There has been a lot of discussion lately about balancing the Strike Craft/Carriers and Its been observed the main problem is the un-counterable strike craft that focus fire on your capital ships making it go down in seconds. I thought there has to be a more elegant solution to just buffing Flaks, and while I do support a Flak buff and preventing Carriers from instantly replacing their SC without any cost, I also always wondered why SINs never had the elegant Interceptor.
Interceptor are designed for 1 thing: to destroy other strike craft, fighters and bombers in a Air-Superority mission. Their primarily mission and purpose is dirty messy dogfighting, taking the fight to the fighters/bombers and protecting the main capital ships from Strike Craft attacks. (There is some conflict with the real world definition of interceptors, but for the purpose of this thread we're going to take the Sci-Fi definition of specialized dogfighters.)
Bajorian Interceptor, Star Trek ; Colonial Viper Mark VII, Battlestar Galactica
The Interceptor is designed to be a class below the fighter and the bombers. Fighters being generally multipurpose can still take out capital ships by focus fire, while bombers will take them out in 2-3 passes (1 late game), Interceptors will do close to zero damage to ships larger than a LRM and cannot take out a HC or Capital Ships; they are meant purely for taking down other SC. In the spectrum of strike craft balance:
low Lethality against ships high
| ---------------------------------- | --------------------------------------|
Interceptor (none) Fighter (moderate) Bomber (Very high)
♣ ♦ ♥
WING COMMANDER Strike Craft.
♣ - The Bearcat Interceptor, developed as a pure interceptor customized to destroy other fighters
♦ - The Hellcat V Multipurpose Fighter
♥ - The Shrike Torpedo Bomber
The Thunderbolt Star Fury from Babylon 5, a remarkable improvement from the original Star Fury, and excelling at a Interceptor Role against enemy fighters.
In terms of lethality against Strike Craft, the scale is below.
low Lethality against SC high
| ---------------------------------- | ------------------------------------ |
Bomber (none) Fighter (multipurpose) Interceptor (high)
Star Wars
The underrated Y-Wing Well-known X-Wing A-Wing, fastest ship in the Rebel Alliance
In almost all popular Science-Fiction we see Interceptor craft. In Battlestar Galactica, Vipers don't attack Cylon basestars, they take out the raiders (bombers do that) one could argue there are only Interceptors and Bombers in depicted battles on Battlestar Galactica. In Star-Wars we have esp. designed A-Wings and Tie Interceptors to have a more specialized role in dog-fighting. In real life, the F-16 (a interceptor) is considered to be better than the multipurpose F-14 Tomcat in air to air combat and is the primarily first choice for such roles.
Why we need Interceptors in SINs
The problem with just having fighters and bombers, is when the enemy spams a lot of fighters, they are effective against large ships as well as other fighters. In a fighter and fighter war, the person with the most fighters (Flak withstanding) wins hence to effectively counter his fighters you just need more fighters than he does. What if you only make SC to begin with to counter his SC? You end up having to dump a significant amount of your fleet just to counter 1 aspect of his fleet. This problem is solved with Interceptors. Interceptors will engage in dog-fights with enemy fighters and effectively protect your own ships, and if you are relying on a melee shp-to-ship combat strategy you can blunt his fighter/bombers with your own interceptors. Note, Interceptors will still take losses from fighters, but fighters will need to fight at at least a 2/3 to 1 advantage to defeat interceptors. The cost-effectiveness of Interceptors will make those 1 or 2 SC slots on regular capital ships much more useful as now you could load up on Interceptors to better protect your capital ships against enemy SC despite being outnumbered. Interceptors will receive a 75% huge penalty received dmg penalty from enemy fighter/interceptors for targetting bombers if in the presence of their own escorts. (If the player micros to target the enemy bombers instead of enemy fighters/Int erceptors)
Interceptors will offer more and better Tactics in SINs.
People will now have to use ALL THREE TYPES of SC to achieve the best results. He will now need to have the correct ratios of Interceptors to counter other Interceptors, Fighters to support your own Interceptors, and escorting bombers while also doing some dmg to enemy ships, all the while protecting your own bombers which will now be the primarily attack SC. To ensure, Interceptors do not annhilate bomber SC and effectively moving them from the game, make them target enemy Interceptors and fighters first before they target the bombers, add to the fact Interceptors cannot dmg enemy ships larger than a LRM (and even for them they will do crappy dmg per sec) it makes Interceptors fit in perfectly with the SINs game. This adds more dept to SINs and more strategic planning in the allocation of SC to Carrier groups.
