Id like to stop and give a moment to the victims of the horrendous fires we are facing at the moment in victoria and melbourne, and the families who have lost everything but the clothes on their back, and to those who have also lost family members.
Arsonists would have to be the cruelest and sickest criminals of all and I know that they WILL BE CAUGHT.
Lets hope the fires become undercontrol soon.
And I want to give a mighty thanks to the men behind the scenes, the firefighters, who voluneer their time and efforts tirelessly...
Capital punishment is just allowing government to be reduced to the level of the criminals. Government capital punishment is still murder, the person doing it is still a murderer - it is not lessened just because it is sanctioned and deemed legal by a government - look at the mess they do to things as it is without letting them play God.The innocent family of the murderer also suffer through no fault of their own. Vengeance is meant to be the lowest raison d'etre for punishment, protection of society from the criminals is the number one reason for punishment then rehabilitation of the criminal and restitution comes next. Prisons should follow these guidelines and not end up being universities to teach bigger, better and more successful crimes in a vacation chalet type environment full of mod cons. Work should be the pivotal activity to at least pay back something meaningful and beneficial to society instead of merely surviving in a shallow purposeless way.
So here is the new equation
Claiming 300 lives ~ 300x70 years = 21000 years = 14 years of imprisonment ?
Having a soft-corner towards them will only add to their might.
It was said ealier by our ancestors that.. don't hate the devils, but hate the evils.
With the passage of time, it doesn't remain true now..
The truth is Kill the devils to destroy the evils.
I'll help support the victims...but I'll be damned if I'll allow my taxes to support the killer/s in prison.
regardless of how ever a person wants to justify it, the death penalty is wrong. NO person has the right to take another persons life. To do so reduces us to the same level as the original criminal. While i can understand the feelings of those people who have had their loved ones taken from them and the anger that they would feel.... two wrongs do NOT make a right. Jail them for life. I know i will probably cop a lot of flak for my views but i stand by them.
so jafo, you would rather your taxes support more killing???
Wouldn't cost much....one locked room and a match.....bloody perfect cure for that arson urge/curiosity/infatuation.
Put in perspective....population for population.....this is Australia's 9/11.
The only arguable difference is the lack of planes.
Me, too would support and thats not killing... thats justice and we would support justice...
Not sure how many times the world have to witness 9/11..
That's where compassion and social conscience is needed....not with any arsehole who caused so much misery.
The same logic would say that no person has the right to imprison another person.
Murder is murder, and whomever condems a man to death, is also a murderer, you can word it however you like, and try and gloss it over, but it is STILL.. Murder.. and 2 wrongs don't make a right etc etc.. it's barbaric.
Nobody has the right to play God.. except God [or whomever is in charge up there] himself.
Murderer's belong in prison where they can suffer, and think about what they've done, they'll cop more suffering in prison, than in a quick death.
killing a person who has taken another persons life is not justice it's revenge. I will never support the death penalty as it makes us no better than the perpetrator of the crime in the first place. There has to be an overhaul of the justice system where to get a life sentence means life, not 20 years, not 30 years but life. You get sentenced to life then you die in jail.
at least if these people are jailed they cannot commit anymore crimes against the innocent. justice at the point of a gun might have worked in the 19th century but it has no place in the 21st century.
someone made a point before about the suffering of the family of the person being put to death and i think they make a good point. Why should an innocent family be made to suffer along with the victims family, they didn't do anything wrong.
There are always going to be people out there who get their kicks by causing pain and suffering upon others. The death penalty won't stop this.
Pretty definite way of preventing them from re-offending though....
Excising a cancer isn't 'revenge'....it's 'treatment'.
The thing about capital punishment is if it dissuades just ONE person from a similar crime then it has worked as a deterrent.
The victims of crime ALWAYS have a greater right to life than those who will deny them.
I was going to agree earlier when the electricity went out here.
Right on, Jafo. How can it be considered moral or ethical to ask the families of those killed to pay taxes to keep that scum alive?
And, Lantec...that is not the same logic at all.
Those creatures are intentional mass murderers. Same logic as Hamas/Hizbullah/Al-Qaida...and deserving of the same treatment.
I thought real Doctor's took an oath to preserve life, no matter what.
Everybody should just agree to disagree, this subject.. well nobody wins, it will just go around in circles, nobody is going to change anybody else's mind on the death penalty.. I'll never support it, and that's that.... even though mankind is a vile and treacherous race.
with all due respect jafo, There is no comparison, Excising cancer is treatment for a disease in the hope of saving life. Maybe the people commiting the crimes have a disease to. How many people with mental disorders have been put to death?. Does a person with a disease deserve to die? NO. So someone with a genuine mental disorder who commits a horrible crime because they don't know what they are doing, do they deserve to die? NO. they need treatment. I am not trying to take anything away from those who are so horribly affected by violent crime, they deserve justice. Putting a person to death is NOT justice. It's murder, whether it be sanctioned by the state or not. Put yourself in the shoes of someone with a child who has a undiagnosed mental disorder and they commit a terrible crime and while in jail awaiting trial he/she is diagnosed with the disease and really didn't know or understand what they were doing. Would you approve of them being put to death? I don't think so. Would you want them to get whatever treatment they needed to make them well again. And if this treatment would mean they would lead a normal life with no repeat criminal behaviour would you support that? I think you would.
