EDIT: Now that flak has been buffed and carriers have been nerfed, does anyone still want to participate in this demonstration?
Ok, so apparently people just don't get it (see the replies to this thread https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/340339 and the various threads about needing to nerf carriers).
So to all of you who think carriers are OP, I am CALLING YOU OUT. That's right. Tonight, from 7 pm to 10 pm EST, I will play you in a team game. I promise to build no more than 1 for every 5 cruiser carriers you have. I will show you how to counter carriers properly. At the end of the demonstration, we will then determine if a nerf is really needed. I invite the developers as well. My screen name on ICO is "[DT]Howthe?" Be there or be square. If you want to reply to this thread and reserve a spot either on my team or the opposing team, just sign up. I'll then go ahead and make a roster.
EDIT: When you sign up, make sure to post your screenname, with proper spelling.
Roster for 7 pm game 2/27/09: ICO updated during the time we had.
Carrier Killing Team vs Carrier Spamming Team
[DT]Howthe? __________________ Agent of Karma
[_]-Flipkik ____________________ [SP]TheTraviler
ravok2789 ____________________
KEN ______________________
EDIT: Here is a replay (for what it's worth) of a game I just played against a carrier spammer. As you can see, carriers are not a game winner. http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/7/2039910/AutoRecord-02211859.record
umm creditsuisse, this whole experiment is obviously not scientific. from the begining youve been nothing but a naysayer. Im in this to have some fun. I happen to enjoy a good tough game, even when i lose i learn and thats fun to me. Yes my skill is not top notch. But there is no way to know exactly what some one's skill level is unless youve played alot with them. In my oppinion this is just a fun way to spend part of my friday night testing part of a game that i happen to have alot of fun playing regardless of weather i win or lose.
on a different note. Doesnt anyone ever use IRC anymore? or is everyone now using a super secret channel that im not privy to? either way im gettin in game now.
I thought I said 8:30. Anyway, it's 8:37, where is everyone?
Ugh...someother night I guess.
If carriers were truly OP, wouldn't most everyone agree they were? I think the fact that this subject is so contested here makes the issue more a matter of opinion than fact. As far as the forums are concerned, I've read countless posts on strategy by seasoned pros to better my game, and this is just another one of those. So my game is better and now I know what to do against a carrier spammer. I did the same thing with LRF spamming and scout rushes.
For accessabililty reasons, however, I'd like to see anti-fighter frigates buffed a little. I honestly think that would be the solution to make both sides of this argument happy. Carriers wouldn't be nerfed, and there would be a unit capable of greatly reducing their effectiveness, cuz the way I see it, most people don't include flaks in a "balanced fleet" opting for more carriers instead, maybe that needs to change.
- Another reason for this: If they nerf carriers, what will be the anti- LRFspamming strategy? I say buff a unit thats fallen out of common use!
I gotcha.
Howthe? - I downloaded all updates, and the game totally wouldn't work because of remnants of Entrenchment. So I had to uninstall everything and am reinstalling now, and it's taking a while. Perhaps reschedule?
lol, this is pathetic, so the people who claim that carriers are OP are now saying that it's no use that an experienced player can beat a less experienced player that spams carriers...
Well the same is true if a more experienced players spams carriers. Simply put, carriers are not OP and the less experienced players need to shut up and and learn how to counter better. Simply whining that the unit they got owned with, probably by another less experienced player that read the forums and now thinks that carriers are the be all end all.
Carriers are a powerful cruiser, just how HC are power cruisers, but they are by no means OP and game breaking. They also cost a lot and use a lot of fleet crew.
Anyway, like I said, learn how to counter carriers and stop complaining. I don't want to see this game's balance ruined beacuse a minority of mediocre players that can't seem to learn how to counter a unit type.
Put it off to another day maybe? I could join carrier killing team if necessary.
Lol,
Timezones and Update wich required reinstall for allot of people F***** this experiment up.
Gtrtz,
[_]-Flipkik
I think the biggest problem with the experiment is not the possible skill disparity, but that the carrier killing team knows exactly what the other team is going to do (they pretty much have to be definition, why even bother scouting!?) whereas the carrier spamming team has no idea what the other team is going to field, as there are multiple ways to counter a carrier spam.
But Vitamin J that's the point thou. If the Carrier is so overpowered as claimed, they should believe they will win no matter what the other team fields, simply by virtue of having carriers.
