The thinking behind uses of the starbase are as follows:
Vasari bases are for area defense and economic boostage and importantly can be used as offensive weapons - jumping in an escort fleet to guard the starbase as it is constructed at the edge of the well, then leisurely strolling along and crushing everything in its path (and with frontal shields, that includes other starbases).
TEC Argonevs are for point defense and establishing forward bases. They can't move so their use in offense is approximately zero (not necessarily a bad thing as they have other strategic uses).
Advent Transcencias are for (slightly larger) point defense and culture; they're a bit better at dominating no-man's-land areas like suns and roids than Argonevs but dont have as much straight-up military or industrial application.
On paper these dynamics work great, but in practice they have an unintended side effect: because Vasari bases can move to respond to a threat from any direction, they are much more effective for defense and destroying enemy fleets. TEC and Advent are forced to build their bases in as annoying a spot as possible, then buy offplanet government upgrades and spread other defenses all over. The enemy fleet jumps in, toasts everything but the base, then attacks the base on its own sweet time.
In other words, the mobility of the Vasari base means the Vasari bases are massively superior to their analogs. This can be balanced by
a) Giving the stationary bases massively extended range (not a good option because range any further than it currently is would make the base devastatingly OP).
Giving the bases engines. They should not be as fast as the Vasari base - in fact moving less than half that speed would still serve the purpose. This simply gives the player the flexibility to move the base to the place it can be most strategically effective while still being forced to think because it takes awhile to drag the base over there.
The designers are reasonably concerned that giving Argonevs and Transcencias mobility would give them the capacity to function as offensive weapons. But considering the ponderously slow speed of those bases, their application in an enemy well would be very limited. If this is still a concern, it shouldn't be difficult to add a stipulation that Argonevs and Transcencias cannot be built in grav wells controlled by enemies.
Players should be able to build a starbase, upgrade it up the wazoo, and have a solid confidence that the well it occupies is safe from any but very concerted attacks. Vasari players can do this. TEC and Advent players can't. Giving those players very slow engines would fix this.
PS. Love the Beta 2 changes ... weapon banks and mine balances make me happy. : )
The egg is a fine ship, but in no way is it a huge advantage. Some say the advent mothership is the best - it is certainly a better colonizer. Some say the TEC Dreadnaught is the best. I play vasari, but for an opening colonizer ship, I'd much rather have the advent mothership. In fact, out of all the vasari cap ships, I'd rather open with something else besides the egg, but I rarely do because a colonizer is important in the early game. ...when I think about it it sounds like a huge advantage. Vasari don't get a torpedo cruiser. Doesn't a torpedo cruiser sound like a huge advantage? Vasari can also use their sw as a gate and jump their fleet past all your sb anyway.
The egg is a fine ship, but in no way is it a huge advantage. Some say the advent mothership is the best - it is certainly a better colonizer. Some say the TEC Dreadnaught is the best. I play vasari, but for an opening colonizer ship, I'd much rather have the advent mothership. In fact, out of all the vasari cap ships, I'd rather open with something else besides the egg, but I rarely do because a colonizer is important in the early game.
Vasari don't get a torpedo cruiser. Doesn't a torpedo cruiser sound like a huge advantage?
Come on - they get a phase stabilizer node. That's their unique tech. It totally fits in with their entire theme. Advent get evangelism nodes on their starbase, TEC gets repair docs, factories, etc. What's the big deal? Vasari already have phase stabilizers anyway. The fact that you can build them on a starbase adds nothing new except that vasari can now have a phase stabilizer in an asteroid field or worm hole or something. Similary, TEC can have factories, repair docs, etc. in such areas, and Advent can have propaganda centers.
Karma do you play this game online?Most everyone I play with agrees the egg is op at killing cap ships.It also has a devastating level6 planet killing/cred stealing ability. I have had my cap ships killed faster then I could fly by. There is not enuf time for your cap to turn around and jump out before it dies even at the edge of the well. The progen is not so great when it dies in 5-15 seconds.
Torpedo cruisers are a small advantage. You can build a vasari sb at the edge of the well and upgrade it then with your fleet+sb attack the defending sb. I dunno bout anyone else but that beats a torp cruiser. You can accomplish the same goal with air supiriority anyway.
Ok notice I said sw. The kosture turns the planet you shoot it at into a node. So you could fire it at ones hw and send in whatever fleet you want to my understanding. You dont have to fight any defenses. I am not against the ones on the sb.
