There has been a lot of discussion lately about balancing the Strike Craft/Carriers and Its been observed the main problem is the un-counterable strike craft that focus fire on your capital ships making it go down in seconds. I thought there has to be a more elegant solution to just buffing Flaks, and while I do support a Flak buff and preventing Carriers from instantly replacing their SC without any cost, I also always wondered why SINs never had the elegant Interceptor.
Interceptor are designed for 1 thing: to destroy other strike craft, fighters and bombers in a Air-Superority mission. Their primarily mission and purpose is dirty messy dogfighting, taking the fight to the fighters/bombers and protecting the main capital ships from Strike Craft attacks. (There is some conflict with the real world definition of interceptors, but for the purpose of this thread we're going to take the Sci-Fi definition of specialized dogfighters.)
Bajorian Interceptor, Star Trek ; Colonial Viper Mark VII, Battlestar Galactica
The Interceptor is designed to be a class below the fighter and the bombers. Fighters being generally multipurpose can still take out capital ships by focus fire, while bombers will take them out in 2-3 passes (1 late game), Interceptors will do close to zero damage to ships larger than a LRM and cannot take out a HC or Capital Ships; they are meant purely for taking down other SC. In the spectrum of strike craft balance:
low Lethality against ships high
| ---------------------------------- | --------------------------------------|
Interceptor (none) Fighter (moderate) Bomber (Very high)
♣ ♦ ♥
WING COMMANDER Strike Craft.
♣ - The Bearcat Interceptor, developed as a pure interceptor customized to destroy other fighters
♦ - The Hellcat V Multipurpose Fighter
♥ - The Shrike Torpedo Bomber
The Thunderbolt Star Fury from Babylon 5, a remarkable improvement from the original Star Fury, and excelling at a Interceptor Role against enemy fighters.
In terms of lethality against Strike Craft, the scale is below.
low Lethality against SC high
| ---------------------------------- | ------------------------------------ |
Bomber (none) Fighter (multipurpose) Interceptor (high)
Star Wars
The underrated Y-Wing Well-known X-Wing A-Wing, fastest ship in the Rebel Alliance
In almost all popular Science-Fiction we see Interceptor craft. In Battlestar Galactica, Vipers don't attack Cylon basestars, they take out the raiders (bombers do that) one could argue there are only Interceptors and Bombers in depicted battles on Battlestar Galactica. In Star-Wars we have esp. designed A-Wings and Tie Interceptors to have a more specialized role in dog-fighting. In real life, the F-16 (a interceptor) is considered to be better than the multipurpose F-14 Tomcat in air to air combat and is the primarily first choice for such roles.
Why we need Interceptors in SINs
The problem with just having fighters and bombers, is when the enemy spams a lot of fighters, they are effective against large ships as well as other fighters. In a fighter and fighter war, the person with the most fighters (Flak withstanding) wins hence to effectively counter his fighters you just need more fighters than he does. What if you only make SC to begin with to counter his SC? You end up having to dump a significant amount of your fleet just to counter 1 aspect of his fleet. This problem is solved with Interceptors. Interceptors will engage in dog-fights with enemy fighters and effectively protect your own ships, and if you are relying on a melee shp-to-ship combat strategy you can blunt his fighter/bombers with your own interceptors. Note, Interceptors will still take losses from fighters, but fighters will need to fight at at least a 2/3 to 1 advantage to defeat interceptors. The cost-effectiveness of Interceptors will make those 1 or 2 SC slots on regular capital ships much more useful as now you could load up on Interceptors to better protect your capital ships against enemy SC despite being outnumbered. Interceptors will receive a 75% huge penalty received dmg penalty from enemy fighter/interceptors for targetting bombers if in the presence of their own escorts. (If the player micros to target the enemy bombers instead of enemy fighters/Int erceptors)
Interceptors will offer more and better Tactics in SINs.
People will now have to use ALL THREE TYPES of SC to achieve the best results. He will now need to have the correct ratios of Interceptors to counter other Interceptors, Fighters to support your own Interceptors, and escorting bombers while also doing some dmg to enemy ships, all the while protecting your own bombers which will now be the primarily attack SC. To ensure, Interceptors do not annhilate bomber SC and effectively moving them from the game, make them target enemy Interceptors and fighters first before they target the bombers, add to the fact Interceptors cannot dmg enemy ships larger than a LRM (and even for them they will do crappy dmg per sec) it makes Interceptors fit in perfectly with the SINs game. This adds more dept to SINs and more strategic planning in the allocation of SC to Carrier groups.
Yes this will make the counter table more complicated, but thats what happens when you add tactics and dept to a game.
I'd gladly appreciate any suggestions, and I really hope Ironclad takes a serious look at my proposal. (Dorian)
Now Enjoy the deadly Imperial TIE interceptors:
OBJECTION & REBUTTAL COLUMN
—"fighters already fill this role..."