Yes this will make the counter table more complicated, but thats what happens when you add tactics and dept to a game.
I'd gladly appreciate any suggestions, and I really hope Ironclad takes a serious look at my proposal. (Dorian)
Now Enjoy the deadly Imperial TIE interceptors:
OBJECTION & REBUTTAL COLUMN
—"fighters already fill this role..."
No they don't, a fighter vs. a fighter will be equal. Fighters are significantly good at destroying ships, even capital ships leading many players to make purly all fighter SC for their carrier fleets because essentially as I mentioned you can only counter him by having more fighters then he does which if he is going for a pure SC-spam fleet and you aren't it makes it very difficult to counter fighters. With the addition of Interceptors Fighters will again be even more crucial to serve the role as Escort Fighters protecting bombers and dog-fighting Interceptors.
—"Bombers will be obsolete because now they have 3 counters" (assuming Flak is buffed)
No, they won't. Firstly Flak should counter all SC, regardless of if they are bombers/fighters/Interceptors. Also Interceptors will only be able to target bombers with impunity only if the bombers do not have their own fighter/Interceptor escort to get slaughtered which happens already anyway if bombers don't have fighter backup against enemy fighters. Bombers need escorts, is that something new? If you do escort them, then there is little difference with the addition of interceptors apart from now you need to tactically manage your ratios more. Which is a good thing.
—This will make everyone go back to LRF spam because the interceptors will take out all the strike craft that can take out the LRF.
No, it won't. The Interceptors will still be able to take out LRFs pretty decently, Interceptors will not be able to damage any ships larger than LRFs. Furthermore, everyone won't spam Interceptors because they can't damage large ships at all. Furthermore Fighters will still be able to defeat Interceptors in mass and if they mix in a few of their own Interceptors they will surely win.
— "Why not have the fighter changed to the stats of the interceptor? That way fighters can't take down crusiers or caps."
No, that is a bad idea because the fighter does have an important role right now. Also that'll completely make the bombers obsolete and un-tendable. Fighters should be able to take out heavier ships while being able to fight interceptors in a multi-purpose role. Also just replacing the fighter with the interceptor is limiting tactical options again to two types of strike craft.
—I played a game last night where I was going against [_] Tax in a 2v3 (my two allies were playing another [_] player). He had more fighters then me and had air superiority, even when I ended up with more physical carriers as I lacked the AM to replace the SC. The game was largely a stalemate with my egg leveling up under a repair cloud while I pumped out LF and LRMs and tried to kill his carriers. It wasn't his fighters that I was worried about killing my cap - it was the assailants or HCs!!! Due to tactics, I was able to last. An interceptor would not have made a difference as we would have both spammed them and ended up in the same situation...
This is a Straw Man Argument but in any event Yes, it would have helped. With interceptors included it would have ALL mattered on the ratio of Interceptors/Fighters/Bombers. If you had a higher ratio of intercepters then you would have won allowing some of your bombers to damage his carriers if you didn't you would have had to change your ratio, this is called adding tactics to the game. In this event YOU WERE BOTH CARRIER SPAMMING, in addition to letting players depend on the ratio, Interceptors would allow non-carrier spammers to use Interceptors to protect their ships. Should this not be an option?
This would be a Boss Awesome idea if it could implimented. Either via mod or mainstream.
Strike Craft stances? That is a great idea mate.
That would solve a lot of issues, and we know this can be done as in Entrenchment the Fleet Management option is implemented for all regular ships.
I'd glad to see people making this a better and better idea. Keep them coming! As long as the Developer's ignore the demagogues in this thread, they should see this is a promising novel idea!
Credit - YOU linked to a wiki post on interceptors
You said
I called you on it and said "Yes I do because I read the link. It states that interceptors were built to intercept bombers, something that Subs alreadys has with the fighter SC.
You seem to love telling people that they have presented an XYZ argument, and are therefore wrong. You seem to love telling people we cannot have a logical argument. You did it to How - I saw him respond with his trade. Mine is as a programmer - so I do understand logic as I do it daily when creating applications.
I also understand English and debating. You tried to get a support argument from wikipedia using real life facts to back you up and you were wrong. In Star Wars they have a greater varierty of SC including the Star Wars universe definition of interceptors. But they also have gun boats. They have tractor beams (which can lock onto fighters in the SW universe). They also have insanely modified and manuverable freightors that are the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. Sins does not have this - they have created two roles.
