)
Thanks for all the support. Cheers and + 1 Karma to all of you.
Star Trek is Sci-Fi and they don't have flak. The word here is FICTION. It is what someone imagines it will be. There aren't transporter beams in Sins either... So there doesn't have to be flak on a capital ship if they don't want it.
You claimed this about interceptors too and that post is showing more and more people opposing the idea...
Hack once again.....
Yes star trek does not have flak, actually i take that back, a race in voyager had spacial charges that were used as flak. And by flak I beleive it is meant to be anti-strikecraft / fighters etc... which star trek does have as for phasers / disrupters and such can target them and kill them this was proven in the dominion wars and in the starfleet command games. So please stop your non-sense.
In Star Trek, fighters are much less prominent because big ships can target the fighters (which really act like LRMs/LFs) them with their main phaser arrays and take them out much easier than in SINs. In SINs caps can't target SC with their default weapons.
It'd really suck to be a figher pilot in Star Trek. The causalty rate would be inhumane. Probably why most battles in Star Trek are cap ship to cap ship.
In several episodes, the enterprise killed all the incoming fighter craft in 5 seconds from rapid burst from their phasers.
I'm not disagreeing there - just saying that they didn't have dedicated AA batteries!!!
First off, FANTASTIC THREAD! seriously, the way you presented and argued your case, the use of visual stimulus, all fantastic.
so, i totally agree, i think caps and starbases need flak weapons at the very least (in my personal preference id like them to look more like auto cannons or fast firing lasers, or else bright small-ish explosions like large flak bursts) like it was said, Caps/SBs have so much space they could easily have some (heaps of) AAA weapons... can u imagine, zooming in on a kol and seeing like 6-8 or more auto cannon tracers arcing away from it, in addition to its anti ship weapons (lasers/beams etc)
itd be like that episode of Stargate Atlantis where they defend from the Wraith attack, all sorts of tracer fire arcing away from the city, it would be AWESOME!
from a gameplay point of view, flak is definitly needed (imo) on caps. it just makes sense and it makes them more potent a force. i suppose i cant convince some ppl, but i REALLY dont see any good reasons not to have them. if people are afraid of a challenge then dont play!
so, on a side note, some ppl said they'd like more weapon banks on Caps (and was it starbases as well?) in any case, i TOTALLY agree as well. considering caps are such big, lumbering things, that arent very agile or fast, they need to be more like mobile weapons platforms, being able to unleash punishing forward firepower, while engaging multiple other targets all around (in the case of sins it would be diff based on each cap, for instance, the Kol could have all its heavy stuff to the front to attack everything in its front quarter (about 45 degrees left and right of forward) and have lighter weaponry located on the rear starboard and port sides for engaging other targets, while the akkan can have a more or less equal spread of fire power for every quarter) i think itd be awesome, without equal...
at the risk of quoting other sci fi ideas too much, i just watched an episode of stargate atlantis, (i wont give away any spoilers) but basically the humans on atlantis were attacking two hive ships, and there were hundreds or even thousands of little strike craft, weapons fire or all sorts flying everywhere, it was a thing of beauty, and it was a battle between 4 ships! SOASE is a much larger scale game, and yet the combat is so narrow minded... okay, i realise thats a sweeping statement, but really, the fleets stand still and fight with each other like civil war soldiers, taking shots every once in a while! i really think the ships should move, or at least frigate should move, caps could stand still or move a little dealing death to all comers wherever they go
sorry, im getting off topic, so, i think caps should have more weapons, and, for those who say balance, well, i agree, why have support ships when caps can just engage every target in a fleet by themselves... its a good point, however i think its a moot one. for truly epic battle, you need lots of elements (i.e. more weapos fire, ships moving etc). im sure the devs could work something out, more armor/shields whatever, lowering damage, making secondary weapons run on a generator the needs rechagring after 20 secs of use, it could even amount to raising fleet capacity for the game, instead of the 2500 max or whatever it is now, make it 3500, make it 5000?! why not, i mean, it would balance the caps having more weapons, and would make for a much more epic battle (im thinking on the larger maps here, 5000 fleet supply with 5 planets to fight over is a waste) besides, atm, shield mitigation soaks up up to 57% of any damge incoming (when fire is concentrated etc) so giving a cap ship more damage may not really amout to anything other than pretty lights
but in my honest opinion, to make battles in Sins truly epic, there need to be many more elements such as the ones mentioned above.
so, sorry for the rant, but yeah, i really dont see any realy reasons not to include these extra features
Yes, that ruins the realism. That's why early on when it's just a cap ship and a few pirates I manuever it like I'm the Admiral. But in bigger battles....nope...for my finger's sake.
PS: Flak For Caps. Flak For Caps! Flak For Caps!! Flak For Caps!!! Flak For Caps!!!