I am all for unique abilities and such. The thing is they still have to be somewhat balanced. How do you defeat someone who can bypass all defense and warp into anyworld at anytime when you can do nothing of the like?The nocalith is probably the closest counter to the kostura but you have to have multiple cannons and even if you kill a world he can recolonize it whereas he jumps in and takes over urs and sets up base behind your lines.The advent sw is almost worthless in my opinion compared to the other 2. There is no counter to the egg that I am aware of. Egg+fleet=dead cap. The only way i know of is to leave your cap behind or outnumber him 2-1 in firepower and kill it before it reaches you.The fact that the sb has a node on it already plays to vasaris strength. The movement is just a bonus. The node is equal to the culture and frig factory upgrades imo.
It seems that what you are really arguing for is a better phase jump inhibitor, not a moving sb. With an improved pji, it doesn't matter which phase lane your sb is covering - the enemy ships still cannot jump further into your system until they take it out. And that pji might just be sitting next to your unmoving tec or advent sb.
Also, come on. This is a strategy game about hard choices. At some point you may just have to consider "sucking it up" and scrapping your old sb so as to build a new one covering the phase lane you wish you had covered in the first place. Another option would be to try to plan ahead and realize that if you build your sb at one particular phase lane right now, will you wish you had built it at another one later? This is what tradeoffs and strategy are supposed to be about.
yes.
Most everyone agrees to lots of things that are wrong. Most people just have a herd mentality and believe what everyone else believes. The zeitgeist changes, and everyone changes their opinions along with it, without really thinking about or examining the issues for themselves.
I love how times change. The egg used to be considered an inferior ship, and no one ever built it. Now you say everyone agrees its the best. In 6 months it will be something else.
First off, as you note it is level 6. Second off, is the ability any more devastating than, say, Marza level 6 Raze Planet?
You're crazy. As they are right now, torp cruisers own SB's. 5 of them will obliterate a fully-upraded SB in no time. Torp cruisers are also much cheaper than SB's.
Please stop with the overactive hyperbole - it's ridiculous. I'll meet you online anytime you want. You take the space egg, I'll take another cap, we will see who wins.
To the whole Phase travel thing with the vasari:
With the antarok marauder they always had the ability to bypass defended systems.
At level 6 it can be phase a node for 30 seconds or so. long enough to jump a fleet from an existing node to the temporary one. Incidentaly, a level 6 marauder will also rush through a system, and is likely to do it without getting seriously damaged.
So having that ability on a starbase is nothing new. Actualy getting the base up will be diffucult enough, especialy since the other factions can lolwut nuke a newborn eyeballwithtreestuckin in seconds flat.
The feature is more that of an frontline rally point so you throw fresh ships at your op at a faster rate.
TEC ot Advent are basicly forced to build shipyards along the way to get reinforcements in a timely manner.
Capital balance: Ah well. Egg+fleet.
You can say the same about the Radiance. Its Antimatter burn will disable your beloved nano disassembler forever. At level six it will melt your ship, and thx to malice, half of your fleet might melt alongside it. Advent can send your egg to sleep too, seperate it from its flock...
The Marza can eradicate whole fleets of ships with a single missile barrage, which is nasty considering the fact that the thing also has awesome firepower in its weapons and the rad bomb. not to mention being tec, which means heaps of armor, hull repair and flocks of hoshikos demo botting everything you hold dear. Magnetize does wonders in disablig abilitys...
And the icing: vasari are missing a decent field repair too.
Theres always something imbalanced in certain situations, but the big picture is kinda right.
Why not give TEC/Advent starbases an upgrade that will give them the option to move, but the speed should be half that of the Vasari starbase, plus the Advent/TEC starbases should have all their abilities/shields/weapons disabled when moving.
Why all the stubborness with moving starbases? They're starbases. They're not super-capitals. The Vasari one moves because they have no anti-structure ships. The TEC and Advent do. If you make all Starbases move, that's not balance because you aren't looking at the big picture, you're looking only at the starbases. If you're going to scream bloody murder about balance, at least consider everything? Imagine a moving TEC base with the self-destruct. Jump into enemy well, pop the starbase right on the edge, it'll be complete before the enemy fleet can move in to destroy it. Quickly upgrade it and self destruct. Boom, there goes enemy fleet and they can't do a damn thing about it. That's not balance, folks.