Bombers to kill heavy ships
Fighters to kill bombers, fighters and LRMs
They then have the following aditional counters etc...
Flak and some cap abilities to kill fighters
LF to kill carriers, but get murdered by LRMs
HC kill most things due to DPS.
etc... etc...
The devs didn't just throw things out there without any thought you know....
Hack, I really want to end this argument and unless you want to Sabatoge this thread like a demagogue, then stop.
I'll edit the original post to state we're using the Sci-Fi classifcation of interceptors like I mentioned. It fits SINs well and SINs could just implement that. The thread already talked about in detail how interceptors could easily fit in a role.
This is what happened.
Person A (me) with Position X (interceptors would be good for SINs, and here's how it would work)
Person B (Hack) with position Y (real life def. of interceptors does not fit with Dorian's idea of Interceptors)
Now you attack me with an ad homimum "I don't think you know what you're talking about and you only care about balancing SC" <- This is putting words in my mouth. Then now you go because of Position Y, you conclude Position X must be wrong.
Nevermind the fact, I already described HOW it was going to work and what ROLE it would play in SINs. You go "Oh, well thats not the role in real life, so your idea is completely worthless." Position X is NOT EVEN RELATED TO POSITION Y. You pointing out a contradiction in the real (planes) definition of interceptors (does this reall matter?) does not invalidate my thread IN ANY WAY. You suggesting it does was complete and balatant DEMAGOGUERY. So please stay out, if not stay and provide some constructive suggestions to help make this idea work. Otherwise you're just in here to flame and intentionally sabatoge someone's idea.
Then provide constructive criticism instead of cheap shots and demagoguery.
Most people are agreeing that this idea can work and provide a good tactical addition to the game.
question: everyone here uses the fleet option to keep anti-SC frigets close to their caps and are still finding it ineffective right?
Read the thread: "do Flak Frigates suck or what?" by agent of Karma, who is widely regardled as an un-baised poster on the subject of carrier spam.
not finding it could just be that the search function sucks tho
One of spiralblitz's points was that fixing flak and enhancing existing capships is more elegant solution. I agree with this. The idea of intercepters wizzing around is neat, but they are encroaching on both the flack cruiser (anti SC) and fighter (anti long range frigate, anti bomber) roles. This makes the interceptor redundant, although not without merits. An interceptor would be better than the flak frigate as it exists today. The flak ship today seems to be easily kited away from the fleet its protecting by the flight paths of the SC, and cannot counter bombers at range.
An alternative would be to replace Flak ships with packs of interceptors made from the frigate factory. Perhaps the flak ships could be changed into packs of gun boats or interceptors that launch from a mirv...or barfed from a pink space pony.
My point is that the interceptor idea is nice, but the role that credit laid out seems to be the exact role of a flak cruiser (Anti SC, anti Long Range). Could a mod replacing flak with interceptors work?
I agree that Sins does should have have much emphasis on strikecraft, but interceptors are not the solution imo. Each race should get unique SC-specific upgrades. This will add to uniqueness, but will not add a unit whose role is already fulfilled.
For example:
upgrade: Ace Pilots - Introduces new training programs for SC pilots allowing them to learn new combat manoeuvres giving them better turning rates, higher top speed, superior acceleration etc.
Now for my important point:
carriers can only support a limited number of squads. This means that the more types of SC there are, the fewer SC you have of each type, right? This means that a player will not be able to get enough SC of each type due to limited squadron numbers during late game.
Late game, players will need to spam even more carriers to get enough of each type of SC for them to be effective.
It's already been stated the Interceptor is NOT replacing the figher and its role is NOT one that is furfilled.
Please read the Rebuttal section in the original post.
Only 2 types of strike craft will never let SINs get more emphasis on Strike Craft and SC upgrades with only 2 types will not add any emphasis or dept. We need to get beyond the limitions of just figher and bomber. You mentioned with your suggestion that people will need to spam even more carriers. That is not something we want.
How many time do I have to post this quote YOU put up
It was YOU who posted the wiki link - as such it is YOUR idea of interceptors as posted by the supporting link I keep objecting to and then being called names and told I am sabotaging YOUR thread...
I wasn't aware I was out for political power!!!
You want something constructive? Fine
I LIKE CARRIERS AS THEY ARE AS I CAN PLAY WITH AND AGAINST THEM...
