While I was running on the treadmill at the gym on Monday, Fox News was on a TV in front of me. While I was rocking out to my Cascada, a headline kept flashing on the bottom of the screen. It said "Is War in Gaza Only Way for Israel to Gain Peace?" Now I could not hear what they were saying, but it got me thinking about this current conflict, and war as a political device. My friend Larry recently posted a thought on Facebook. He was referring to an Op-Ed in the Times entitled "The Confidence War" when he quoted Clausewitz as saying "War is politics by other means; and politics is perception." I think Larry was dead on. This is not a war for resources or even land, as Israel has no intentions of conquering and annexing Gaza. This really is not even about the rocket attacks, which by the way ARE deplorable, and worthy of a response. Maybe not THIS response, but a military response nonetheless. What this is really about is Israel's self perception.Israel perceives itself as a isolated country that is constantly under threat. There is, of course, historical precedent for this view. After many years, this perception has become institutionalized, and is now seen as simple truth by the people of Israel. I would compare it to the fact that when the United States first entered Iraq, the people in charge of the U.S. efforts were influenced by the Vietnam Conflict, as that was their experience. As framed by the current Israeli self-perception this incursion into Gaza makes perfect sense. Israel must maintain the upper hard, and must CONSTANTLY remind it's neighbors that is a viable state with a strong military. It is the Bush Doctrine in action taken to it's extreme. The problem is that everyone in the region already knows this. Israel is proving nothing to nobody... except themselves. While that may be abstractly important to the Israeli people, it is not worth the cost in lives and money that we are seeing now. So, Fox News was almost right with it's headline, it should have read "Is War in Gaza Only Way for Israel to Gain Inner Peace?" because that is what this is truly about.
Israel is proving nothing to nobody... except themselves.
Excellent point.
The problem is that they cant even prove it to themselves .... not only that ... they dont even learn from their past actions. They launched these kinds of attacks and demolition countless times ... and it has never achieved their stated objective. ... i.e. inner and/or outer peace.
as they say ... you cant keep doing the same thing by the same method and expect a different result.
They have and continue to totally ignore simple facts of life and history. You cant occupy people's lands and expect to have inner and/or outer peace .... Iraq, as you mentioned, is a clear proof of that even though they hated the regime we dismantled.
the way to peace is clear to all and known since time immorial ... no need to even mention it here. we all know it .... but some think they can defy history and proven human nature.
In the Op-Ed article you refered to ... he mentioned that someone in the Israeli military leadership said "The palestenians must be convinced down to their most inner subconcious that they are a defeated people".
In a way, he is right since this is the only way Israel thinks it can achieve its inner/outer peace ...
The problem is ... that will never ever happen ... never in the history of mankind is there such a thing as that which he is asking the palestenians to do. it is a pipe dream ....
peace will be achieved when Israel wakes up from that pipe dream.
I disagree Isreal has to do what they are doing in order to curb the attacks on them. If they take the do nothing attitude.... the rocket attacks continue...
Im all for isreal. If it was you that was getting rocket attacks daily you would want to do somthing right? the way you make it sound you would just sit on your hands and try to "make peace" when attemps time and time again have failed.
Trust me, I am not an Israel hater. I just don't see how what they are doing now will lead to peace. They should have taken a more diplomatic route. Thier current course of action just does not SOLVE anything. That was my point. They are proviong to themselves that they can still kick ass.
I have to agree with watertown. ThinkAload's comments seem to suggest that Israel is reaction to threats and not rocket attacks. As if Israel was doing a pre-emptive strike on a people who are threatning to launch rockets as oppose to one who has been doing it, even with a cease fire in place. Especially when this group of people believe in nothing less that complete annialation of Israel and it's people. The way I see it, Israel waited too long and is not doing enough. I am not all for war first ask questions later, but sometimes enough is enough and action do speak louder thans words more often than not.
