QUESTION:
Is it possible to counter the much-vaunted carrier and its associated strikecraft WITHOUT building carriers? I decided to test it personally.
SYNOPSIS:
I chose an online opponent whom I have played before, and whom my friends have played (and beaten). The people I play with consider him "mediocre." We played a 1v1, random small map. I chose vasari, he chose tec.
OPEN:
I dropped a mil lab right away, queued up a space whale, and spammed 5 scouts to find him. While waiting for the whale to come online and the scouts to find him I researched assailants. Found him, and he had dropped 2 civ labs. This was my cue to rush. His home planet was connected to the "main system" via a single asteroid chokepoint, so my plan was to take that asteroid first so that I could seal him in and also have a base of operations (my home planet was too far away to be able to replinish my attack, and my stream of forces would have to plow through too many neutral systems while being attacked the whole way).
I got to the asteroid with space whale and about 5 assailants. I took it easily, colonized it, and dropped a repair platform plus frig factory. He arrived just as I was doing this, and messaged me saying he had already lost, he shouldn't have gone eco, blah blah. I told him to continue the game because I didn't plan to build any carriers, and if it's true that "carrier spam rules" he had quite a large chance to win. He said it was going to be impossible. I told him that yes, by any reasonable measure that anyone on the street looking at it could muster, I already had the "strategic win." I had the chokepoint connecting his mini-system to the rest of the map, and it was fortified. My space whale was there, with 5 assailants, and I had repair and a frig factory. Yet, if there is anything to this "strikecraft own all" mystique, he had a chance for a "tactical win" I told him. So he continued the game.
MIDGAME:
He only had access to 2 roids in his "mini-system," so that's all he had besides his home planet. I, on the other hand, had the rest of the map, which included 1 desert, 3 terran planets (in addition to my home planet, which makes 4), and numerous asteroids, in addition to one neutral mining site with 3 mines. My plan was to build up the chokepoint roid with all my forces, not build any carriers of my own, and hope he built carriers so I could test whether they could be countered. Meanwhile, I sent my space whale (alone) in one direction, and a colony frig with a couple of assailants in another direction, in order to colonize the rest of the system.
My first spam at the roid was assailants. His initial attack was with cobalts and a Kol - easily repelled. His next attack was with Kol and lrms. I countered not only with my assailants, but with an additional scout spam (seeing as he had no cobalts). He was repelled. His 3rd attack was with the Kol, lrms, and no more than 2 or 3 carriers. At this point, just those few carriers was enough to seriously contest the roid, even though I had plenty of assailants. He managed to destroy the repair, destroy the frig factory, and bomb the roid down to nothing. I had to send my space whale back from half way across the system. I also dropped 2 frig factories on a terran planet connected to the roid, and from there I pumped as many skirmishers as I could, continuously. I managed to repel him back off the roid, and I recolonized the choke with the space whale, and rebuilt facilities.
ENDGAME:
At this point I knew he had carriers, so WE HAD OFFICIALLY ARRIVED AT THE TEST. I started my anti-carrier spam. Since it was a very small roid and I knew I could easily get to his carriers, I built tons of skirmishers NON-STOP. I built them at the roid, plus at the terran planet next door. I mixed in assailants as well, just in case. After a few minutes, his attack came. It was the Kol, carriers, and hoshikos vs. my skirmishers, assailants, and space whale.
He won, took that roid, then went up and took the terran planet. My jaw dropped. This exact conversation ensued:
Me: Apparently carriers are near impossible to counter without carriers of one's own.Him: Well, I had hoshikos too.Me: So what?Him: Well, they are pretty nasty.Me: But I had tons of skirmishers.Him: Yeah, but the hoshikos repair faster than your counters can damage Me: So your carriers plus hoshikos are a "press a button and win" button?Him: Yes.
CONCLUSION:
With a far, far superior strategic position which I had obtained, with the restriction that I would not build carriers, I could not beat a mediocre opponent who spammed carriers plus hoshikos. I had far more planets and far more resources. I only had to defend 1 system - the choke. The counters I spammed were far cheaper that his forces. I had every advantage. I don't suck at this game. But I lost.
At this point, unless the devs come out and say "the intended counter for carriers is carriers," I am ready to say that there is some sort of balance issue. Now, I did not test flak this game, but I've been told by everyone, including pros, that light frigs are a viable hard counter to carriers, plus this situation was ripe for them - there was no room for him to pull off tactics or maneuvering. In fact, this did not happen - he micro'd nothing. I, on the other hand, did micro. In particular, I grabbed my skirmisher fleet, and told it to attack every single carrier and hoshiko in the well.
I don't consider myself good or anything....but you are countering the carriers and ignoring their payload, strikecraft, so the way I see it of course you were going to lose. I mean, I know people say flak ships suck but I always keep a bit in my fleet and hope they are doing their job.
Are we talking Entrenchment 2.5 or Sins 1.13?
