While I was running on the treadmill at the gym on Monday, Fox News was on a TV in front of me. While I was rocking out to my Cascada, a headline kept flashing on the bottom of the screen. It said "Is War in Gaza Only Way for Israel to Gain Peace?" Now I could not hear what they were saying, but it got me thinking about this current conflict, and war as a political device. My friend Larry recently posted a thought on Facebook. He was referring to an Op-Ed in the Times entitled "The Confidence War" when he quoted Clausewitz as saying "War is politics by other means; and politics is perception." I think Larry was dead on. This is not a war for resources or even land, as Israel has no intentions of conquering and annexing Gaza. This really is not even about the rocket attacks, which by the way ARE deplorable, and worthy of a response. Maybe not THIS response, but a military response nonetheless. What this is really about is Israel's self perception.Israel perceives itself as a isolated country that is constantly under threat. There is, of course, historical precedent for this view. After many years, this perception has become institutionalized, and is now seen as simple truth by the people of Israel. I would compare it to the fact that when the United States first entered Iraq, the people in charge of the U.S. efforts were influenced by the Vietnam Conflict, as that was their experience. As framed by the current Israeli self-perception this incursion into Gaza makes perfect sense. Israel must maintain the upper hard, and must CONSTANTLY remind it's neighbors that is a viable state with a strong military. It is the Bush Doctrine in action taken to it's extreme. The problem is that everyone in the region already knows this. Israel is proving nothing to nobody... except themselves. While that may be abstractly important to the Israeli people, it is not worth the cost in lives and money that we are seeing now. So, Fox News was almost right with it's headline, it should have read "Is War in Gaza Only Way for Israel to Gain Inner Peace?" because that is what this is truly about.
From Hama's website.
of course......why didn't I think of that?
I guess the next question is ......"do you always believe what the evil, murderous side tells you?"
Yes, they do; why? Because "the evil, murderous side" isn't America or its allies.
That they're not so stupid as to lose what support they currently have while at the same time massively increasing their enemies?
Hm... oddly enough the Germans were so stupid.
And the Sudanese government is so stupid too, and where exactly is the lack of support and the increase in their enemies?
Saddam killed millions and nobody protested.
Sudan kills hundreds of thousands and nobody protests.
But you seem to think that Israel wants to do the same and doesn't do it because it would increase the number of enemies? Those strategies never increase the number of enemies for those who use them. Saddam is still a celebrated hero in the Arab world.
Perhaps you don't understand how the middle east works.
If you are a violent brutal dictator and murder hundreds of thousands, people will love you. That's how it works.
It even works in the west, too.
Ask your average liberal how much time he spent in protests against Saddam in the 80s and 90s and how much time he spent in protests against Israel or Sudan. You will likely find that he spent the most time protesting Israel, might have attended one or two protests against Sudan, but none against Saddam.
The more you murder, the more support you have; among Arabs, among western liberals, and in the UN.
They do. They really do.
Whatever the IDF or the Israeli government says is dismissed as propaganda.
And whatever Hamas say is fact.
That's how the media worked, that's how liberals work.
It seems you do. That is everything the Israeli's say is taken as gospel and can't possibly be wrong. Anything the palestinians say is automatically false (and anyone who dares question anything the Israelis say or do is a crazy liberal who loves Hamas and hates Israel).
Those who are actually able to think for themselves will realise that both sides have good cause to lie - you can see this with the two sides 'statements' on the cease-fire. Israel (as expected, no matter how badly things had gone) declared it's operation a success, with all of it's aims met. Hamas (again, as expected) declared Israel's operation a failure, that failed to meet it's aims.
That is everything the Israeli's say is taken as gospel and can't possibly be wrong.
What Israel says tends to be supported by video evidence. You can also go there and see for yourself. For some reason Israel always needs evidence, because many people tend to disregard anything said by middle-eastern Jews as lies.
I myself found Israelis to be rude, quick-tempered, and extremely chauvinistic. But they didn't lie. Your experience with middle-eastern Jews could well be different.
Tell me, how many middle-eastern Jews do you know personally that you can make such blanket statements about Israel?
Anything the palestinians say is automatically false
Why are you equating Hamas with the "Palestinians"?
You don't even realise that the majority of "Palestinians" also don't believe what Hamas say. (That is, incidentally, why Hamas have to throw people off rooftops to "convince" them.)
Yes, I do not believe what terrorist groups say.
And yes, I do believe what Israel says.
I do not believe that there is a reason to distrust middle-eastern Jews just because they are middle-eastern Jews.
But I do believe that there is a reason to distrust terrorists for the sole reason that they are terrorists.
And I do believe what "Palestinians" say. That's why I posted this article. with two videos of what "Palestinians" have to say about Hamas. I absolutely and without qualification believe it.