Yes there are horrible people out there who are perfectly sane who commit horrible crimes and those people need to be locked away for ever. But on the same foot there has to be a limit to the extremes we will go to for justice to be served. We DO NOT have the right to end anyones life but we do have the right to put these people in a place where they can never commit a crime again. While jail is not perfect, we as human beings are not perfect but it's the best we can do at this time. To lower ourselves to this eye for an eye stupidity only makes us more barbaric.
Nimbin, me old mate....we're gonna have to listen to Tailsgirl re debates over Capital Punishment....but I'm sure some 'clever' brief would argue the perps of 9/11 were 'mentally ill' and thus innocent. I actually don't consider 'diminished responsibility' as grounds for any form of leniency at all.
I'm sure Julien Knight was/is mentally screwed too....but his victims don't care...they are just as dead either way.
Too much 'gosh and gee' and teeth-sucking is done over those poor deranged/misguided rapists/killers/etc and no-one gives a toss about victim impact.
Thing 'dead'....then keep thinking 'dead'....for a real long time. That's what the victims have as life-experience.
Constant and repeated buggering by fellow inmates of the penal system may be 'cute' but many will argue it is better than dead.
Punishment is not fair and equitable.
It never will be....even with bleeding hearts crying for Law Reform.
Just like Alice's Restaurant.....
"and Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossypictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and hesat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at thetwenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrowsand a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circlesand arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,'cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of Americanblind justice,...."
In Victoria, arson carries a jail term of two to 15 years, and 25 years if there's loss of life.
I was trying to point out that if we assume we have no right to exeecute someone, where then do we get the right to incarcerate them? Each plays "God" so to speak.
Actually Doc, I fully support capital punishment. I believe it's no different from defending yourself or your family. As far as I'm concerned that's an inaleinable right. For me it's not the punishment...it's eliminating any chance of a repeat or escape, eliminating the negative influence the person may have on others (like rehabilitatable prisoners) and removing any possibility of procreation and removing them from the public awareness. So many have fan clubs, get married and write books from prison it's pathetic.
Doesn't mean I think ALL murderers should be executed......many murders are spontaneous acts of rage and life in prison is a suitable punishment. Someone like Jeffery Dahmer requires extermination. How "right" is it to put someone arrested for drug possesion or car theft into the same living space as Dahmer or someone like him?
You want to talk senseless tragedy?.. one word.. ---> Hiroshima.
You thought incorrectly: A Physician's Oath has no such proviso in it.
Secondly, those scum are not my patients, nor does any physician-patient relationship exist.
They are criminals deserving punishment. In this case, execution.
That's just your opinion.. as already stated, it's a pointless debate.. nobody is going to change the folks' minds who are not into killing, to come around to your way of thinking, and vice versa.
Refresher course --> Hippocratic Oath
It does mention to never 'intenionally' harm anyone.
Unless it's different here.
The claimed 'justification' was the prompt/subsequent ending of hostilities aka WW2.
Meanwhile the English did their 'experimentation' with Nuclear weapons on Australian soil....whilst the French preferred to just dirty up the Pacific....well away from THEIR homeland.
Whether it's Hiroshima, Marilinga or the Bikini Attol ....none of it was REALLY necessary.
I know Jafo.. all of that violence was senseless.. we should be moving forwards.. instead of going back to Barbaric times, but each to his/her opinion.
If it should turn out to be islam terrorists who did this, it's nothing but calculated pure evil made in the name of Allah. Then it's nothing but pure hate agains democracy and has little to do with mental disorder.
If it's "only" arsonists, I truly doubt this was made by only one insane person. Then it's a planned action as well by a group of people and should therefore be considered to be the same act as a terrorist attack against a society and civilians. Hitler was also insane but I doubt that anyone would think that putting him behind bars and give him treatment for mental disorder would have been successful and a fair punishment.
This is a great tragedy for the Australians and I sincerely hope that they catch those whoever caused this. Therefore, I totally agree with you - "The victims of crime ALWAYS have a greater right to life than those who will deny them."
"Kingslake, Australia (CNN) Two men were arrested Thursday in connection with the wildfires that have swept through southeastern Australia killing as many as 300 people. Victoria State Police told CNN the two suspects, who had been taken into custody and were "assisting" police earlier, had been behaving suspiciously in or near Marysville, a small village where roughly 100 people have died in the fires. It was not immediately clear what the behavior was or what charges the men may face. Firefighters have battled blazes since Saturday including several new fires that broke out Tuesday night and which officials says almost certainly were the result of arson.John Brumby, the premier of the hard-hit state of Victoria, said many of 20 fires burning Wednesday were suspected to have been started by arsonists, an act described earlier as mass-murder. There seems little doubt these were deliberately lit - a number of them last night - Brumby said on national television."
Nobody has right to torment God's creatures.. Why would u torment criminals by putting them in jail.
Why would you eat meat. Why would you eat plants and prey mosquitoes.
Since God is not here to make the law, people will have to frame some dos and donts and punishments. I see no reasons on why punishments should not be harsh on criminals. After all, they are theatening civilisations. In past few years 4 of worlds large forests have been destroyed. What if we had no jungles in future..
Its not easy to check all this but its the time now the whole world will have to think and unite to abolish terrorism. At the same time we will have to make people in those areas to understand that its necessary..
We have progressed this so far and let us protect our progress. Maya, Inca, Mohanjodro ... there were so many human civilisations destroyed. No one knows why?
Please dont associate terrorism with Islam.
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