Well at least after several names exchanged between the two of us, there is something in common now. However, it wasn't the purest test as all three factions doesn't get Hoshikos, however in general carriers do have pretty heavy shields and hull points too already.
I conducted a causal Flak test myself yesterday. Can supreme micro of Dunov's Kols and Flak Frigates alone defeat Strike Craft? It was not a 1v1 but a 3v3 but the opportunity did come up where my opponent next to me started hard core bomber spamming with 25 + light carriers. Response : I build 24 Flak Frigates in 2 wings of 12 each, and 3 Kol's all having the Flak Burst ability and Dunov having Magetize. A huge battle commenced near my asteriod, where I jumped in first and he was already there.
"Bombers all come rushing towards me: I click Flak Burst" seemed to do little. 2nd Kol, right by my first one : Flak burst literally 1/3 to 1/2 of the bombers go down. 3rd one I missed almost everything so it was a waste but with my Flak Frigates jumping in on non-engage mode, I took out 40-50% of his bombers in under a minutes. I head towards his carriers on the far side of the planet, he makes me go on a loop-chase around the planet, and unfortionately my cap ship were about as fast as his carriers so I couldn't close the range much. I noticed he was by now focus firing on my Kols, and because we were in a long chase with ships spread out in a trail, the Flak Frigates were spread out in a string-like pattern not very effective and at this point the Bombers were not flying in a blob where Flak Burst would easily work. In the end I ended up retreating a badly damaged Kol, and losing the Dunov. I didn't get to take out a single carrier, I DID took out close to half of his bombers maybe even more, but I noticed he was back to full capacity in under 3 minutes while I was led on a wild goose chase faster than I had Anti-matter for more Falk Bursts.
Mass Flak does work. esp. the Kol's but it's only gonna buy you some extra minutes because it costs nothing to replace strike craft. AS I suspected Flak cannot win you battles, and rushing up melee units to knock out the Carriers does not work (anyone with a brain is gonna do what happened to me) as I was hping it would.
This is why I think buffing Flak really would do little to solve the problem. Killing, Strike Craft is not the problem as much as the fast cost-less replacability and the speed of replacing the strike craft.
If all he built was carriers + hoshiko then ti would be cake to counter him as TEC or Advent.Mass cobalts or mass disciples would slaughter him.
Vasari is much harder to do! This is cause of skirmisher crappy dps/fleet supply ratio even with upgrades. Usually you would be better off with enforcers but you would need innertia field (7 labs )
Another counter for tec would be LRMS+Flak, BUT it only works if you amass more fleet supply than him. This is hard in close games. You would need to keep your fleet very tight, you aslo would need Akkans with aura, pretty much onl;y way to keep fighters from shredding lrms. The LRMs would not killc arriers as they could run from you and you cant follow fast cause you would break formation, but you can turn back all close range enemy vessels and kill any cap ship that gets close.
Sins 1.13. I have entrenchment, but I'd probably have extreme trouble getting an online game with it, thus my tests are on Sins 1.13.
I will try to post some screenshots of the game, but not sure the replay will work good enough. Also, even if it does work, I've had trouble getting screenshots to post in the past.
Nope, can't upload a screenshot no matter what I do! Happens every time.
I think we still have a disagreement, because the way I see it you complain about tactics, and want them forcibly removed from the game. I don't mind tactics at all.
It is important to realize that what I was testing here was the units themselves, with NO tactics. He never did a "run around the gravc well with carriers" tactic (it wouldn't have worked for him anyway). He never did a "sit at the edge of the grav well, baiting me to chase, and then jump out as I approached" tactic (I wouldn't have played along even if he did). This wasn't about tactics, it was about straight units. He had his carriers, I had my counters, and they were all mixed and matched, sitting there in the same well.
I have a request that some so-called "pros" test this whole thing out, and post results here. If they can't counter carriers unless they have carriers themselves, then the issue is solved - nobody else can either. If they can, then there is a question: How hard was it for them to do it? If the answer is "hard," then the devs can decide whether that's an appropriate balance (I don't know if it is or isn't). If the answer is "easy" then I suppose the rest of us have some learning to do.
I also have a question. Were the results of my test "polluted" by the presence of Hoshikos? Some other expert can answer that - I'm not a tec player. I can say that I don't know how to counter them. In a game yesterday HC failed to counter them. In this game, skirmishers failed to counter them.
I tried mass skirmishers and could not kill carriers + hoshikos this game. I tried mass enforcers in a game yesterday and could not kill hoshikos that were essentially by themselves.
that's why i said its easy for tec and advent, much ahrder for vasari. And u need damage upgrades for the enforcers, thou a lot of hoshiko with demo bots wills top u.
Oh. Duhh. So what's the counter for vasari, besides enforcers with damage upgrade and inertia field (I won't get either - if straight enforcers get slaughtered, I can't see how the upgrades will make a difference, and I'll be dead before I can get 7 labs anyway)?
well the back up to enforcers is subverter. If he has a lot of hoshikos then of course he is going to demobot you, you need to disable hoshikos first and then they will die fast to enforcers + damage, then you can work on carriers. But if he is smart he will switch to bombers, in which case you are screwed. That's why most effective fleets now a days are 50% carrier.
