Nowhere close by, Karen. I believe WE make the Justice system respond. WE just have to do it. No one's gonna do it for us.

Yup, we were scammed into thinking that everything with the economy as doing good.  Like all scams and swindles and just down right lies it requires that the rest of us (the marks) believe and accept what we were being told.  It should have never got to the bail out sistuation if the consumer (the marks) paid any attention or were intellignet enough to understand thier own situations. 

Problem with life is everyone always wants the carrot tied to the string that is being dangled in front of us.  Yes, we all have the 'greed virus' within us.  The whole thing would have never worked if it wasn't for US.

How does that saying go as the cartoon character looks into the mirror, "We have meet the enemy and they is US".

 

And to compound the lack of TRUE justice, too many dangerous precedents were established by people with money and smart lawyers who found ways to manipulate the system... and the folly of the system is that once a precedent is set, right or wrong, it becomes becomes law... not a law within the statute books per se, but the decision is used time and time again to have handed down the same or similar judgements.

Am I the only one who can see there is something inherrently wrong with this dangerous practice... that one profoundly bad decision leads to another... and another.  And what's with all this 'plea bargaining' crap?  Do the crime and you do the time... no special deals to soften the sentence, nor the work of the court, prosecutors and defense attorneys.  No wonder there is so much corruption... and the corporoate high flyers think they can get away with anything  and everything... because they can, and do.  All they need is money and a smart mouth lawyer to have rules favourably bent and exceptions made.

This is why lawyers have such a bad reputation, particularly corporate and criminal lawyers... though to me they're one in the same... lower than a snake's belly and pond scum.  While TV shows like Law And Order try to portray prosecutors as hard woking honest people, I do not believe it.  They are no more beyond reproach than any other public figure with power and influence, and certainly not incorruptible.  Sadly, the American way of doing things has infiltrated the legal system here in Oz, elsewhere too, and it's all wrong when rapist and child molesters are able to manipulate things and be back on the streets in no time.  One such rapist got 'special consideration after serving just 5 months in remand and was released... a few hours later he raped again and murdered his victim.  So who wants this kind of joke justice?... because I/we here in Oz certainly don't.

And about time... that somebody in power actually had the balls to prosecute.  However, there is more that needs to be done as there's more parasitic vermin out there stealing from the poor to give to the rich..themselves.

It's all fine and dandy to say these things when we haven't personally been duped by the spiel of a professional conman whose business it is to sell lousy deals by dressing them up to appear attractive and reasonable... like dressing up a sows ear and selling it as a silk purse.  It doesn't matter how smart one is, these conmen only have to sniff half a want and they'll exploit every opportunity and weakness to close the deal... they could sell ice to Eskimos, such is their expertise in exploiting human frailties.  I recall the case of a conman realtor in the 80's who managed to sell acres of swampland to people wanting to build/own their own homes.  He caught several professional people as well as lay people because he had official looking documents and convinced them that the local authority had rezoned the area and it was due for reclaimation/landfill, that it could be built upon within 2 years.  Sure he was caught, tried and convicted, but not before he had reaped millions and stashed it in an offshore account, and thus was a multi millionaire upon his release just 6 yerars later.

So, tell me, what is greedy about the average joe wanting to put a roof over his/her family's head?  And how does it in any way compare with the greed of the realtor, banker and corporate high flyer who lied, cheated and stole from the poor to get where they are today?  It's easy enough to throw a blanket over every working joe who took out a mortgage and blame them for causing the financial collapse, but never to admit/agree that they were conned and sucked into it by experts who'd steal their own mother's purses, take out all the cash and manage to sell them back their own property.  It's this kind of lame reasoning that's a big part of the problem... the conmen realise they have sympathisers/admirers among us and it empowers them with a sense of hero worship and a momentum upon which to build.

It makes me sick to my stomach! Here we have people with the least to lose being taken for everything they've got, including sometimes their lives, and here we are looking for ways to blame them for causing the recession after being ripped off by the expert conmen who actually caused it.