Those who are actually able to think for themselves will realise that both sides have good cause to lie
And when you see cause to lie, you see proof for a lie. Is that it? When there is smoke, there must be fire? And perhaps, if enough people repeat it as a fact that middle-eastern Jews lie, it will become accepted fact?
I accept your reason for believing that Israel is lying.
I believe that Hamas lie because they are terrorists, not because they have a reason to lie. An organisation that executes people who disagree with them by throwing them off rooftops is certainly not above lying.
Just watch the three videos and tell me whether you believe them or not. Two are "Palestinian", one is Israeli. Just feel free to explain why you don't believe the Israeli one (perhaps the IDF boobytrapped the Gaza school over the last few days just to shoot the video?) and whether you believe the two "Palestinian" videos.
It really freaks me out that Hamas have so much credibility among western idiots. The Arab world is MUCH MUCH smarter than western liberals. Unbelievable...
You would make a good propagandist for Hamas. I am sure you can brush away all their atrocities in the name of some noble achievement (even tho none exist).
But I do agree with one point you make. They are stupid. They are actually trying to wage a humane and low colateral war, and win over world opinion. Which the first, while noble, is fool hardy, the last is just plain stupid. They will never win over world opinion. So why try?
Besides, the only ones arguing that Israel is committing genocide, are those that are doing it themselves. And while expected, the comparison to Nazis is abhorent and beneath contempt. And could only be done by one so filled with hatred of Jews as to seek their erradication. Why is beyond human and humane understanding.
And while expected, the comparison to Nazis is abhorent and beneath contempt.
I assume the comparison with the Nazis and Hitler is the purest of coincidence and has nothing to do with anti-Semitism (aka reminding Jews of what will happen if they continue behaving like this).
What about "Israel is behaving like Sudan"?
Still doesn't work. Sudan slaughtered 400,000 people and was never attacked by them.
And what about "Israel is like Saddam's Iraq"?
Still doesn't work. Saddam slaughtered millions and was not attacked by them either.
Perhaps we can compare Israel with Hamas?
Both killed hundreds of people.
The difference is that Hamas wasn't attacked by Israel or the PLO but tried to kill Israelis and PLO supporters anyway.
Doesn't really work, does it?
You seem to have missed my point. The people here seem to take everything the Israeli's say as automatically true, and everything the Palestinians say as automatically false. How many jews+palestinians I personally know has no relevance to that.
Oh dear, the Dr's put his foot in it again:
I assume you're saying rightwinger is so filled with hatred of Jews as to seek their erradication?
I'm not (that is, Hamas are palestinians, but not all palestinians are members of Hamas)
I accept your reason for believing that Israel is lying
It's not as though you were the first to do it, and certainly won't be the last, but I'm getting so sick of people taking something I (or others) say, taking it out of context, twisting it's meaning, and somehow using that to say something completely different - it's gotten so bad I even did a minor version of it in my previous post to see if anyone would pick it up and adopt hypocritical outrage. Saying that I see reasons why both Hamas and Israel may want to lie is not the same as saying I think they are both definitely lying. One of them obviously is (since they're both saying pretty much polar opposites). I also think it likely that both of them are to some extent, but as to what I believe, I believe anything said by either side should be taken with a strong pinch of salt.
It really freaks me out that Hamas have so much credibility among western idiots
If I have some spare time I might, but not right now as I don't see it being of great relevance (now if I was saying that all palestinians love Hamas, or that Hamas has never done anything terrible, or that I don't believe anything any Israeli says, it might be relevant. However despite all of your numerous (and often desperate) attempts to pidgeon-hole me as a Hamas supporter, I don't support them). To paraphrase you, it really freaks me out that so many posters here are so narrow minded. The pitiful logic that seems to be used is: 'Not an Israeli supporter? -> Must be a Hamas supporter'
My bible study teacher and friend here, Marv Rosenthal, whom I've mentioned a few times has just written quite a good article on this whole thing giving us much background information putting it all together. He's a well known and respected Christian Jewish Teacher who knows Israel backwards and forwards. He's been bringing groups over to Israel for more than 35 years and has watched many things unfold over the years. He said this:
"If Israel attacked Gaza as she is capable of doing, thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Palestinians would die in the crowded urban areas. And the truth is, the Gaza Palestinians are not totally innocent-in a democratic election, they voted Hamas into power and supported them, knowing fully what their intentions were toward Israel.
Instead Israel has taken an amazing high road. She is making every attempt to spare as many civilians as she possibly can. Those critical of Israel should stop lecturing the anation about collateral damage. Israel attempts, as does the United States, to minimize it more than any other nation even though, in the doing, she endangers her own troops, is forced to extend the length of the conflict, and is castigated by the prostituting entity called the United Nations, along with some Western countries, Muslims everywhere and much of the left wing liberal media. Such attitudes can come from only two sources, first a total ignorance of facts as they really are; and second, wicked and virulent anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, both are alive and well on planet earth."