I agree night, anti carrier tactics fail...hardcore.
All I gotta say is:
LAUNCH FIGHTERS.
How do you think a mixed fleet of flak and skirmishers would do? Just interested, I have no idea who's favour it would work out for.
Carrier hull decreased by 40%.
Carrier shields decreased by 40%
Carrier anti-matter decreased by 20%.
Carrier supply points increased from 14 to 16.
Carrier special ability: “Strikecraft Restoration Field” (passive, range: 1000)
- effect: friendly strikecraft located inside this field can restore their hull. Any strikecraft not inside a friendly restoration field cannot restore their hull.
- effect: strikecraft construction/deployment cost anti-matter, BOTH squadrons must be inside the "strikecraft restoration field" for the carrier to restore its own anti-matter.
See my "postmortem analsis" thread from about 2 days ago (strategy forum I believe). I tried enforcers plus subs against hoshiko and carrier spam. The subs never got to do jack crap because they died to fighters. The enforcers were, of course, slaughtered.
Perhaps the counter to tec hoshiko and carrier spam is simply not to play vasari against them.
Carriers shouldn't be able to respawn SC in battle. Simple as that.
Does anyone know if light carriers are also subject to the "Reduced Construction Times" penalty capital ships are also subject to?
For those who aren't aware or don't completely know what this is, it doubles the time necessary for a capital ship to build one strike craft when it is in combat (i.e. taking and dishing out damage).
It can also partly explain why capital squadrons replace themselves so slowly: their host often rushes into combat unless specifically ordered to avoid it.
I think most people actively try to beat a carrier group when it jumps into a grav well. To me, that's free experience. Just sit my fleet back and watch as he fails to destroy my defended fleet. Then, as he is too consumed with trying to destroy my lower fleet cap fleet with his carrier and hoshikos, I'm behind his lines destroying his economy. Point is, carriers are both expensive and take up a large fleet capacity. So, go for the efficient route of simply tying up his carrier fleet. When he jumps his carriers away to defend his grav well, follow him and jump your harrassment fleet away.
Now, you are in his own grav well with a fleet that cannot be beaten by his carrier spam. Bring in those torpedo cruisers and lay waste to the system. Point is, if someone spams hoshikos and carriers, he has to draw his hoshikos away from the carriers to use demo bots. So, attack from range and if you have to move use attack-move with a fleet set to move as a team and in tight formation. And if this is entrenchment, build up a starbase and force him to go bombers. Bombers do less dmg against LRFs.
haha, awesome. Star Control II was the greatest game ever made.
No it is not that simple dude.
Curious. I haven't paid much attention to the Entrenchment beta as I only recently just got into Sins.
What changes affect carriers in Entrenchment?
mm. Mines. star bases. they do some nasty things to carriers. if you force him to jump out all his carriers as his lure, plant some mines along the jump arc, fortify, wait for him to come back. if TEC, build starbase as close to edge as possible and detonate if they come back. any way you hack it, build starbases. Vasari can move to edge of well, advent can meteor all the carriers. use to turtle the map. you will need lots of flack to initially push out of the system. If he goes around, run over his worlds while he's away. bring structure killers. If Vasari, build kosturas while turtling, sneak some scouts through, fire, split fleet
If he's really going hardcore on carriers & hoho's, only bring your flacks & ships that can heal them & such.
1. He's overloaded by the tactic, you win.
2. he stops spamming carriers and uses a mixed fleet.
3. It fails horribly, you get owned.
I think the original test is flawed. Without any flak in the mix, you are never going to kill the SC without killing the host carrier which makes the fighters slowly decay. If you had some flak in the mix and lost, you may have a valid argument. Having no SC counter = invalid test.
+1 Karma
Also Agent of Karma, why is my criticism of how light carriers can chill at the edge of the gravity well and jump out as soon as anything tries to counter them "getting tactics out of the game" Wouldn't it force carrier users to be EVEN more tactical? if the range was only 3/4 of a grav well so they have to actually plan how far they need to go without putting themselves in danger?
How are you supposed to actually counter the carrier (with any non-carrier unit) of course if you literally cannot catch them with anything slower than a scout or LF? Carrier actually having to put themselves in DANGER is not using tactics? 3/4 of a grav well STILL GIVES them a lot of range to do their stuff. Just not completely cheesy tactics IMO that is to jump out as soon as some poor cap tries to go after them.
Don't hate the Strike Craft, its fine as it is - HATE THE CARRIER. It is the CARRIER that is uncounterable NOT the Strike Craft. The Carrier is responsible for instantly (15 secs) replacing FOR FREE ANY lost SC. I guess yes, infinite SC is uncounterable.
Wait. Light frigates aren't a hard counter to carriers. They're a soft counter. They attack the Antimatter that carriers need to function, where if carriers actually CARED about antimatter they'd be really sore to have lost it.
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