In today's world there is little sympathy for political struggles whose primary weapon is unmitigated and wanton attacks on civillians. In fact Islamic terrorism has undermined the sympathy many once had for the Palestenians and their dispalcement from Arab lands and even here one may probably make out a strong case that the Arab governments were as guilty as any other power.
The breakdown of the cease fire was heralded by the rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civiliian targets. The HAMAS cannot claim that the targets in thweir gunsights were military targets as all the rockets landed in heavily populated civilian areas. The purpose was clear to wreak havoc in the population of Israel and the State of Israel responded by launcing a series of air strikes against HAMAS targets. Nearly 300 people were ckilled. It is clear from the footage released by the Israeli Ministry of Defence that HAMAS has hidden their rockets in highly populated areas thereby that organisation is guilty of using civilians as shields. The Israeli Defence Minister has pointed out that the primary objective was the degradation of HAMAS capacity to target civilians using their rockets.
Israel is showing great courage by inflicting huge casualities on the HAMAS and it is time foer civilised nations of the world to declare war against terrorist organisations, non-state terrorist organisations and it is time to extend the definition of terrorism to include governments that allow by default their territory being used for launching terorist attacks. Israel has shown the way and it is time for the rest of the world to realise that by finding political justifications for terrorism they are in reality only encouraging terrorism. It is time to say "enough is enough" and Israel's example is ceratinly a worthwehile one.
Liberals will cry out about the unacceptable level of civilian casualities but the responsibility for that lies squarely with the HAMAS which used civilian areas to hide thweir weapon dumps.
I am happy to see that so many people are for the defence of Iseral . Hamas needs to be taken down once and for all. It is sad that so many civilians are dead, but what can you do? Its not like the IDF Air pilots cant aim, its becuase Hamas is using the city of Gaza as a shield. If they were true soliders, they would go out at fight. But since they know they would lose, Hamas fight like cowards. What do you expect from people that tell their children to become sucide bombers?
Also, if your intrestead, The IDF has set up a youtube channel so you can see what they are doing in Gaza.
Interesting you bring this up- considering this was a war in which Iraq was championed by the West and Saddam was seen as one of our guys throughout the whole thing. So much so that we (the West) provided him with chemical and biological weapons, satellite photography and intelligence. We even turned a blind eye to the attrocities he committed against his own people during the 80's, largely using weapons provided by us, because he was at that time considered a "good guy" since he was fighting the evildoers in Iran.
Then after that disastrous war, since Iraq was pretty much bankrupted and massively indebted to countries like Kuwait, who were now calling in their debts and would have put Iraq in pretty much the same situation as Weimar Germany circa the late 1920's, Saddam figured "I invaded Iran and they were okay with it, why not a little country like Kuwait??" And all the ethnic cleansing he carried out domestically? He figured since none of the big boys said a peep during his war with Iran no one would care now anyway.
He even arranged for a face to face with U.S diplomats to make sure that we would be okay with him invading Kuwait (in much the same fashion as Israel needs to get a green light from the U.S before partaking of any major military action, as we see evident now with President Bush's consolation gift to Israel as he couldn't greenlight the carpet bombing of Iran they were just itching to carry out) Saddam genuinely believed the response the U.S diplomats gave him was a green light to go ahead and invade Kuwait. When he told them what he was planning, they never told him not to do it but instead gave a rather aloof answer that they were committed to maintaining good ties with Iraq and were committed to peace in the region. Saddam figured "there'll be plenty of peace in the region after I take Kuwait!" and then hung himself with the rope he was handed.
The truth is, as is so often found in so many instances, there are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but only pawns who dance to the tune of a puppet master. Once Saddam had outlived his usefulness to the U.S, and had failed in their desired objectives at that, it was time for him to go.
What we see unfolding in Gaza now is more of the same... another calculated move to obtain a political goal (to replace Hamas with Fatah is the goal this time) disguised in the cloak of over-simplified "good guys battling the evil terrorists" mantra. The reality is that a lot of innocent people are getting caught in the cross fire, much of it is senseless and pointless, and yet in order for it to happen ALL of the civillian casualties must be blamed on the evildoers and be justified as such.