And what's with all this 'plea bargaining' crap? Do the crime and you do the time... no special deals to soften the sentence, nor the work of the court, prosecutors and defense attorneys. No wonder there is so much corruption... and the corporoate high flyers think they can get away with anything and everything... because they can, and do. All they need is money and a smart mouth lawyer to have rules favourably bent and exceptions made.

It's simple. Weak cases, lazy prosecutors, overworked system, bribes.... and NO OVERSIGHT. If they knew someone was waiting outside, they might prefer jail time.

 It's all fine and dandy to say these things when we haven't personally been duped by the spiel of a professional conman whose business it is to sell lousy deals by dressing them up to appear attractive and reasonable... like dressing up a sows ear and selling it as a silk purse. It doesn't matter how smart one is, these conmen only have to sniff half a want and they'll exploit every opportunity and weakness to close the deal... they could sell ice to Eskimos, such is their expertise in exploiting human frailties. 

This is the truth. The smarter the person is, or the more desparate for some status, the more vulnerable. People should learn about the Psychology of Gullibility (NPR.org..."Health of the Nation" about two weeks ago).

So, tell me, what is greedy about the average joe wanting to put a roof over his/her family's head? And how does it in any way compare with the greed of the realtor, banker and corporate high flyer who lied, cheated and stole from the poor to get where they are today? It's easy enough to throw a blanket over every working joe who took out a mortgage and blame them for causing the financial collapse, but never to admit/agree that they were conned and sucked into it by experts who'd steal their own mother's purses, take out all the cash and manage to sell them back their own property.

Well, if one is talking a simple home, then no, I couldn't find it in my heart to condemn. If it's a fellow who earns say $30 K per year with 2 kids, and wants a $500 K home....well, how could he have thought he could afford that? I'm not condemning him, but whoa...how the heck did he think he could swing that? Anyway...your point is understood and is understandable and acceptable with a proviso of 'reasonability'. I can't call him geedy...foolish, yes...but not greedy.

It makes me sick to my stomach! Here we have people with the least to lose being taken for everything they've got, including sometimes their lives, and here we are looking for ways to blame them for causing the recession after being ripped of by the expert conmen who actually caused it.

I, like you, feel that the full weight of punitive action should fall on the perpetrator with clear mens rhea (evil intent). I also don't think the other should be rewarded for his gullibility but rather reimbursed and warned that "Christmas comes only once a year" and that "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is." After that, he has no claims.

 

Socialism, big govt has never worked, capitalism has.. just breaks down when human greed is introduced, nothing wrong with the system, just the people running it.

Starkers.. you don't watch O' Reilly i bet do ya?

 

Doc.. that blue font doesnt become u... bit.. 'in yer face'

Starkers, all your points are well thought out and true. 

My point though is that each of us knows what is within our means (our income)  and our ability to pay.  The folks caught up in all this could have provided for thier family (roof over the heads, food, clothing and such) and not have fallen prey to the conmen. 

Folks were being told for instance that they could qualify for a higher mortgage then was realistic, the carrot.  Hey get this style of loan that has an adjustable rate, very low to begin with.  You can handle it, then when the rate goes up, well you will be earning more in income because the economy is doing so good.

I don't consider myself any smarter then the next person, but maybe I do think things through longer before making a decision.

As far as being duped, we all have at some point in our life.  Most of us though do learn from those mistakes.  Happens everytime we go anywhere to buy a product or service.  We usually come home with nothing like what we went to get.  Buying  an automobile for instances. 

Bottom line, yes the folks that are guility of duping the public need to be punished.  The folks that brought into it need to hopefully become a wiser and more intelligent consumer.

 

 

O'Reilly....as in Bill O'Reilly?  The entertainer posing as a journalist?   If that IS who you mean, and that is where you get your news, I hope you're balancing that out with a healthy dose of Keith Obermann.  (HINT: They're both hacks...paid to feed the people what they want to hear, preaching to the choir.)

