EDIT: Now that flak has been buffed and carriers have been nerfed, does anyone still want to participate in this demonstration?
Ok, so apparently people just don't get it (see the replies to this thread https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/340339 and the various threads about needing to nerf carriers).
So to all of you who think carriers are OP, I am CALLING YOU OUT. That's right. Tonight, from 7 pm to 10 pm EST, I will play you in a team game. I promise to build no more than 1 for every 5 cruiser carriers you have. I will show you how to counter carriers properly. At the end of the demonstration, we will then determine if a nerf is really needed. I invite the developers as well. My screen name on ICO is "[DT]Howthe?" Be there or be square. If you want to reply to this thread and reserve a spot either on my team or the opposing team, just sign up. I'll then go ahead and make a roster.
EDIT: When you sign up, make sure to post your screenname, with proper spelling.
Roster for 7 pm game 2/27/09: ICO updated during the time we had.
Carrier Killing Team vs Carrier Spamming Team
[DT]Howthe? __________________ Agent of Karma
[_]-Flipkik ____________________ [SP]TheTraviler
ravok2789 ____________________
KEN ______________________
EDIT: Here is a replay (for what it's worth) of a game I just played against a carrier spammer. As you can see, carriers are not a game winner. http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/7/2039910/AutoRecord-02211859.record
You had to use LRMs to stop the enemy LRM spam in 1.05. Funny though here. One of the counters for Unit X may actually be itself, rather then a seperate unit. Radical I know...
I still maintain that a good counter to fighter spam is a buying a capital ship. Once the SC are gone, the carriers aren't a threat. The only race that has problems with carrier spam is Vasari because no single cap can pwn SC like the other 2 races can. However, Vasari SC are extremely hard to kill.
I've been messing around with TEC lately and I am going to go out on the limb and say that Magenetize is better than flak burst. Why? Because the dunov has 4 extremely usefull abilities, while the Kol has 1.5 useful abilities (Flak burst (1.0) and gauss canon (0.5) against structures. Finest hour just amplifies using those 2 abilities, or keeping the kol alive with adaptive forcefield, but that ability doesn't help anything else other than the Kol).
disagree about Magnetize. i mean, the ability itself is better when analyzed on paper but the practical concerns screw it up. here are my issues:
1) Dunov is slower than carriers. It can get kited and you'll never be able to magnetize a carrier.
2) Magnetizing other ships often has little effect since enemy strike craft are not particularly likely to fly within magnet range of other ships. possible exceptions are enemy caps with short range weapons (anything with Lasers as its main weapon basically).
3) I hate to compete for anti-matter with the infinitely more awesome EMP Charge ability.
4) The Kol itself is much more of a ship than the Dunov, not counting special abilities. The durability, better damage output, firing arcs and range, and superior planet bombing damage of the Kol really goes a long way. Especially in long fights where both players run out of anti-matter and its just guns+armor vs. guns+armor.
5) Flak Burst protects the right spot every time. YOUR FLEET. Its more reliable. Magnetize depends by a certain amount on enemy behavior. Sometimes they'll fall for it and get punished badly. Don't count on it though. Smart players will see a Dunov and micro their strikecraft appropriately.
Yes, and this is why you need to be smart about fleet management and keeping your own SC close to your fleet. I usually target frigates/HCs with magnetize (or a cap if it's around).
Well, yes, the Dunov sucks in terms of battleship awesomeness, but if you are a good TEC player, then you have your culture bonus and you don't have to worry about AM. Besdies, flux field + Missle Barrage = gg.
A smart player will micro his SC with a Kol around too.
I go back to my original point, the Dunov has much better abilities than the Kol. Don't get me wrong, I love the Kol, and given my options I want both (actually, 2 Dunovs + Kol + Marza).
well i personaly go for 3 dunov 2 kol 1 marza ... simply because when focuse fire on dunov you'll have 2 other dunov giving shield in, and if they aim an other cap you have 3 shielding on it, kills the experience a lot but i usualy rush for the marza 6 and then spam other caps, since lvl 3 is enough for dunov and kol, lvl 2 shield and lvl 2 flak burst
You could also go for a 3 marza 3 kol 10 dunov fleet i tryed it, 80 focused kodiaks didnt go past shield
Instead of calling them out do a simple test.
Make say 10 carriers = 140 supply
Calculate how much resource that takes.
Now build all flak, but only up to 50% resource/supply
then try 75% then try 100%. Dont micro
Try with LF as well.
Post results
The flak will succeed in supressing the SC.
But the LFs alone won't do anything but bring down a carrier or two.
TEC = Anti army + self preservation
remove the self preservation and TEC will fail
how does this ever work? the Kol is always going to be in range of YOUR FLEET. you can't possibly be attacked by strike craft without those same attacking strikecraft flying right into Flak Burst range. i just can't think of any scenario ever where its somehow possible to attack a fleet with a Kol in it without the Kol flakking the crap out of the squadrons as they attack.
a Dunov with Magnetize can be beat with micro just by manually maneuvering squadrons away from the Magnetized ship. Any that were within range when it first hit will get sucked in but you can keep the stragglers away with micro and make sure they don't accidentally fly too close to the Magnet as they're circling on their strafing runs.
also...you guys seriously use the Dunov's Shield Charger thing? blech.
ugh...dude, trust me, it's easy and I do it all the time. However, if they can avoid magnetize, they can avoid your kol.