But at the end of the day, the families of those murdered will remember that it was Israeli bombs that killed their loved ones, not Hamas (who they elected into power) using them as human shields.
But this can never be part of the discussion. In order for these campaigns to be waged, the discussion must always be the myth of pure good (who can do no wrong) battling pure evil. Very rarely does this ever actually happen. Once you strip away the jingoism and myth of the "good fight", you come to the reality of countless lives shattered over a political goal, in this case much of it documented here-
http://gazaeng.blogspot.com/
Before I respond to this, let's make it very clear that I'm not defending Hamas in any way. With that said, you're making the whole affair sound very one sided. What actually happened is that after the election...which Hamas won...the outcome was unacceptable to Fatah (and Israel), so a power struggle ensued. There were deaths and murders on both sides, much the same as happens in a gang war. Fatah got caught with their pants down and took a licking, Hamas turned out to be far stronger and carried more popular support than Fatah originally thought.
Now, we are witnessing the campaign to restore Fatah to power, which is also consequently inflicting punishment on the people of Gaza for siding with Hamas...considering that about half of all the casualties inflicted since the IDF put boots on the ground in Gaza are civillians....
And all the ethnic cleansing he carried out domestically? He figured since none of the big boys said a peep during his war with Iran no one would care now anyway.
The world would have been a better place if Saddam had been Jewish. There would have been a world-wide outcry after he killed the first few hundred Kurdish terrorists.
Before I respond to this, let's make it very clear that I'm not defending Hamas in any way.
You don't have to. Trying to stop Israel from defending herself and blaming her for the deaths caused by a war started by Hamas is all the support Hamas need from you.
I promise you that I absolutely feel at least twice as much regret for the Arab victims of the war as the Arabs feel for the Jewish victims of the war.
Note that I do not blame all Arabs in Gaza for the war, far from it. I realise there are innocent peaceful people living there.
I only blame the 85% who voted for Hamas and wanted war with Israel.
In order for these campaigns to be waged, the discussion must always be the myth of pure good (who can do no wrong) battling pure evil. Very rarely does this ever actually happen.
I assume you have already concluded that Israel _cannot_ be a good guy?
Did you ever see the series "Centenial"? A great work by Michener that traces the history of the US through the settlement of Colorado. The series (based very closely on the book) was done very well (it runs over 26 hours). IN it is one villian (there are others, but for this discussion, he is the culprit) - Skimmerhorn. He broke a peace treaty with an Indian tribe and massacred the tribe that consisted of mostly WOmen and Children (the Braves were elsewhere). When a Sergeant asked what to do with a couple of children he caught, skimmerhorn replied "nits grow into lice".
If their goal is the extermination of the Jews, then their actions are to erradicate any where they are found. And their "defense" in this regard is to prevent them from growing into adults.
Note: I totally abhor the actions and do not condone them, I was just offering a possible explanation to what I know is a rhetorical question on Leauki's part.
Again the lie. I wish you liberals would get your facts straight. the Old soviet Union provided him with weapons, the west only provided him with Intel. Please dont propigate a lie and think that repeating it often enough will validate it.
So much so that we (the West) provided him with chemical and biological weapons, satellite photography and intelligence.
Hm.
When I was there Kurdish officials showed me lots of weapons but they were all made in the Soviet Union.
http://gallery.me.com/ajbrehm#100025&bgcolor=black&view=grid
Is it possible that you are confusing the US with the Soviet Union?
I don't know anything about bioligical weapons in Iraq. I was shown pictures of victims of chemical weapons. But as far as I could discover the poison gas was made in a German-sponsored factory in Samarra (in Iraq). Is that the "West" you were referring to? It sounded as if you were pointing at America rather than Germany.
Of course you (Arty) might have better sources than I. (Some guy who was never there wrote a book? Isn't that how you discovered the crimes of the Shah?)
You usually claim to have superior knowledge. You also "knew" more about the Lebanon war than I (who was there while it happened), so it wouldn't surprise me if you "knew" more about Saddam's weapons than I (who has seen them in their natural environment).
The weirdest thing is that while the EU now tries to save Hamas from defeat, Egypt has been standing firmly behind Israel.