 

But capitalism is all ABOUT greed!  Without greed, one does not HAVE capitalism, they have socialism!  Capitalism says create wealth for yourself, as much as you can, as much as the free markets will allow; you have no responsibility to anyone but yourself (and those you choose to care for, but that's your own business).  In the meantime, in order to create that wealth, one must advertise and show as many "might be customers" what they're life would be like if they had your precious product, and it's not the businessman's concern whether the might-be customer can afford it or not.  So the might-be customer looks around and sees that his coworkers have that fine product, and his neighbors have that fine product, and...well there's the people on the TV, who have EVERYTHING and they're working the same kind of job he is (but it's fiction--example, and I"m showing my age here, why does Al Bundy who works as a shoe salesman live in a fairly upscale home?)  

I know I'm sounding hysterical again.  I'm still grieving for the diabetic guy I typed a report on yesterday whose home is in foreclosure, so he tried to kill himself, so he's now involuntarily committed to the hospital.  He didn't buy his insulin, because he was trying to come up with his mortgage payment...he had half of the payment, but not enough to stop the foreclosure process; in a last ditch attempt to try to make that half payment grow into a full payment, he gambled it all in Atlantic City, and of course lost it all, so, he tried to kill himself.  Yes, that was very stupid of him, but I so totally understand his desperation to try anything to prevent his world from crashing out from under him like that.  Socialism might not be the answer for "our country" but it would be the answer for that man--he wouldn't have been without his medicine, which might have led to clearer thinking about the foreclosure.

I have this one simple question for you vStyler.  How would YOU propose to take the greed out of capitalism?  Obviously there is some pretty severe inequity, not just in individual earning abilities, but where this country puts it's loyalty and on what it places value on.  A quarterback on a professional football team makes 18 million dollars, and an average salary for an elementary school teacher is $48,000.  And the quarterback can walk into a restaurant, order the most expensive thing on the menu and get it comped, while the school teacher will have to pay full price and is expected to tip, too.  If everybody just had a job to do and were paid a livable wage, and had what they needed -- and they looked around and saw that everybody else had the same -- there would be a lot less hate in the world, and a lot less crime.  Capitalism exploits the human condition towards covetousness.  From the way I see it, it's not making the world a better place to live.

That's not necessarily true.  Certainly some people will always need to be proded, but there are others who are ambitious simply because it's their nature to be doing something.  I don't get paid for skinning, but I spend a considerable amount of time on it.  That's not sloth.  When I worked for the local hospital, I volunteered to develop the power point presentation for the rest of my coworkers on how to use their expander more efficiently--in fact, I did so much volunteering on upgrading what we had and improving the efficiency of the department that the supervision started having nightmares of me taking her job.  I didn't do it to make money, or to rise in the organization.  I did it because we were part of a team, and making the team better meant better patient care.

Killing capitalism will only kill the ambition of the people who don't necessarily enjoy what they're doing in the first place, and maybe those people should take a little time off and discover what it is they WOULD like to do, since they're going to be doing it a third of their lifetime.  The problem is we have people doing jobs simply for the money (ambition will lead a person down some ugly streets sometimes), rather than going about their life's work.

That makes it all the worse, because that means you've bought into the dream the fat cats have spun for you that some day you can achieve what they have, too, which is what they tell you to get you to vote in favor of the policies that benefit them.  Where is YOUR bail out money, John?

That would describe about 95% of the people in the country. Socialism is slowly killing capitalism in this country right now. People that are getting government handouts have a better standard of living than I do. I pay my taxes so they can afford a better house than I can. I could quit my job today and get handouts too, but I believe that it's wrong to live off of someone elses hard earned money.

OK...so if everyone does what they WANT to do, who is going to do the jobs that people DONT want to do? Under socialism, what's the incentive to do it?

People do achieve that. It happens all the time.

Capitalism is greed. Not necessarily.

Socialism is good. Not necessarily. It depends...for whom and when.

Whether we like it or not there is a social contract that binds humanity. We do not abandon the ill and infirmed, we care for widows, orphans and handicapped. Would that all did it willingly. Because there are those who would not do those things voluntarily laws are put in place to insure compliance.