Hey sorry Howthe about last night i was having troble with the update and i beraly found out what was rough it was all my maps i made so i had to delete them i ll be able to play now
I don't get it- I think this is a pointless thread. So what if an experienced player can beat a carrier spammer? That is not the issue. The issue is that, unless dealing with way more experienced players, an INexperienced player can simply own all just by spamming carriers. saying "grow a pair and learn how to play" is not an answer, because this is not a "who wins at the internets" contest, it's a discussion on the playability and replayability of the game. If one has to become an expert to be able to deal with the carrier spam, them the learning curve of the game is extremely hard, and will discourage players from *trying* to become experts. And noone wants that- the developers most of all.
here's a question for some clarification.
what constitutes carrier spam?
does that mean the whole fleet is just carriers? can you use support ships and cap ships as well? if so, how many, what kind, and what proportion?
i mean, i think most of us play with mixed fleets but the most numerous ship in our endgame fleets is the carrier, because, you know, its probably the best option.
does it still count as carrier spam if your fleet is 50% carriers, and 50% support ships?
As I said before, I don't believe many players think carrier spam = instant win. My point is that carriers make up a disproprtionate size of an "optimal" fleet.
Guys, I think we need to reschedule for next Friday night. Let me know.
Watched the game you posted. I could not make sense of your gameplay AT ALL. 49 minutes into the game you had still not built a fleet, meanwhile the guy next door had 15 illuminators at least, plus some drone hosts, and was attacking you. Then I finally realized WHY I couldn't make sense of your gameplay. The replay was screwed, LOL (crashed at the 50th minute).
Maybe when replays get fixed we can see you beat some carriers.
Who said I was in the "omg carriers are OP" camp? I just said defeating players of significantly lesser skill levels is meaningless.
To reiterate my position, I think a lot of this stems from different interpretations of "balance". To the "carrier killer" side, it's irrelevant that the carrier is a strong unit, because there are ways to beat it. To the "carrier spammer" side, it's irrelevant that there are ways to beat the carrier, because its unmatched mobility and firepower potential preclude a wide range of strategies. I find this a lot on discussion boards, where the underlying disagreement isn't over the facts, but rather the definitions.
Not in this case for if carriers where so OP as some claim it would have too totaly make up for their lower skill lvl. If it doesn't carriers aren't that OP, don't you agree? Things that are trully OP are things that make experience partialy or fully useless against players that don't abuse them, once you learn too abuse them.
Grtz,[_]-Flipkik
Carriers are a wee bit overpowered....but they are still very counterable. If the carrier killers are feeling punchy, they should try for a win while making NO CARRIERS. Should make things more interesting, especially considering the skill disparity.
It should also put the final nail in the Carrier OP Coffin...unless of course the Carrier spammers play really well and win.
Your definition of OP is so far beyond what (I believe) anyone is claiming. If carriers were OP to that extent, then the pros would be carrier spamming. No one claims they are unbeatable.
Pros do carrier spam. I'm not saying they all do it exclusively, under all circumstances. But they do it. Of course, I agree this still doesn't mean carriers are OP.
Then why complain if they aren't OP too the extend of unbeatable? If I may ask or course. If you can beat something there is no reason too flame it, right?
What? Wow, no.
IF something is significantly OP it ruins the game. Anything can be beaten by sheer luck, chance, skill level difference, etc. If you played a total noobs who spammed carriers then you might still win, there is such a wide range of skill levels you cannot be sure you'r stomping a inferior player.
Now, let's say in 50 games you played a superior skill player using carriers and consistently won without using carriers, then you could say something. Mostly likely though, you probably lost.
Moreover Carriers force everyone else to use carriers, even the poster said TO COUNTER CARRIERS YOU NEED YOUR OWN CARRIERs. This pidgeonholes people into playing a game a certain way or losing without a lot of freedom. Furthermore, we've said that countering carriers costs more than building them.
The carrier is not the most healthiest thing right now for SINs. I personally know a friend who quit SINs because of the state of carriers. He'll be back after the beta changes.
Again, I am in favor of very delicately bringing carriers more into balance...I have been saying for ages they are a little bit overpowered. But the game really is balanced now. In the old days, I could beat just about anyone with LRF style frigates. And I was using Vasari...Illuminator spammers were a nightmare, and the "how do I beat Illums" threads were just as heated. So not only was the game imbalanced towards LRF, but Advent had an edge if they survived the opening of the game.
In 1.05 never built LF's...I almost never built HC's, unless I played TEC, and I only made support frigates to fight the tougher opponents. Yes, everyone needs carriers in 1.1, because every ship has a use in the fleet. Even LF's and Flak! Carriers are now the backbone of the fleet, but need the other ships for support, and to keep ships like LF from hunting them down. Every ship has a purpose now, so I would say the game is much more balanced.
It is also more time consuming, and requires more management. I used to just wreck people back in the 1.05 and earlier days, because they wouldn't have any ships to retreat...nowadays they get some carriers to escape. I have said all along carriers are a bit OP, but they are OP equally for everyone, which is a good thing. Hopefully the new changes bring them in line a bit...but by no means is the game in worse shape than it was in 1.05 from a balance perspective.
And a note on bombers, bombers are what you make if the other guy has no fighter cover....most players don't use bombers anymore because more players have fighter support. But if they DON'T you can wreck heavy armor ships with Bombers, they are very powerful.
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