It goes without saying that the EU doesn't really care about civilians. If it did, France and Germany wouldn't have sold weapons to Saddam Hussein and would have been just as active diplomatically to stop the Sudanese government from killing hudreds of thousands of Darfurians as it is now trying to stop Israel from killing Hamas terrorists.
Note: I totally abhor the actions and do not condone them
Doc, that goes without saying.
Of course, a liberal cannot say the same thing without a but-face.
But this can never be part of the discussion. In order for these campaigns to be waged, the discussion must always be the myth of pure good
You know, I don't really care about "good" or "evil".
I have learned from liberals that it is "evil" for Jews not to submit to rocket fire. But "good" and "evil" are outdated concepts.
It is time liberals wake up and realise that the world has changed from "murdering Jewish children is good" or "murdering Jewish children is evil" to "murder Jewish kids and you will die".
It doesn't matter if firing rockets into Jewish schools is "good" or "evil". It doesn't matter if shooting back until it stops is "good" or "evil". All that matters is that IF it happens, there WILL be a response.
We can ignore the morality of it completely if you like.
If the world cannot accept that murdering Jews is "evil", we might at least get the world to accept that murdering Jews now has consequences.
Anyway, you can now stop pretending that "pure good" has anything to do with the discussion. The discussion is now officially about only the consequences of murdering Jews and not the morality of it.
Israel just hit a school in Gaza.
Hence the world has now decided that hitting schools is "evil".
It wasn't "evil" last week when Hamas and the PLO had fired at schools for years, on purpose, with no repercussions whatsoever.
Can a liberal please explain to me why hitting schools is now "evil" and wasn't last week?
I am just asking out of curiosity.
Leauki said-
Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad.[6]
Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said,
UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
Oh yeah, and the U.S also sent 70 shipments of anthrax to Iraq too.
What happened to all that stuff?
The media are now reporting Hamas has declared that Israel has legitimized killing Jewish children anywhere in the world. And they are reporting it as if that's OK. No condemnation of the statement.
It's old news. Hamas have always said that killing Jewish children is legitimate.
And the world has never reacted as if that weren't OK, not when Hitler said it, not when the PLO said it; why would it be different when Hamas says it again?
It's inconceivable, but it appears like the liberals posting here, despite their obvious superior knowledge of these things, have been wrong about military strikes not working against terrorist groups.
Hizbullah is apparently under orders not to help Hamas because Lebanon fears an Israeli response.
Lebanon's parliament majority leader Saad Hariri on Monday claimed that Hezbollah would not respond to Israel's devastating offensive against Hamas in Gaza.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053014.html\
Key words were 'The media are now reporting' - as if it were a new thing. Just pointing out the hypocrisy, which is itself old news, I admit.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Conducting a military operation in this manner-
http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20090106.asp
Brings you down the same level as your enemy. Additionaly, and this is no excuse or justification, the vast majority of the munitions fired by Hamas are unguided homemade rockets with a handful of low grade soviet munitions. Meanwhile, Israel has 1000 and 2000 pound guided munitions, helicopter gunships, mobile artillery, merkaba (merkava?) tanks, full control of the skies, massive surveillance apparatus and depleted uranium rounds. In short, the IDF has a much more powerful force at it's disposal, and therefore much more responsibility in choosing how that force is applied.
The current manner in which they've chosen to apply that force is the worst possible, and using the argument that "since they blow up our schools we can do the same to them!" means that during WW2 the Allies would have been equally justified in taking German prisoners (civillians) and sending them to death camps. But they didn't, because they were better than their enemies.
So the same applies to Israel, but to imply that there's any serious comparison between Hamas and the IDF in terms of their capabilities is laughable at best. Hamas is some guys with small arms and largely innefective short range, indirect fire weapons with little to no guidance. Israel has one of the best military apparatus on the planet, with the full support and backing of the U.S and yet they've argued that it's necessary to bring this massive hammer down to crush a flea, which of course will do more dammage to the surrounding area than the flea. This will ensure that they'll have plenty of enemies down the road, as the survivors will be embittered towards them. And so it goes.
Now the aerial munitions dropped by Israel are deliberately targeted. That means that when a hospital or school is hit, specifically two schools being used as marked U.N shelters for noncombatants, someone in the IDF made the conscious decision to drop bombs on it.