Incentive is not limited to capitalist systems. Nor is it missing from socialist ones. To believe otherwise is to become a knee jerk thinker: Not all motivations are financial. If they were, I would have quit Medicine long ago, people would not become nurses and teachers, fathers and mothers and spiritual leaders. Not all business leaders are greedy. Unhealthy greed is a disease of the spirit. It should not be allowed to exist unchecked. Oversight of all human activity is necessary because people are by nature imperfect.

The world at present is unbalanced in the extreme. The US and western countries consume and pllute far more than others except China (pollution) while the third world countries  remain in poverty, ignorance and illness. This, among other causes is the seed of violence as that is what has been perpetrated indeed upon them. The world has enough resources, but population must be limited.

A more balanced, less polluting, healthier and smarter world must come about. It cannot occur by violence of any form, physical, mental or economic.

Fear causes greed, hatred and violence. There are many forms of fear, but the fear of hunger, illness and vulnerability causes much, if not all of the violence we see.

We must ensure everyone's right to decent food, clothing, protection from the elements, education and healthcare if you wish peace and life without the fear of being murdered for a crust of bread.

Will there be madmen? Certainly. Will there be greed and injustice? Certainly. But, with those basic needs supplied, there will be much less. There will be fewer angry people and far less rage.

And, in order to achieve these things, "systems" take second place to people. Capitalism doesn't work in emerging countries and in truth a healthy balance of both systems is needed. The oscillations of the pendulum swings in the economy will dampen out and a self sustaining, dynamic equilibrium will eventually come about. If we limit ourselves.

Neither economic model works in its purest form because they are either too much one way or the other.  What is needed is a balance between the two, leaning neither too much one way or the other.

The thing wrong with pure Capitalism is that it is too concerned with profit, money and more money, that it neglects (other than low paid jobs) to support the community that supports it with its time, effort and expertise.  On the other hand, we have Socialism which, in its purest form, leans too far the other way and stifles business incentive, thus production, employment and the economy in general. 

The thing is, Socialism and Capitalism can co-exist, and it does!  For example, here in Australia we have a model based on the British system, with a government that leans towards Socialism and helps its people, yet supports capitalist ventures, etc... and it works quite well.  Is it perfect?  Hell no, and people will fall through the cracks, but for the most part, businesses can thrive while the average bloke is looked after by government, if and when required. 

Nothing wrong with that, but for some reason Americans believe that accepting government welfare payments is taking 'other peoples' money:ie, taxes.  Really?  So, what, they never paid any taxes themselves... and still continue to in the form of sales and fuel taxes, etc, etc???  Bloody stupid if you ask me!  The whole idea of taxes in the first place is to enable government to provide various services to those they govern... those that elected them to office.  So in effect, given that everyone (in one way or another) is a taxpayer, that money IS yours as much as anyone elses. 

The problem there is that the US government for far too long has spent gazillions of taxpayers money on warfare and defense... um, like what friggin' defense?  Apart from Pearl Harbor and a sporadic Japanese plane or two during WWII, the US has not been attacked... and nobody in the World has big enough balls to launch an attack on the US.  So why the need, then, to spend trillions of dollars annually on defense?  Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the US has assumed the role of the World's policemen and spends taxpayers money on sticking its nose into others' domestic affairs.  Yes, YOUR tax dollars... and you're telling me that you'd rather the US gov't spent your money on killing people than help you when the arse is falling out of your pants and there's NO food in the larder?  Come on, that's insane!

Worse still, instead of apportioning the money to those who need it most, the US Government is spending trillions bailing out banks and auto makers, both of whom have misappropriated the funds by taking out expensive 'thank you' ads, and paying huge bonuses to already wealthy bankers.  Yup, that's your Capitalist model for you!  The rich continue to get richer while the poor remain homeless, starving and even dying.  Yes, dying... because impoverished societies become violent and people become so desperate in the struggle to survive they start killing each other.