One could say this is a pipe dream as well for there will never be peace so long as there are countries, not even next door, who believe Israel should be destroyed. But there can be fear and respect (at least a certain level of it) and while these are not the best options for gaining peace, it's a start. After all, it's not like Israel is dealing with a people who only want peace, not when the total destruction of Israel is the only way to achieve it.
I agree their actions will not actually solve anything, however I do not think they should take the diplomatic route either. Israel is doing what will be more effective, because you can't reason with people who simply hate you. There is no diplomatic solution, at least for now.
There is, of course, historical precedent for this view.
That's one way of putting it.
Here is another way of putting it:
ALL non-Arab ethnic groups are constantly under threat, the Jews are under the least threat now, but ONLY because of Israel's military power.
The people of Sderot and other cities have been living in bunkers for three years. And the world pretends that that is acceptable. The only good Jew is a Jew living in a bunker. The same applies to Bedouins now that Hamas' rockets can reach them, apparently.
Do the people in the region really know it? I doubt it. Hizbullah didn't know between 2000 and 2006. In 2006, all of Lebanon learned the lesson again. Since then the northern front is quiet. It worked.
If the Massalith, the Kurds, the Berbers, the Sudanese Christians, the Somalilanders, the Nubians, the Chaldaeans, the Assyrians, and all the others currently living in the Arab colonial empire each had the power Israel has, they would likewise not be under threat any more.
The way I see it there are two acceptable solutions, and both of them rely on Israel proving her military strength and commitment to use it:
1. Arm all non-Arab groups and let them defend themselves.
2. Get the Arabs to cut it out.
(The other two theoretical solutions are the ones proposed originally by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the PLO: kill everyone on one side.)
But if any of the non-Arab groups, Israel or any of the others, stop showing military strength, the result has too often been a genocide; and I am not talking about a few hundred dead civilians whom nobody would lose any sleep over if there was no way to blame Israel for them.
I am not personally a fan of decolonisation, because I do happen to believe that some cultures are better than others, and therefore agree with the concept of an empire as such; but I think the UN should try decolonisation in North Africa and Syria.
JD they have tried time and time again and all that happens is it gets broke after some time and rockets just keep coming. There is no way you can have a diplimatic solution to something when one group would love nothing better to see Isreal not exist any more.
If they take the do nothing attitude.... the rocket attacks continue...
you see? !!!! that is exactly the point of the article and my response to it.
who said they do nothing? ... the question was and still is .... is war the only option?
it seems that some cant see anything else ... and that is the main problem.....
Wars has never ever resolved land disputes between nations and/or people ... even here in the USA, American-Indians were never at peace with us till they had their own peace treaty with the US Fed. Gov. with all our military and population might we could not stop the violence and resolve the disputes ... only after the treaty with them that we now live together in peace.
why cant some people including Israel realize that is what amazes me ... and many other people in the world.
Saying that there are people who want to destroy Israel is an empty excuse for continuing the cycle of violence ....
once there is a political solution with the palestenian Gov in place now .... all extremists will be marginalized ...
Resolving the conflict, any conflict, always lies with the upper hand not the weaker one ... and that hand is Israel ...
Clinton's plan was a good start .... finalize it while disregarding hamas and all extremists ... once the solution is in place the violence will stop after its reason disppears.
You cannot be diplomatic with someone who will move heaven and earth to kill you even willing to die as a martyr to do so. The only way to deal with them is by brute force. It's the only option. One has to overpower the other. That's a fact. It's not ideal but it is realistic. Look at history. WW1 WW2 etc. It's only when one comes completely on top can there be true peace.
The problem today is the media is calling the shots. Alot in the name of war has changed as a result of Vietnam. War is fought via the media where everything is scruntintzed and played over and over again. Everything has to be even....if they kill 10 guys then the other side can kill 10 guys, but if one kills too many then the world turns on the top dog. Lord help if any civilians get hurt....remember Nagasaki? Hiroshima? It's war. War is not pretty but as long as we have humans cloaked in human flesh we will always have one who wants to rule another.