Now, does this mean that the IDF are deliberately targeting civillian structures for some evil reason? I don't think so. If anything, and going in conjunction with the fact that 4 IDF soldiers have been killed in the last little while by friendly fire, this is indicative of another issue;
Contrary to all the spin, clearly Gaza has become a free fire zone for the IDF, and they've brought a lot of firepower to bear on it. This is similar to what happened in the second American attack on Fallujah, when the whole area was essentially a free fire zone and they turned one of the local stadiums into a mass morgue. Same thing happening here, on a possibly larger scale.
After GW1 almost all of what was left was destroyed... hence why so little "WMD's" were found in Iraq when they invaded in GW2.
Just a few notes. Living in Gaza before it was given to Palestianians it was nice. It a lot of grapes and olives plantation and the land. Now after (I still was there for work but moved) it was given up its just a waste land.
Now before I gone on I am sick and tired of the ignorance level of people in the States.
First, Hamas is a militia which has been stated. BUT ITS MAIN OBJECTIVE IS TO WIPE OUT ISRAEL.
Second, there is an individual who keeps saying that Israel is a foreign occupier. I am guessing he's from the States and you, sir (Cry), according to your very own logic are a foreign occupier and best leave the States ASAP. Unless you are a Native American.
Third, Israel agreed to the 48 land solution PA didn't. They again had the opporunity in the 78/79 and PA still didn't agree to it.
Fourth, there HAVE ALWAYS been Jews in the land called Israel and will be until true Moshiach comes.
Fifth, most people from the States (or at least people from California/West Coast) don't realize is that Israel is only the lessor satan according to radical Islam. The U.S. is the great satan.
Sixth, after leaving over in Israel (lived on the Jumbla Zatune/Har Zatem aka Mount of Olives) as well I would not fly an 'American' flag any where in PA or on the Mount of Olives due to the fact that they dislike people from the State.
Seventh, there WILL NEVER BE PEACE FOR LAND! Giving land for peace will never work!
That is all. One final thing is that CNN only reports the Israel military dead compared to all of the dead PA.
News Media Outlets in the States are bunch of mooncalves! I'm not just talking about CNN here but FoxNews.
Blessings!
After looking over my post. I am kind of ashamed at how bad it is since it is my native tongue. I meant living in Sixth, after leaving and not leaving. For the fourth sentence I meant now before I go on.
Please spare some forgiveness. It is hard to type one language when you have people talking to you in a different one (especially if you know the other language). Now if you didn't know the language then it wouldn't be a problem.
That's not possible. There is nothing lower. The goal in this battle is the death of the other (at least on the Hamas side). Isreal should not give a rip what others think - it's their country that has been shelled relentlessly throughout the 'truce' & I hope they don't go all limp just because some armchair closet anti-semites get their nickers in a wad. A people who send their children as homicide weapons to kill & maim & be killed in the process deserve no respect or leniency from Israel whatsoever.
People weren't stirred about this until Israel fought back. Now they want accountability on the Israeli side but no accountability from chamas.
I abhor this war but I see Israel left with the option to go after the one's attacking their children.
First, Aspirin has "biological significance" so that is bogus. Second, unless you can come up with an authoratative source, I still say you are spreading the same lie as Wiki is. I never said you were the only one spreading it. And that Wiki article is just proof of my assertion - the liberals keep spreading the lies (did you note that none of the references that were from credible sources other than the one hack job of the partisan congress clown, supported the the NBC weapons point? And that the rest were a simple re-stating of the obvious and admitted support for Iraq with intel?)
The problem with providing proganda links is that someone may actually read the whole thing, and dig through the sources and find a lot of lies, false conclusions and outrageous accusations - but no proof or even evidence.
You spoke too early.
Turns out the school was used by Hamas terrorists and they shot from it. That's a war crime, but unless we can prove that Hamas are Jewish I don't think that will ever come up.
Isreal should stop the violence, sit back, suck it up and take it. Sure, if they stop fighting, the shelling of Isreal will continue until the end of eternity (or the end of Isreal, whichever comes first), but the important thing here is not survival--it's public opinion.
Right?
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