For the whole article entitled "The Truth Under Seige" go here.
http://www.zionshope.org/link_truth_0901.aspx
No, just pointing to your pacifier and Athlete's tongue.
Just can't bear to admit your mistakes, can you Doc?
Let me repeat it again: "the comparison to Nazis is abhorent and beneath contempt. And could only be done by one so filled with hatred of Jews as to seek their erradication"
Since it was rightwinger and not me who decided to bring up the Nazi's, I'm fascinated to hear how you're going to try and wriggle your way out of this one. Oh that's right, you'll probably do what you normally do when I show up your rather awkward non-logic/mistakes and ignore it.
Hitler was actually the first to bring up Nazis in a perjorative sense, but what does that have to do with the discussion at hand? You were the one that decided to equate the 2. Are you now repudiating your statement? Or are you trying to say you are just now trying to censor what words can and cannot be used?
Since it was rightwinger and not me who decided to bring up the Nazi's
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
I believe Dr Guy is referring to your usage of the word, not somebody else's.
Since I never equated the two, no. I'm not holding my breath on you apologising for your mistake though.
Ultimately, you either have no idea what the word equate means, and/or are an idiot, and/or can't read. Rightwinger effectively said the Israelis were restrained for not imitating the Nazi's and killing everyone. I responded that such an argument shows just how bad Israel really are if their actions need to be compared to those of the Nazi's in order to show restraint. Neither of us is equating the Israelis to the Nazis, and nothing that was said in any way justifies your ludicrous outburst.
No....what I'm saying is that liberals like you are always so concerned about the welfare of people who hate you with endless passion and seek to destroy you and the civilization you enjoy. Why? Simply put, because you're not like them.
Whether or not the sins of the parents are passed down is irrelevent when it comes to Muslims, however, because, as a matter of tradition, they purposely pass down the hatred and intolerance they wallow in, themselves. So...the sins just more or less go with it, because they're never allowed to get passed it. The Israelis children suffer, too, as a result.
Liberals are so good at ignoring the gist of their opponent's point; turning it on its head and spinning it around. They do this mainly as a defense mechanism, such as when their own position is morally and intellectually inferior. And they know it.
It's still more acceptable, is it, to fire rockets, unprovoked, at civilian targets, while your enemies restrict their attacks, mainly, to military and government ones? Yeah; that's Nazi-ish, alright. How barbaric.
Thaaaat's right....fall back to the moderate position now. Had to happen eventually.
Hamas' hate and compulsion for violence drag it down in the gutter. Israel is up on the sidewalk, standing by the buildings. Which is good, because strategically, the high ground is the best position!
No it isn't....not at all. Was Israel using their own as shields? Were they >purposely< targeting civilian areas? No.
Why must you continue to blind yourself to the facts? What's so hard about admitting the truth to yourself? Oh yeah....you're a liberal. 'Nuff said.
As a defender of scripture I had to step in.
The bible teaches no such thing. There is no punishment for the children for their parent's sins.
Every man is going to be held accountable for his OWN sin. The bible is clear on that.
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Deut 24:16
There is a particular scripture in the OT that says that the sins of the fathers is visited on the children for up to four generations.
That simply means that children follow what their fathers do so they inherit, so to speak, the same sins. So, for instance if a father is an alcoholic, he's teaching his children to be alcoholics until one breaks the curse of this particular sin and turns away from it. When that happens his children are taught a different way. From what I understand usually there is a cycle of four generations when this happens.
Careful rightwinger, sarcasm isn't always picked up?
That sums up your entire (non)argument pretty much.
Try telling that to rightwinger.
Casualty numbers still fluctuate:
What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead. "The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.
[...]
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes." The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?" These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."
The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"
These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3660423,00.html
Does anyone know why Israel decided that it must retreat and have all soldies out by the Inaguration? This seems a bit of odd timing. Does anyone have a theory?
If the above-quoted article is correct it could well be that the propaganda machine succeeded in making up enough civilian casualties to make it impossible for Israel to continue without risking world-wide attacks against random Jews (and possibly Christians).
Yes, and that would have been a much better argument to pursue, as opposed to the 'you don't support the killing of children so you're a Hamas supporter', or Doc's bizarre 'you're a despicable anti-semitist because .'. I've never claimed the figures are highly reliable, but they're all that are available since Israel decided to refuse access to journalists (given some of the white phosphorous claims, I can see why!)
Yes, and that would have been a much better argument to pursue, as opposed to the 'you don't support the killing of children so you're a Hamas supporter'. I've never claimed the figures are highly reliable, but they're all that are available since Israel decided to refuse access to journalists (given some of the white phosphorous claims, I can see why!)
I don't know who you are or what the heck you are talking about or why you think that my comment was directed at you.
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