The Vasari one moves but its super-powers are defensive in nature (damage reduction, repair). It cannot be cheaply used to knock out an enemy fleet. The TEC and Advent ones (if the Advent gets changed to do hull damage with meteors, hopefully..) can be. Having them move will make balance much worse than it is now.
I am testing the game i just happen to be sticking with the Vasari. I am playing on a 6 player map about 65 worlds all fast settings last game i was unable to finish due to a mini dump error every time i loaded the saved game. I have restarted it with all settings the same to see if i can find what causes it.
I was around during the orignal sins beta and i actually got sick of the game after playing so many games only with TEC. But after release i did stick with them 90% of the time as i was most use to them. But i have to admit i am really really fond of the moving starbase since at heart i am a turtler and having a mobile defensive starbase is great for my play style.
So will 20-25 carriers.
I think they will get nerfed but we will see.
To my knowledge you dont pocket 15 creds a second with the raze planet so it is not near as good.
If we have equal fleets and the egg gets in range to use level 2-3 nano your cap will die before mine.-4-6 armor is devastating.
You can say the same about the Radiance. Its Antimatter burn will disable your beloved nano disassembler forever. At level sic it will melt your ship, and thx to malice, half of your fleet might melt alongside it. Advent can sen your egg to sleep too, seperate it from its flock... The Marza can eradicate whole fleets of ships with a single missile barrage, which is nasty considering the fact that the thing also has awesome firepower in its weapons and the rad bomb. not to mention being tec, which means heaps of armor, hull repair and flocks of hoshikos demo botting everything you hold dear. Magnetize does wonders in disablig abilitys...
You can say the same about the Radiance. Its Antimatter burn will disable your beloved nano disassembler forever. At level sic it will melt your ship, and thx to malice, half of your fleet might melt alongside it. Advent can sen your egg to sleep too, seperate it from its flock...
Yes advent have some great cap abilities but for them to be really effective you have to have multiple caps and use them alltogether.The radience only works if the egg has low antimatter. Malice isnt all that great really on its own.The marza has a very powerful ability but it is easily avoided and interrupted. You cannont inturrupt the nano and the only way to avoid it is to jump out of the system. Most likely if you allowed it to be used your dead before you get out of the system.
Hey karma I dont remember seeing you online. How many games have you played in mp?
If you make all Starbases move, that's not balance because you aren't looking at the big picture, you're looking only at the starbases. If you're going to scream bloody murder about balance, at least consider everything? Imagine a moving TEC base with the self-destruct. Jump into enemy well, pop the starbase right on the edge, it'll be complete before the enemy fleet can move in to destroy it. Quickly upgrade it and self destruct. Boom, there goes enemy fleet and they can't do a damn thing about it. That's not balance, folks.
Annatar makes a good point. However most people (I think) want their sb to be able to defend the whole well. Both sides of their planet. Move their base to block a certain jump. The vasari get to do this why not the others? Their should be another way to deal with the self destruct. Im not trying to be stubborn or scream bloody murder its just my opinion.Some of the other balance issues are from my experience in mp(vanilla). Sp games all work out fine. No need to get bent out of shape about it.
It has this nifty little upgrade that's supposed to prevent loss of the planet while the Starbase is alive. Granted I haven't tested it in beta 2 yet if it works now, but bugged or not it's there (and will be fixed if it's bugged).
Sigh, MP is not the end all be all of any game. Even more so in SINS since the majority of players dont play on ICO.
Somebody made an unofficial poll for some of this a while back...
I dunno, maybe 100. I don't play under the Agent of Kharma name. Also, I don't play near as much as I would like because it is damn near impossible to get a decent game online unless you either have tons of friends who all play together regularly, or you are involved in a clan or something.
I frankly am reasonably happy with the phase jump degredation of the current starbases. What I'm concerned about is combat in the local well, not bypassing fleets. Are you arguing for a PJI/PJI improvement in starbases that prevents jumping deeper into an empire?
Excellent point ... that's definitely a hard, interesting choice, and if all three factions had to face it I'd say it's all good. But it's hard to justify taking that agonizing decision from one of the factions and giving their base an almost infinite capacity to cover a well.
Annatar: solid point; I hadn't thought of the danger of self-destruct being used offensively. The way it's currently balanced it only works on a stationary base (though if the base moves really really slowly etc it may only have to be gently rebalanced - see the end of this post).