No they don't, a fighter vs. a fighter will be equal. Fighters are significantly good at destroying ships, even capital ships leading many players to make purly all fighter SC for their carrier fleets because essentially as I mentioned you can only counter him by having more fighters then he does which if he is going for a pure SC-spam fleet and you aren't it makes it very difficult to counter fighters. With the addition of Interceptors Fighters will again be even more crucial to serve the role as Escort Fighters protecting bombers and dog-fighting Interceptors.
—"Bombers will be obsolete because now they have 3 counters" (assuming Flak is buffed)
No, they won't. Firstly Flak should counter all SC, regardless of if they are bombers/fighters/Interceptors. Also Interceptors will only be able to target bombers with impunity only if the bombers do not have their own fighter/Interceptor escort to get slaughtered which happens already anyway if bombers don't have fighter backup against enemy fighters. Bombers need escorts, is that something new? If you do escort them, then there is little difference with the addition of interceptors apart from now you need to tactically manage your ratios more. Which is a good thing.
—This will make everyone go back to LRF spam because the interceptors will take out all the strike craft that can take out the LRF.
No, it won't. The Interceptors will still be able to take out LRFs pretty decently, Interceptors will not be able to damage any ships larger than LRFs. Furthermore, everyone won't spam Interceptors because they can't damage large ships at all. Furthermore Fighters will still be able to defeat Interceptors in mass and if they mix in a few of their own Interceptors they will surely win.
— "Why not have the fighter changed to the stats of the interceptor? That way fighters can't take down crusiers or caps."
No, that is a bad idea because the fighter does have an important role right now. Also that'll completely make the bombers obsolete and un-tendable. Fighters should be able to take out heavier ships while being able to fight interceptors in a multi-purpose role. Also just replacing the fighter with the interceptor is limiting tactical options again to two types of strike craft.
—I played a game last night where I was going against [_] Tax in a 2v3 (my two allies were playing another [_] player). He had more fighters then me and had air superiority, even when I ended up with more physical carriers as I lacked the AM to replace the SC. The game was largely a stalemate with my egg leveling up under a repair cloud while I pumped out LF and LRMs and tried to kill his carriers. It wasn't his fighters that I was worried about killing my cap - it was the assailants or HCs!!! Due to tactics, I was able to last. An interceptor would not have made a difference as we would have both spammed them and ended up in the same situation...
This is a Straw Man Argument but in any event Yes, it would have helped. With interceptors included it would have ALL mattered on the ratio of Interceptors/Fighters/Bombers. If you had a higher ratio of intercepters then you would have won allowing some of your bombers to damage his carriers if you didn't you would have had to change your ratio, this is called adding tactics to the game. In this event YOU WERE BOTH CARRIER SPAMMING, in addition to letting players depend on the ratio, Interceptors would allow non-carrier spammers to use Interceptors to protect their ships. Should this not be an option?
i spent half an hour writing just about the exact same thing as you, then i posted just to find you got there before me...
damn you!
jokes, but yeah, i totally agree, thought i thought for simplicity, all light carriers and caps (bar carrier caps) would carry interceptors good at everything (anti-fighter, anti-interceptor, anti-bomber) but not as effecient in each. then, for flavour, i thought planet based hangars and carrier caps could have a choice so as to specialise.
think about it, it gives carrier caps a purpose again, being the only mobile platform for heavy bombers, and lets you choose between keeping the skies free of heavier bombers (i.e. fighter layout) or going for the knockout (bomber layout)
i was also thinking that strikecraft armor should be dropped, maybe even completely axed (after all, they are tiny little things) making them realistically suceptible to triple A fire (though that means making flak weapons less accurate to compensate, overall, means its just as good to get lucky than to be a good shot)
my overall idea is to make SC as realistic as possible, i.e. imagine an ant running (or whatever ants do) through a burning doll house (lets get scale right) its possible to survive, but its not a walk in the park, u have to be very lucky not to have ur ass shot off. this should (i hope) balance the huge damage potential SC have in numbers with their very low survivability, it should make the first few mins of a battle crucial, then when numbers thin out the manufacturing time should balance out to keep a fair average number of SC in play
after reading all the posts i have to ask why not keep it simple, instead of adding a third type of SC why not change the fighters to interceptors that have low or no armor, are very fast, with moderate weapons, and change the bombers into fighter-bombers, a hybrid of the two types with more armor than intercepts, not as fast with light weapons and a projectile payload. the idea is fighter-bombers are able to hold their own against other F-Bs (they either attack another vessel or engage in dogfighting), but will be struck out of the sky by the interceptors which are pure dogfighters and unless attack in full force say 6 will not make any realistic impact on anything bigger than a frigate. it allows for cap ship abilities to change the outcome of a battle when the fight is evenly matched.
the policy i have always used is having a 2-to-1 ratio of fighters-to-bombers (2 fighters for every bomber), for me it has worked i usually have enough fighters to occupy the enemy fighters and engage the enemy bombers while my bombers are unhindered, but that's besides the point. everything i've read i agree with in some sense, i can't wait to see what stardock does with all the ideas already posted or anybody who is working on a mod for SINS.