Yup, that's your pure Capitalist economic model for ya!  The greater proportion of wealth and resources remain in the hands of very few, while the masses are left to fight over what little remains to be had.  You know, the Australian Government initiated a 'stimulus package as well, but instead of giving it to the large corporations and banks, the government here gave pensioners and low income families, etc a cash payment of around $1400 to stimulate the ecomomy through higher spending, thus stimulating jobs, manufacturing and industries in general.  And you know what else?  It was so successful that Prime Minister Rudd is in favour of implementing another stimulus package along those lines around March.  So yeah, we have a Socialist government, while helping the most disadvantaged, still working to stimulate Capitalism as well.

Also, two of the most powerful capitalists in the World, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, have strong Socialist values while still operating in a Capitalist world.  Both men see poverty and need and try to address it with huge charitable donations.  Now that is Capitalism and Socialism working hand in hand... and more people in the US need to see that it can and does work well when given the chance.  They need to get this 'commie bastards' mentality the capitalists have been sprouting for decades out of their heads and start moving towards a more equitable society that WILL look after its own impoverished and disadvantaged people.

Spot on, Karen, spot on.  And you know, it's US Capitalism that makes the US so unpopular overseas, particularly with such organisations as Al Qaeda, because they see Capitalism marching in and taking over, depleting resources and putting little or nothing back, then leaving will all the goods and chattels worth taking. The Arab nations, with all that oil, should be among the wealthiest on Earth, yet most live in abject poverty while their sheiks and other leaders live in luxury under the Capitalist system introduced by the US.

Oh, and for the record, those are not purely my thoughts, but rather they echo the sentiments of people like Osama bin Laden and other Arab people who say they are prepared to die to end US Capitalism.  Makes you think, doesn't it, what else the US can do to counter terrorism, other than spend taxpayer dollars to send soldiers to kill and be killed.  What's that old but very wise saying, prevention is better than the cure!

Yeah, I know, much of what I'm saying will make me unpopular with some around here, but frankly, I don't give a stuff.  If it sows a seed of hope and helps implement change for the better, being unpopular is the least of my concerns

I don't know if you guys 'n' gals would consider this relevant, I know I do.

I have a non-biological daughter who moved out when she was 18,
and went, without my knowledge for two years long,
straight into the buisness-end of the... 'erotic branch'.
After two years she confessed, and now we communicate regularly,
and although I tried, I can't talk her out of it.
According to her, she's an adult now,
and can do what she wants, when and where she wants.

Now, the reason I told you that, is that through her,
I hear a lot about what goes on in the branch.
And one story, that sprang straight to mind when I saw this Thread, is as follows:

A South-American Branch Manager of a large German car manufacturing company,
said company already sending people home in order to save money,
with a shorter working week in discussion,
came to Germany for some meeting, and after that went on to Spain for a couple of days 'holiday'.
Through contacts was looking for some 'company' while he was there.

My daughter turned down the offer, but here's the kicker:
to fly there for a day, that is, fly over in the morning, and back in the evening,
the price offered was 50.000 Euro (64,922 Dollars, I just checked).

Where do you suppose that 50.000 was coming from?

I'm pretty certain it wasn't to come out of his own pocket...

This offer she got, was also supposed to be one of three days,
meaning said Manager wanted a different girl for each of three days.

That would make a grand total of 150.000 Euro (194,767 Dollars).
For that price according to my daughter, he could have had...
well, I won't go any further into that.

So anyway, that chunk of money I'm quite sure would be coming out of an expence account.
Which could be translated to: people are being sent home from work to finance a Managers sex holiday.
And this would then be blamed on the Financial Crisis.......

I'm also quite sure, the incident I've described above, is NOT a one-off thing,
and happens with different 'personell' quite often around the world.

I've always said, the only people that don't have to worry about recessions are Politicians, Bank Managers,
Managers of large international corporations, the Oil people and Brothel owners.
This last one is because, as can be seen, there is ALWAYS enough money for people to 'buy some company'.