I'm not sure what you mean by "you're looking only at starbases." And I don't mean to scream bloody murder; I don't think the game is totally broken and not fun to play as the other factions but I do think the balance is a bit out of wack. What I'm proposing is more of a tweak than a fix.
Vasari base, cannot cheaply engage an enemy fleet; this is true. But a Vasari player gets the invaluable guarantee that any fleet that jumps into the base's well WILL have to face down the base if it doesn't hustle out fast (and hustling out means phase jump degredation). TEC and Advent bases can't wait to gun down the enemy fleet but they're forced to sit and wait for the enemy to come to them. Meanwhile, the enemy is bombing the planet to rubble, torching all the orbital structures, dropping mines, and getting torpedoes in position just outside the firing range.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush, but a starbase that can reposition to where it will be useful is worth four bases sitting in the shadow of the battle playing solitaire. : )
And just to reiterate, I support what Dargoon999 said:
The TEC/Advent bases don't need to be able to chase down fleets in the heat of battle or be effective as offensive weapons. They just need to be able to move to confront the most threatening phase lane. They should move very slowly and only with prereq research done, and then they should be very vulnerable when moving. This would not dramatically change the meaning of what each starbase does but it would fix the aggravating way in which stationary bases get obsolete with time.
That all depends on positioning. Ultimately, with the anti-planet-bombardment ability every race's Starbase has to be faced. If they *really* want to go around the whole grav well to the far side of the planet to take out some logistics structures, that just buys you 5 minutes to get your fleet to reinforce... and they still have to fight the starbase if they want the planet. Torpedo cruisers will be getting a nerf, but they are also paper thin now and will die to a few squads of fighters from your starbase hangars and normal hangars. On the flip side, a moving Vasari starbase loses all support from stationary defenses, and it's much easier to destroy a starbase that's not backed up by 35 tactical points worth of stationaries. And then they really can just bomb the planet from the other side because the upgraded starbase that prevents it is rubble with no support.
Err, no, not quite - the enemy is only getting torpedos into position if the enemy is TEC or Advent. If it is the Vasari then they, unlike Tec or Advent, will have to build their own starbase in your system at a very slow speed for both the initial construction and upgrades while under fire from you before they can seriously hurt your starbase unless they bring overwhelming force. You (and others) are most worried about the "who has the upper hand in this TEC/Advent or Vasari? Well, TEC/Advent's Starbases can't defend the system or themselves so well" when the situation to truly fear is the TEC/Advent vs. TEC/Advent because they are the only ones that can truly leverage their offense to take advantage of your problem.
Meanwhile your starbase, if you so chose to equip it, is pounding your attackers with its on-board squadrons while, at the same time, boosting your defensive installations (TEC) or hurling meteors at the enemy (Advent). Sure, it is not doing the same thing as a close combat starbase like the Vasari's, but it is hardly the same as sitting it out.
Regarding location, while there is no doubt whatsoever that the Vasari starbase being able to move to where it is most efficient and it is hence a very nice thing to place directly on a lane where it is expected the next enemy to arrive, there is really no reason to use the same philosophy when choosing a spot for your TEC/Advent Starbases. Depending on what you are facing, hugging the planet might be preferable.
You talk about hard choices, but that goes for all the factions - it is just different hard choices and depends on the enemies you expect to meet. As TEC or Advent, while you may fear opposing torpedo ships taking down your bases at leisure (assuming you don't have squadron superiority and are able to take out the torpedo ships), you have access to your own and inflict the same fear and defensive measures in the eye of that threat on the opposition. As Vasari, you don't. You aren't going to suddenly destroy an enemy Starbase with a swift attack unless you bring truly overwhelming forces. And if a non-Vasari enemy builds a Starbase in your system (which is just as easy as it is for you to do in an opponent's system, i.e. hard if the enemy has any real mobile defense), there's no possibility of sending in the torpedo ships to clear it out before it turns into a monster - you'll have to send out your conventional ships (unlike, say, a TEC defensive base defending a TEC planet and able to hit most or all ships that want to come into bombing range of its quadrons, which could sit there churning out the cruisers if you had so equipped it). And if they should get it up and running, then rather than a close range attack Starbase, they have a fleet support Starbase.
Finally, if one so chooses there's the whole maintain control of the system even if the opposition should wipe out the population possibility. Sure, that's not what anybody wants to happen, but it is an option. The purpose of a defensive Starbase is after all not to win the battle but to to win time to bring in the fleet or to consolidate in the next system.