Yeah interceptors should kill bombers and fighters, fighters should only kill frigates! YEY WORKS
Those two posts are not worth an response. They don't even care about the logical arguments of this thread.
Hack87, who really is a hack, is playing the word game with me. "Oh, interceptors are not for dog-fighting, what you're referring to is "air-superiority" fighter so this entire thread fails because he messed up on some real-world definitions that doesn't even apply to his implementation. Can anyone see this cheap-trick?
Also, I repeatedly mentioned for the purposes of this thread, We're going to call the interceptor the equalivilent of the Air-Superiority Fighter specialized to dog-fight. (This is Science-Fiction, is Hack87 a real-life definition Nazi? Yes, and he thinks because this thread is not 100% accurate to the real-life role of the aor-superiority the entire idea fails.)
He also is probably going to babble about "Oh this role is always furfilled by fighters, when I've already wrote in the Rebuttal section why it is NOT furfilled, and how Interceptors can add tactical dept."
Watch for Hack87 to continue trolling this thread, ignoring the fact we've already addressed this in the original post.
Keep the ideas coming guys. The Strike Craft stance one is a good idea.
Of course Strike craft stance would a really good thing to include in Sins!This can even wonderful to reaquest a carrier fighter to defend its fleet against carrier.
Maybe with stance, interceptor addition is no longer necessary as interceptor could be a fighter with a stance to shoot down all others bombers...what do you think about that?
I would like to post a PM that CreditSuisse sent me
************************************************************************************
I deleted the wiki link, happy?
Now please leave my thread now and forever. You're just a miserable hater and a scumbag. I bet you never bothered to write a comprehension idea thread and you like just to shoot down other people's ideas and see them fail while snickering in the back. Judas.
You also haven't read my response. You committed a severe logic fallacy and demogoguery Its sad you can't see that.
You: Oh this guy, posted a wiki link (not even related to the idea implementation) that didn't match up to his concept of interceptors.
THUS THE ENTIRE IDEA MUST BE SHIT. OMG OMG#$@#$@#$!! LOLOLOL.
wow.
So let me respond without name calling etc...
BTW - acording your your favourite site - wikipedia
"The term Judas has entered many languages as a synonym for betrayer"
How can I betray you? I never had any allegence to you in the first place. I had a fundamental disagreement with your original position from the start. So how can I have betrayed you? Did I change my position? Let me think for a minute... Hmmm. I believe the answer is NO!!!
Technically it is NOT your thread - stardock own is so I can post to it as long as a moderator does not object. You just setup the initial discussion point, and as such can be said to be to "owner" of the idea
Here are some comprehensive idea threads I have started
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/337559
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/318360
In addition, I regularly post helpful posts to people with connection issues etc... to HELP them.
Further I did read your post and then pointed out why one of your supporting references is flawed. This is called debating. So you have doe a quick edit to remove the wiki link, thereby hiding the evidence....
I am also very supportive of good ideas etc... I just don't believe that in your case this is a good idea so am making sure that you don't jump up and down enough to get a change made to a game I have been playing for close to a year without issues with carriers because you cannot work them out.
So let me repeat my argument.
An interceptor is a fast plane that gets to an area/altitude quickly. It is designed to shoot down bombers. What you need is an AIR-SUPERIORITY SC that only attacks fighters. I still believe the idea is flawed as the fighter SC fulfills all the roles required:
1) Shoots down bombers - these kill caps and HCs quickly
2) Shoots down other fighters (protecting YOUR bombers and LRMs)
3) They kill LRM very effectively
So there is no need to have another ship that shoots down X if condition Y is met, otherwise does Z - this just makes it even harder for the average player to understand the interactions, which actually will make it easier for the "pros" who take the time to understand them to beat up on people
Finally - I have posted this mostly because you insulted me via PM so I am putting it back in the public forum of "your" thread. Feel free to hit the report button on me as you have been for everyone else you are getting disagreement from. That is not debating. Also it is not demogoguery (a word you seem to use in every reply to me). That is censorship. Others must not be able to voice a different opinion to my own.... If Kyro or any other mod has an issue with this, I will discuss it with them in a professional, polite manner to resovle any points of contention.
Ok guys let's focus on Sins upgrade?
I guess a good compromise will be the following :
I'm pretty sure this idea of stance for strike craft idea is the best solution for Sins upgrade.