Ok, you get the picture. That can be our chant lol
can you guys stop reffeancing and arguing about other things
Star Trek is Star Trek
Star Wars is Star Wars
Sins is Sins
no need to try to mix them
i think it actuay would make sense to equip flak to some of the cap ships.
not all of then mind you as it might not make sense in terms of role and gameplay as most cap ships are fairly specialised but ships such as the akkan could d with it, i mean would you leave a ship of civvies so vulrable to such a potent foe?
but the kol doesnt as it has its own special flak but gd idea
I'm glad you agree with my Akkan idea. I agree the Kol can live without general Flak due to its ability, but considering this is pretty weak Flak on ships I don't see how it can hurt.
I can see how I would keep my Akkan close to my main blob of caps for AA fire support. If Ironclad ups the visuals to the ones we see in some mods like SINs plus or better I can see the potential for extraordinary lightshows like we see in the Battlestar battles.
Once again, thank you everyone for the generous support.
Season 5, Episode 14
"Conundrum"
Is one of such episodes.
i think that the colonize, carrier, and battleship caps should have flak regardless of what abilities they have
You compared a video game to ice cream. You think video game changes are necessary to..pay back the genre? What? See, when I think "make suggestion for video game", I usually envision it framed in terms of "how could this make gameplay better" not "melodramatic plea for weapon effects". You devote less than three paragraphs in your entire post to explaining balance issues, the rest is appeal to historical realism which is hilarious in the context of games about spaceships with lasers. I also find the appeal to realism ironic, as you seem to think it's logical and historically accurate to leave a capital ship out without additional frigate support.
Anyway, I've experimented with flak on capital ships as well as cruisers in my work on DoV, and it just doesn't work (at least for the base game). Not only does it have to replace one of the current weapons, throwing balance completely off on caps that already have three guns, it makes strategies for defending against fighter craft somewhat opaque, and discourages one of the two hard counters to capitals. If the change is as "humble" as you claim, it is worthless. If it is not, your arguments that it will not affect current balance are moot. From what I see, this is a solution in search of a problem.
You say "Giving capital ships a weak Flak will not by any means make them one-ship conquer all wonders". Okay, let's say it doesn't, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. In a paragraph or less, and without resorting to hand-waving about how freaking cool flak would be or how since this is a science fiction game we should implement everything the genre has ever done, explain the current issue with balance, and how adding flak to caps solves it. Perhaps I just missed it in all the talk about ice cream and toilets. Hack is addressing your issues and the people rebutting him are arguing with him over semantic historical realism. So help the thread out and summarize your argument.
Lol Carbon, I sense some bitterness. For realism and making cap ships a littler better at surviving late-game, we want flak on most caps. The ones with flak abilities don't need it really.
-Phalnax
Like Carbon and Hack are saying Sins is its own game and works the way it is now. When I first played Sins i was displeased by how weak capital ships were compered to what one might imagine based of other Sci fi. But the game needs to remain balanced and the way its works now is fine. Adding flak for the sake of flak is pointless and your messing with important balancing.
Example
If the free cap ship you build off the bat is equilivelent to 2 or 3 flak frigates then whats the point of building any flak frigates early on to counter an opponent who buit a carrier for their first ship. In a small map you will fight early and you never spent any resources to counter his fighters, and had that capability for free by just building a Kol, or what ever. Now your at a slight unfair advantage because that capital ship is capable of engaging more targets. Additionally a capital ship has a lot of HP so it will be constantly hitting with the power of 3 flak frigates before it dies. If instead you had built 3 frigates your opponent could kill them one at a time slowly diminishing your attack capabilities.
In short this ruins early game balancing. (though late game would not be very effected) but the current system works in early and late game.
That said starbases definitely do NEED flak for balancing.
Looks like its time to get my hands dirty. Oh well!
Please don't say that this is because of carriers I remember many and myself others suggesting this prior to even 1.05 and I still hold the wish that capital ships would get Flak.
Frankly there isn't really much to argue its either they do or they don't.
First i'm going to say that I don't see any negatives to having Flak on capital ships. Its like having a flak frig but a little less efective since Capital ships already have lots of armements adding a flak gun or too isn't going to do much to increase the capitals strengths. Fact is you need and will still need, if flak guns are added to Capitals, carriers and flak to fight of SC.
For example:(using the Figures for 5 flak ships.)
1 capital ship + 4 flak frigates (the ships not the capital people) about 70dps = 5 flak --or-- 1 capital ship + 4 flak frigats = 4.5 flak about 63 dps
No one is saying that a capital ship will be equal to having 2 - 3 flak ships maybe the capital will do half as much flak damage as a flak ship or just about equal to ONE. Capitals have lots of armements already it won't kill anything to give them this atleast.