As such, the Vasari Starbase's greatest advantage over the other factions is probably its strength on the defense against attackers that do not intend to take the system it is in but are just passing through.
I havent either. Im not sure how it works. If it doesnt prevent the loss of population then it still could be a major blow. Especially if its a terran hw and you just lost 280 pop and all the income you use to get. I think advent have the worst here as they dont have a planet shield.
One thing I dont get is if its not such a big deal why people defend it so much to be exclusive to vas. Its sub light manuevering and has nothing to do with phasing.
Maybe so but mp people have feelings too
I really wish I could play some mp games and test more stuff out without it md everytime
I know, I dont mean to hurt their feelings. I hope I didnt with that post. I just dont want the majority of balance issues to looked with just the PvP mp in mind. I was just stating there is a larger community than that.
Vasari case fails since it WILL NOT EVER work as anti-starbase.
You need to build this in enemy terriroy, which is very slow process now (and was slow even before the patch) and almost impossible due to enemy fires.
I think the beggining ideas behind "Entrenchement" and Starbases was to make a "Space Cork" of sorts. Missles ships were suppose to be the "Cork Screw". But you know humans, we just started driving around the cork >
So, a moveable base seems a "computery" way to get around that exploit, but is sure does not feel like a starbase then, or "Entrneching"; I mean, when I play WWII games, I've never been able to start moving my trenches towards the enemy after I dug them (enemy = ) .
The ship damage/antimatter loss seems like a great first step to making Starbases back to the corks they should have been, but I still don't like the moving SB aspect (and don't EVEN get me started on being able to build offensive starbases in enemy wells); tractor beams, gravity wells, area effect Ion beams, energy walls, even mind control (you MUST attack our Starbase), there are so many other creative ways to make a SB an obstical than giving it a giant space dolly and yelling "everyone, hold your breath, get out and PUSH". . .
In response to the OP, it doesnt just work well on paper, it works well in practice. Heres the problem with a mobile base being used in that fashion: its all alone. Anyone who is coming in to seriously attack the grav well will draw that mobile base away from its static defenses and put it at a major disadvantage, picking off the starbase first, then quickly taking out what remains of the basic defenses with ease.
The tec and advent bases, on the other hand, when coupled with a good defensive layout of hangers, repair bays and mines takes precious time to dismantle. Time that the defender can take to move a fleet in to decimate an already weakened and pinned down assailant. Given the lack of a vasari anti sb ship, I would say, and rightly so given thier background as skirmish fleet on the run, the vasari are at the greatest disadvantage in an expansion that is all about digging in. A mongolian horsearcher, in and of himself, wasn't going to do much against the walled cities of china. Though effective on the field, they had to adapt when it came to siege warfare.
In the end, entrenchment by static defenses in any war has always been about buying precious time. The purpose of the maginot line was not to stop the enemy indefinatly, but to so delay and damage him that the defenders had time to move armies in place and meet, in the worst case scenario, a weakened enemy (phase degradation), and at best, an enemy still working on punching through(chewing up everything else before engaging the sb). Learn to build a defensive system well, and reap the rewards. Depend solely on one facet of a races abilty, and one day rue the consequences of a well thought out bait and switch assault.
Given the lack of a vasari anti sb ship, I would say, and rightly so given thier background as skirmish fleet on the run, the vasari are at the greatest disadvantage in an expansion that is all about digging in.
Dijad dont forget they can create a node at any planet bypassing any defensive line.
I stand convinced.
Thank you all for an excellent debate; I think this really helped codify the thinking behind the use of starbases in the context of the rest of the game (if only in my mind; maybe you all already had it figured out). : )
I am now convinced that stationary starbases are, in the context of the fleets/factions they are aligned with, appropriate more or less as they are. Excellent points all around; I salute you all and thank you again for a well-thought out, intelligent, and respectful argument.
i mean, if TEC and Advent had that and vasari didn't the game would be pretty balanced, don't you think? Vasari would have some trouble getting rid of starbases of opposing teams and TEC and Advent would have a surefire way to destroy starbases.
IF ONLY!
But getting a maruader to level 6 is in itself a chore so the reward (phaselaning behind enemy lines) is just.
If nothing else just use the endgame cannon for vasari to move past those defense. After all thats what its there for right?
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