Ps : sorry for these two close posts with the same content...but for this stance is very important..
nah i think both the stance and intercepters are needed
if you think about actuall combat aircraft you usually have air-supiriorty (um i think its the F-18 that fills this role) bombers ( like the B-2) and fighter bombers ( which is most of the rest of them)
and well the stance thing would just be conveniant tho a was thinking that a direct target prioritization option in the fleet options would be better
Sorry Hack,
I'm actually glad you posted my PM, so now everyone can clearly see your fallacy. I've already address your "Fighters furfill this argument, why you are wrong, and how Interceptors will add to the game" If you cant be brothered to actually read my arguments in the original post, then you're the one who is really just venting - not debating.
I'm actually in my University's Parliamentary Debate Team that competes on the APDA Northeast Circuit and in real debate you would have lost severe amount of speaker points for repeatedly dropping your opponents points multiple times and pretending catching me on a definition instead of talking about the real issues can actually win you the debate. We call you a first-year Novice - a crappy one too, one that probably never even made States in High School LD/Policy/or PFD debate.
Everyone else, I believe actually that the Strike Craft stances actually helps more if Interceptors were in the game to enrich tactical options. With only the fighter, we still have the problem we have currently with everyone just using fighters and the only way to beat him is with more fighters.
I still believe the interceptor is a very solid idea, I can defend. Keep ideas coming!
uma... i dont think ppl really care if your part of your uni's debate team ... i personally think that your just shoe\wing off and are probably one of the most hotheaded people on the board
edit:and you use highlights and underlines too much redit: and bold to much as well
thats just my opinon tho...
reredit: the interceptor idea is good tho
Sorry everyone, I do tend to lose my cool and I really apologize, but Hack87 was being an intentional [censored] when he kept ignoring my points completely and then pretending he proved this entire idea sucked because he caught me on some real-world airplane definition of interceptors only attacking bombers. He tried to get in a definition's war I didn't play, because its pretty ridiculous that we can't be flexible about definitions in a sci-fiction game.
Once, again to everyone else I do apologize, normally I would not brag about being in debate, etc to anyone, but Hack87 really pushed the line. Please try to forgive me.
But also you mentioned: "the interceptor idea is good thou..."
uma~ it fits with the ideas of real world tatics as i metioned before
though its not by officail defintions and such tho...
Sigh
Here we go again Credit.. First I will discuss your OP you claim I haven't read.
OK - You said this
Fighters do very little damage to a cap as they are effective against light armor, not heavy. Lots of them can do damage. Enough ants can do damage to a human. Weight of numbers. It is BOMBERS that are the ones that do HEAVY damage.
Flak do more damage to fighters then bombers. Ergo they coutner fighters while fighters counter bombers, LRMs and other fighters.
So are you saying that they will have a 0% modifier vs caps? At the moment fighters are very low. You need 3+ fighters compared to bomber to do similar damage to a cap. If you are saying they will not have a 0% mod, then they are the same as fighters and therefore spamming them will have the same effect - they can kill a cap in sufficent numbers...
How nice - you are now using my argument as part of your original post. I hope you gave suitable credit. I KNOW this was not there when I originally read it. The fact I wrote it as a reply is just trivial realities which should not get in the way of your calling me names!!!
Now onto your post
You are 100% correct here. I didn't go to a US high school, therefore I COULD NOT make a States high school debating team. The flights alone would have been a real killer....
WRONG WRONG WRONG. As has been said by many other people you can beat them with a balanced fleet
1) Caps abilities to improve your own SC or kill theirs
2) LF and HCs to target the carriers as fighters are less effective against them. Also LF has an upgrade to impact the AM needed to replace SC. And they are faster then carriers.
3) Flak can shoot them down - you just need more then 2 in your fleet
4) Your own fighters can shoot them down, or kill LRM or bombers effectively. Once they have killed their primary targets, they can work on other ones. They don't do it as well, but they will do it given enough time. Here in lies the issue with your argument. You give them infinite time to kill your ships without doing something about it
Something else that should have been asked a long time ago - how long have you been playing Sins for? How many MP games have you played? I would like to hear your street cred listed...
Oh, and finally
You called me a Judas. I am STILL waiting to explain how I betrayed you. Where is this back I am sniggering in. And by calling me a miserable hater, are you implying I am bad at it or just unhappy doing it? I await your next insult in bold and red telling me about your intellectual superiority.
I HAVE read the Rebuttal section and I disagree.
If ineterceptors are added, then during late game, it is very likely that people will spam even more carriers in order to get sufficient numbers of each type of SC for them to be effective.
Regardless of what you want, that could very well happen
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