Hi, everyone thank you for generous support. However, I am now currently working on my other project: Flak for Capital Ships thread. Hence I will no longer be supporting this thread.
Unfortunately it is my opinion that this thread has been irrecovocably destroyed by trolls and vehement arguements I will repackage this thread in the near future. This was an ambitious idea that was viciously attacked, and it was my opinion I was not quite ready to post this. This idea will be back, with much more analysis and thought out situations to better prepare an defense against haters and trolls.
This idea, is not dead, it will be back.
Adieu
CreditSuisse, if you're going to spew out flames against all the constructive critism you get, then how do you ever expect to have a civilized discussion? Sorry, but blowing off the blatant flaws in your "great scheme" is just as bad- if not worse- as the people who truly troll away.
No one on the forums- or in life- is obligated to give you a pat on the head while singing your praises. Sometimes people deliberately believe that you're wrong, and can even thoughtfully state their reasons for believing so. Get used to it, and stop pretending that you're above critique.
I think interceptors are a bad idea because there is no purpose to having a direct CARRIER counter built by CARRIERs. Not only that, flak frigates already fill the same niche that interceptors would take. What is the point of adding a unit that 1) isn't unique, 2) doesn't add anything new to the game, 3) Isn't NEEDED, and 4) Makes the game revolve around a single unit type even moreso than before?
I like the inteceptor idea only on one condition is that it has no capability to attack anything other than strike craft. Now however SINS in it's current selection of strike craft is not really needed since the only thing that has strike craft is capital ships and escort carriers. Even if you destroy the strike craft you need to kill the ships to keep them from comming. Another reason on why I end up bomber heavy in SINS. MY solution is instead of just adding 1 strike craft add a few others. Here is a sugestion.
Assault Gunship (strategic bomber) Think of this as a seige strike crafts that can patricipate in nukeing planets and attack capital ships with boarding parties. Slow compaired to other strike craft that fighters and inteceptors will take this down in no time but have enough shielding that flak turrets will have to take some time before taking this out. It wll be so large that there will only be 1 to 3 per squadron as they are crewed by more that one. (Trying to imagine the Vassari gunship carrying a variment of shock troopers for quick subjegation of planets.)
Strike Fighter (fighter bomber varient) This is like the jack of all trades and master of none. This is a larger fighter which can attack other strike craft and carry a limited payload of bombs to attack ships and even capital ships. If you are having problems to decide if you want fighters or bombers then this is a good third choice. However you will find it outmatched 1 on 1 against fighters and inteceptors as well as it dosn't seem to do damage on capital ships fast enough compared to the bombers.
i sorta like the idea of the assault gunship, though mixing planet bombing with a (supposedly) highly effective cap ship attack in the form of an already hard-to-counter Strikecraft seems very unbalanced. also, to be completely honest, i could live without it quite happily
however the strike fighter adds a FOURTH SC option to the game (counting the Interceptor but not your Assault Gunship) i mean, we now have fighters, Interceptors, and Strike Fighters... and all its doing is blurring the lines between what each is supposed to do. Some people have also suggested having the Interceptor do the same thing as your strike fighter. i myself came up with a similar idea, but then decided it wasnt worthwhile.
dont get me wrong, i think SC could do with some sort of change, (i wrote a thread about it, go check it out) but i dont think this is the answer, sorry.
i think the biggest problem is that Bombers only do catastrophic damage in their swarming runs, and Fighters often do the same and wont actually provide area defense against bombers/fighters around your fleet, leaving flak capable units to defend, and you often wont have enough of those to cover your fleet.
not sure if anyone will reply (shields to max against heavy incoming fire!!), but I actually had a similar idea, that added 4 new strikecraft-
Gunship- a lighter version of the bomber that has slightly better armor and agility as well as speed, the gunship is designed to take on frigate and cruiser targets
Strike Fighter- similar to the Gunship, but in a more multipurpose role with fewer weapons
Assault Boat- a close range assault strikecraft that dispatches boarding parties to destroy enemy ships
Torpedo Bomber (Vasari only)- a Bomber firing Torpedoes instead of Missiles
standard fighters would take on a more anti-strikecraft role, while strike fighters would take on the role currently occupied by fighters, with the other craft fulfilling new roles. Please note that larger Gunship-type frigates are also an idea I have; these would be escort craft for protection of capital ships against LRFs
i think this idea is a little bit dead mate... thanks for trying though...
IT WILL LIVE I SAY!!
IT MAY NOT LIVE IN THIS MOD OF YOURS, BUT IT WILL LIVE IN MINE!!
WITH VALOR!!!!!!!
=P touche
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account