To me that doesn't seem like an entirely huge amount of difference and it is certainly not game breaking. Come on really those of us who have seen carrier spam know this isn't going to do crap. None the less it will be Great to have flak guns on capitals.
seriously people there is nothing wrong with this. The capitals aren't going to be severely overpowered toward SC you still need more than one flak ship to counter SC. It wouldn't really matter if caps had anti-SC weapons already in place. I'm not talking about one race getting Flak or certain ships getting flak.
ALL CAPITAL SHIPS could do with some flak.
I know like 3 capital ships with anti SC abilitities could probably go with out it if Your in favor of balancing it out more. fine then The Kol, Donuv and Advent carrier capital don't really need flak guns but every other capital ship should get them.
I know Sins is its on game and the Real world and all there battle ships don't really matter to it. Sins is a big boy and big boys should step there toys up a notch and adding Flak guns onto Capitals would be a great notch.
adding flak guns is a boon a great gift to the icons of the Sins empires that roll into battle proud, obstinate and unyeilding in the face of the enemies culture and their hostilities.
Can't claim to know what sort of things that will need to be done to the code of the capital ships or even their over all model design to implement this but I would be forever grateful to Iron clad if they developed this.
End note:
@credit: please don't support your arguement on this with irrelevant outside sources. If you need to show something use the game itself. this Thread is utterly flambouyant and loaded to say the least. You need to tone it down alot and be straight to the point.
@ at everyone who thinks its unbalance: No one is saying that the capital ships flak abilities will be more powerfull then the Regular flak ship all we want is flak weapons either equal or weaker than the flak ships.
The dps of 5 flak ships is about 70. adding a capital ship and removing 1 flak frigate will sill keep it around 70 - 63
I see no great over balance here just a benefit.
Spiralblitz
the OP suggested one sap would be equal to 2-3 flak and some 3-4
Also yes the Carrier spam sucks but it will be fixed soon and there are counters as it stands now. As I said, this type of addition would change early game balance.
And adding flak that does very little damage is utterly pointless and a whaste of time, whick would accompish nothing except add visuals. The visuals already in sins are excellent and defines sins as a game.
I want to play sins not BSG if i want flak like that i will get a mod to do that
Dude now your saying it would be under powered. Ok lets begin again. I don't support capitals having the dps of 2 -3 flak frigs. (thats like 28 -42 dps difference and thats a huge game breaker.)
Capitals start with there own SC sometimes depending on the ship. isn't it logical to assume that capitals will have some sort of anti -SC gun IE flak.
Isn't logical since Capital ships have a large assortment of Armements (weapons) that they could have flak on par maybe a bit weaker or stronger if you want. (maybe a 12 -16 dps)
I'm not saying what the OP said -CU- Raptor I'm saying what has been said before in the 1.02 days when this was suggested.
it has been much desired and is not even remotely unbalance in any direction with or with out, limiting or unilimited, powered up or powered down. You catch my drift. it is not utterly pointless many players will see this as a boon. A great addition.
carrier spam can be countered with out a flak able capital ship so i'm not suggesting this because of carriers I have already said that.
as it stands now the mods don't really allow for thsi with out removing a weapon from the cap.
EDIT:
Dude no one is talking about Battle star galactica besides Credit. whom I have no idea why he is he should be using facts from the game to make his point.
I agree. Cap ships and starbases need flak AND Point Defense!
Sammual
I don't get bitter about internet forum posts, I was just stunned that someone would attempt to rationalize a major gameplay change in a game about giant spaceships with lasers set in the distant future by using real-world historical precedent and that people would agree with him without at any point making "does this keep the game balanced" the main focus of their discussion. Even if it were a completely valid tactic, developers do not focus on what is cool, they solicit suggestions as fixes, based on issues that need to be resolved. Spiralblitz pointed out existing game mechanics that he sees as broken. The OP simply went on some sort of flowery crusade about the state of the industry and World War II.
See above
Okay, fair point, but I'd never get that from reading the OP. If that is indeed a problem, I'll defer to that argument as I haven't played base Sins in quite a while. From what I remember, though, there was very little strategy and depth involved in fielding and countering capital, and while there was a fair bit of carrier spam going on very few actually attempted to actually counter them with flak. As someone who was a little turned off by the reliance on capital ships of Sins (it felt too much like heroes in other poorly balanced RTS games rather than a natural progression of ship role upwards), I suppose I'm kind of biased. Most of the ships in DoV have flak guns (even the cruisers!) so I know exactly what the goal here is. I just don't think it's quite compatible with the specialized nature of base Sins - most ships have one purpose and one hard counter. But I can see the other side of the argument - I just wish the OP had actually explained it in those terms.
I was for the flak on caps until I was remebed this,
I beleive its said in the modern BSG tha Cylon Bay star does not have the flak systems. It has a very large number of SC and thats what provides it with protection.
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