It's important to remember that Hamas, not Israel broke a negotiated six-month cease-fire by lobbing rockets into Israeli towns in order to provoke retaliation. Hamas has once again demonstrated that they care nothing of the Palestinians whom they profess to represent.
There's a reason why Egypt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia are being uncharacteristically silent. They have no use for Hamas and are silently wishing well for Israel to overpower Hamas.
Besides I think this whole thing is just a distraction by Iran who is funding Hamas anyhow. Once Iran has nuclear capabilities (and they are moving in that direction) the whole world changes.
Wishful thinking at its best.
really? And I thought that's how we got Hitler.
If it wasn't for war, Hitler would be owning quite a bit of Real Estate by now.
Simply put there will never be peace as long as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah exist, they exist for one reason only to provoke terror, both these groups mandate is to make it so Islam rules the world period and that's that!
You wage war to remove the capability of the enemy to threaten you. The Allies did not accept any conditional surrender of either Japan or Germany (they remembered WWI). They did not stop the war until the ability of the enemy to wage war was eliminated.
IN that, Israel is still threatened. Peace is easy. Stop threatening them. Israel did not make the first move, but they will make the last move. Their enemies know this truth, and until their ability to wage war and inflict damage is eliminated, no overtures of peace are going to do anything except waste hot air and time.
I think Caroline Glick has it right.... this war would have never happened if it weren't for the failed Sharon-Olmert-Livni unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Thos of us who thought the idea was insane turned out to be right. Hamas came to power as a result of this insanity and they turned Gaza into a staging ground for rocket attacks on Israeli's. The Israeli's are dealing with a real threat. If some Canadians or Mexicans were launching rockets into America and killing American citizens, I'll bet a dollar for a donut we would see the most disproportionate response in the history of the world. Everyone would like to see peace here... Hamas could start that peace by vowing to stop firing rockets into Israel.
Israel has all rights to defend it self and attack the hamas in gaza , but they aren't doing themselves a favour by pissing of the Red Cross and not caring about civilian losses or at least really pretend to care about civilian losses. They will have a few months rest after the attack and then it will start again, like it did dozen times before.
The Problem is that any military action which would minimize civilian losses would increase the short-time losses on side of the israel army and therefore is no real option for a democratic elected government which wants to stay in power; but in the long run those civilian losses will cause more bloodshed on both sides than taking out the hamas with lots of surgical operations with special forces and precision air strikes.
And I thought that's how we got Hitler.
It was.
Just ignore the elephant in the room.
JD, if the UN is not willing to help get Hamas to stop sending rockets into Israel, peace treaties are not kept by Hamas. Please tell me what diplomatic route they have? There is a long list of countries that have tried to build peace treaties but the rockets STILL continue to come into Israel. In your opinion where exactly is the point where you say enough?
The UN doesn't do anything eventhough Hamas is commiting war crimes!
I would love to hear a diplomatic solution that hasn't already been suggested and/or failed!
exactly. What needs to done is ALL THE NATIONS need to surround wicked groups like Hamas and say ENOUGH! That will put a stop to it directly. None of this pussyfooting around.
I had three boys. When one waged war on another, I, as the dictator in my home, put a stop to it! If the offender didn't comply I made his life miserable until he got the clear message. So we didn't have too many wars. In fact it was very rare. Sounds tough but sometimes you have to be tough to get the job done.
Plain and simple. Make the punishment worse than the crime.
What needs to done is ALL THE NATIONS need to surround wicked groups like Hamas and say ENOUGH!
Indeed.
UN get a backbone????? LOL your funny. If there is any one area in politics that is such a pushover more than the UN please point it out.... because the UN is nothing but wimps....for crying out loud they got nations that put fricken padding on polls in public so unintentive cell phone users wont hurt themselves!
Dont forget how the fight genocide - they redefine it out of existance (except if it is Israel is the aggressor).