Yes, I like shield recharge. You can spam that till the cows come home.
ok, now i'm resorting to primitive ASCII art for demonstration purposes because you've got my all kinds of confused. below, in shitty ASCII representation is an approximate comparison of the ranges of various things. the {----} represents the range of the Kol's Flak Burst. the <---> lines represent weapon ranges of SC and Your Fleet. Notice how the Kol's range is greater than range of the SC so that it is impossible for a squadron to be in weapons range of your fleet without also being in range of your Kol's Flak Burst.
<----SC---->
{-------------KOL--------------}
<-----YOUR FLEET----->
so please, help me out Howdid?, how is it possible to attack a fleet with squadrons if there's a Kol parked in the middle of that fleet without getting your squadrons all kinds of shot up by the Flak Bursts? I'm just not seeing it. Seems physically impossible to me. If your answer is "dock the squadrons until you kill the Kol or run it out of anti-matter" then you don't have a real solution.
Because my Dunov is right there with the Kol, and I just bring the whole mess of ships/SC right into the fight. I call it the TEC battleball. When this happens, the effect flak burst has is less than/equal to that of magnetize. So here's my Battleball:
............................<----SC----> {-------------KOL--------------}
{------------DUNOV--------------}...............<-----YOUR FLEET----->
......................................<-----ENEMY FLEET with unmicroed SC---->
Hows, Dunov's flux field does not affect ultimates ability (level 6 ones)
Thus it does not help for Mazda's missile barrage (but it surely helps Mazda in other ways)
Hm...I'll have to look at this sometime. It's been over 800 games since I got a Dunov to lvl 6. I usually just play Vasari. In addition, it's not often you have multiple caps getting to lvl 6 in MP.
huhbuhwhat?
its like we're talking directly past each other.
the situation is this: you are a TEC player with your ships balled up around a Kol. The Kol's Flak Burst completely covers the area that your ships are balled up in. The enemy has a large number of squadrons. You stated that it is possible for the enemy to micro his squadrons so as to be able to attack your battle ball (with his squadrons) without getting Flakked. I replied "i don't think that is possible at all."
we on the same page now?
I would just like to point out that since the "Carrier Killer" team knows that the enemy will spam carriers, they will easily counter them. In a real game, you dont really know what the enemy is going to do. This is like having a fixed battle. Its retarded
One way to micro the fighters would be to have 1/10th of your fighters hotkeyed to each number, and have them go in waves, that way you're guaranteed not to lose more than 1/10th at a time to the kol flak burst. If you've got enough and you wave against the Kol, you can probably take it out. I don't know if this would be a good idea, but it's a way to avoid being raped by the flak burst.
Do I have to answer that? Let's just say yes.
If you were good at scouting, you would know what to build.
I've never had much problem with carriers meself and I only play casually. If their getting too much for your fleet just invest in some flak frigates and carrier groups of your own. Its a bit annoying that you are setimes forced to take this path of fleet building but then the way you build a fleet is always about the situation at hand so there you go
Hey Guys. Are we going to do the demonstration tonight? I don't know if we can now considering flak and carriers have changed so much from the original posting. Sound off and let me know. Regardless, I'll be playing tonight.
Go on with it. Played few games entrenchement already and carriers still seem too be like 90% of the fleets that are used. (guilty since the rest of my fleet died in that last game )Grtz,[_]-Flipkik
I played Kitesurf the other day. I had some scouts running around his planet and noticed he had got a jump start on me with carriers. My cap was off colonising and I had managed to sort of box him in - he could either go through pirates to the star or come through my volcano planet. Realising I couldn't get him with carriers, even though my econ was stronger, I started spamming LF and flak and put a few carriers into the fleet. When we had the first battle, he had #1 fleet size, but I was able to push him back. My balanced fleet was able to hold his fleet and grind down this SC with the flak and carriers while my LF killed some of his carriers. The end result was a game where I almost lost my egg a few times but ran my fleet everytime back to my volcano to repair and I ended up with a Lvl6 to suck his planet. What WAS dangerous to my fleet was when he realised what was happening and started spamming LRM as well...
HowThe you need a new record game since that one don't work no more with newest version of the game.
Exept that magnetise dont work against stationary fighters
HAR HAR HAR!
AHAHAHAHa AAAAAHAHAHAHAH....
Also, lvl 6 kol = 7-8 kodiaks of fire power while dunnow hardly gets 4 on lvl 6.
Magnetise also needs more micro and is overall broken, buggy ability that dont work in many conditions, and sometimes sucks in your own shit... yay.
Kitesurf is mentally chalenget person, any reasonable player whuld ignore your considerably smaller fighter force, and laught at any flak. Then go and kill manualy all your LRF's while pushing some heavy cruisers in mean time.
Like i sed, it was Kitesurf...
I actually had very few LRM until he started spamming them. I was pushing out flak, LF and carriers.
and i whuld just push HC's instead.
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