One thing I've often wondered is this: why is there never an outcry until Israel starts shooting back? Unprovoked attacks on Israel are a commonplace event, and Israel will take alot, really. But the world will avert its eyes, whistling and twiddling its thumbs, until the eventual counter-attack opens. That's when they'll angrily hit the streets in Paris, London, NYC, etc., burning Israeli flags and essentially calling for Israel to stop defending itself; to be more tolerant. Tolerant?
They've been "at war" since 1948. the Arabs long, long ago declared their opposition to Israel, and their intention to destroy it. From everything I've ever seen and heard, the Israelis would happily live in peace and cooperation with their Palestinian Arab (Muslim) neighbors. Problem is, of course, the Arabs as a people hate them, and won't allow it, much less want it, and they keep stirring the pot, making hatred of the Jews and their nation an official policy of governments, saturating everything from education to entertainment. The Nazis, the Klan, and their ideological kin, are reviled for this, yet the Arabs are permitted their views. Why? I've seen many examples of (Muslim) propaganda from that part of the world, and none of it proposes tolerant acceptance of Israel, or its existence, or even the existence of the Jews as a people. Indeed, it paints them as apes, dogs, pigs; it insists that they're pathologically, irredeemably evil, and should all be killed.
Until this view is dismissed, crushed, by the Arab people, there will never really be peace in the region. But there is no indication of this happening any time soon. They indoctrinate their children with Jew-hatred.
Israel, the one civilized, democratic nation in the region (except for Iraq now, of course, heh-heh-heh) has every right to defend itself, by any means at their disposal, the collateral damage and Palestinian body counts be damned; they should have thought of that before they hit "launch". Of course, I'm sure they did; it adds to the anti-Israeli propaganda.
The one bright spot in this, however, is that Israeli missles hit a UN compound. Every cloud, indeed, has a silver lining.
Maybe it has something to do with the death count? estimated ~400 women+children vs 3 israeli civilians (and that's assuming every male killed isn't a civilian, which is pretty unlikely!). Maybe if Isreal were a little better at not slaughtering a ton of kids they wouldn't receive such bad press - bombing a UN school wasn't exactly the best PR move the Israeli's have made, for example.
I think Israel has a right to defend itself, but it should be proportionate in it's response. Undertaking operations that result in the sort of death counts mentioned before in response to a few of them being killed isn't proportionate IMO, and certainly doesn't suggest that extreme care is taken to avoid such casualties. Yes there may be a problem with Hamas using human shields, but when ~1/3 of the dead are thought to be children, there's only so much that can be excused with that.
Another possible reason for the lack of outcry is I expect there are a higher % of palestinians (and people with very strong sympathies towards them) outside of gaza/in other countries than there are Israelis. I've no idea if that really is the case (since I cant be bothered to look up all the statistics), but if it is, it would also suggest why you're more likely to see palestinians+supporters demonstrating against israeli agression than israelis demonstrating against Hamas agression.
Tell it to Harry Truman, circa 8/6/45; I'm sure the Japanese feel the same way you do.
Thank you for your reply, but I don't think Israel has ever considered itself to be at the mercy of PR; if they did, they probably would have been wiped out long ago. Israel has always had to be very practical in its reaction to its circumstances, and is probably the one nation in the world that still possesses that practicality as concerning its national defense.
Why should the Israelis be "proportionate" in their response? After decades of killings by suicide bombers (some known to jump on school buses, BTW), car/truck bombers, shootings, war, threats of war, barbaric, anti-Israeli propaganda, etc., I see no reason why they should do anything but whatever needs done to destroy the enemy. They're surrounded by nations that literally want them exterminated; not just as a nation, but as a people, as well.
Those enemy nations are not civilized and tolerant, as we Westerners are encouraged, even coerced, to be. Otherwise, they would long ago have learned to live with the Israelis and this topic wouldn't even be an issue. But, that's not the case.
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