Alrighty, so, I didn't want to write up a post like this until I got a good deal of game time with Entrenchment and be able to do this kind of thing justice.
So, time to jump right in.
Starbases
Right away it becomes obvious that starbases were designed to be flexible and specialized - having many more possible upgrades than available upgrade slots. Some of these roles they can fill well, others not so much. Their super abilities seem appropriate to their races.
The problem with them becomes with a certain playstyle. Namely, those who want Starbases to be the unavoidable defense mechanism are disappointed because, well, they're mostly avoidable. The most common suggestion to "fix" this is to increase their range. But then, that doesn't actually fix anything. Sure, with a longer range it'll be harder to pass it by without taking any shots. But you could still pass it by. Sure you might lose a few frigates while your fleet passes in range, but if you don't want to fight it [unless you're trying to bomb a planet and the orbiting starbase has a working upgrade that protects the planet] you can still jump out and attack another planet.
So, a range increase won't really do much, the way I see it. That's not to say range cannot be tweaked, but this range breakdown would make sense to me (this assumes maxed out weapon upgrades, and I could see sticking some of these range enhancements in them):
- Each starbase seems to have a short, medium, and long range weapon with the starting weapon being medium.
- The "short" range weapon should be able to hit any ship short of each races' long range frigates/defense busters.
- The medium range weapon should be able to hit Vasari/Advent long range frigates. The TEC always had a range advantage with the Javelis, so it needs to keep it.
- The long range weapon should hit all ships except defense busters.
-The long range weapon should also do more damage, as it's the only weapon that can hit that far, and the closer you come to the starbase the more firepower from other weapons it can use. At the same time, shortest weapon should do the most damage as it's similarly limited and it's the "special" weapon (heavy beams, lightning, etc). So in terms of highest>lowest damage progression it should be Shortest > Longest > Medium.
Now, that still leaves us with the problem of being able to bypass the starbases. The best suggestion for this I have is to bring back the beta-style PJI as part of its "this planet can't be nuked while the starbase is alive" upgrade. Basically, it would prevent jumping into your space but have no penalties for jumping into neutral or hostile space. Basically, it would be purely defensive. A hostile fleet that jumps in would be able to leave unhindered, but not be allowed to pass by the starbase to raid the next planet. This would also be useful at the star, if you own a planet that connects to it, or neutrals in the similar setup.
This PJI-like effect plus the range moderate range changes, when supported by repair stations and conventional defenses, should definitely make a maxed out "defensive" starbase do a good job at the defending thing. I definitely think most/all range enhancements should be part of the weapons upgrade.
The last thing is more aesthetic and unlikely to change. But, it's a bit odd for a starbase with so many firing points to all focus on a single ship. The imagery of a giant starbase loaded with weapons in movies, games, etc is that it's able to attack many ships at once. Watching it pour everything into one ship is a bit anti-climatic, especially when that ship (usually) doesn't even pop in one volley. Pretty sturdy ship to survive *that* much punishment for a while.. In any case, if it's possible, I think it would be great to tweak the focus fire mechanics a bit. I realize this is probably too deep in the weapons code since even with 20 firing points it's still one weapon and one shot, though. But, better to bring it up than not.
Mines
So mines turned out to be sort of a can of worms. In principle, they can be a great addition but their implementation right now is a little wonky:
- First, the mine detection is a bit buggy. In a lot of cases, they flicker between vulnerable/invulnerable which adds quite a bit of time since there's a very small window in which a ship can fire at them so the stars need to align just right.
- Second, placing mines takes way, way less effort than it does to disarm them (especially the spam-a-riffic Vasari/Advent ones).
- Third, mines created by the Vasari ability can be spammed to an insane amount, and to a lesser extent the same can be done with the Advent mines. The AI especially on Autocast just floods mines *everywhere*. I recently played a game where it took me half an hour to clear 600+ Vasari mines from one grav well with the flickering glitch. TEC doesn't really have this problem because mines cost resources, so the AI at least doesn't spam them.
- Fourth, Advent/Vasari mines can be deployed right at the jump-in spot.
Assuming the flickering glitch is fixed, the only remaining major issues are the effort to disarm and the spammability.
Regarding disarming:
- Mines are easy to deploy, so they should not be cumbersome to sweep.
- Currently, you need to micromanage extensively to disarm mines. First you move a scout in, then some combat ships, wait for them to shoot, then repeat.
The best idea I have is that mine sweeping should be consolidated to be done by one ship (preferrably the scout). This would work great for Advent/Vasari mines since they are the SpaceMine entity so the scout's minesweep ability can easily apply a DoT to mines in range. But of course, the TEC mines are planetary structures so that doesn't work. Failing that, the scout should at least disable abilities on the mines so they don't explode and so that you don't need to hold your breath and hope your ships making wide forward arcs on turns don't hit them. Either way, something needs to be done to cut down on the micromanaging required to destroy the mines.
Some kind of limit on mines allowed per grav well would probably be good (50-60?), but making all of them cost resources seems a more streamlined limiter - especially when disarming becomes easier and (hopefully) there's some AE way to sweep them.
Now, deploying mines at jumpin is nasty. Nasty, nasty. There's absolutely nothing incoming ships can do. Sure there are jump-in angles that you can control, but it's fairly easy to cover the entire arc with mines and even if you scout that minefield you still don't have a choice but to jump in a lot of cases. You can send a few suicide ships to trigger some mines, but the enemy can just replenish them for free. If the scout detection disabled abilities on the mines, this wouldn't be a problem - but as long as Advent and Vasari mines can be deployed beyond the standard build zone, this will always be an issue.
Defense busters
The Ogrov and the Starfish (well, we have the space whale, might as well have another marine nickname!) are interesting ships, but their usefulness is greatly diminished by the fact that their damage is strictly done by abilities and right now you have to target each and every ship. You really need to be able to select all of them, click the ability, select the target and have all of the selected ships use the ability. Otherwise they will never be used if you need to babysit cooldowns for each and every ship.
I don't have much other issue with them. There are some suggestions about combining the defense buster and the siege frigate but I don't see a logical connection between the two. Sieges are paper thin with short range planet nukes, and defense busters are sturdier cruisers with extremely long range attack. The two are pretty much incompatible, the role types differ too much to merge the ships.
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Fin.
I would never suggest such atrocity
I just had another idea re: pji thingy on the starbase, Tkins.
Right now the base has 8 upgrade slots. ~5-6 are taken up by the weapons and armor research. What if the PJI unlock was on the third rank of the planet defense upgrade? That way, you have to make a hard choice between the various super-abilities (meteorite, debris suck/shield, detonation/frigate construction) and the PJI?
That would be a pretty tough choice wouldn't it? Maybe that wouldn't be so bad. Those who really want to block travel to their innards can do so, but it would leave their starbase with just the basic weapons and hp upgrades, none of the extra fancy stuff? Plus they'd have to sink a considerable sum of money into it, which isn't that easy to come by in small/medium games.
I agree with most things here. I would like to see a higher limit on mines maybe 200. If they will be easier and faster to clear then this should not be a problem. Also being able to place them where ships jump in is a no no imo. In reality I doubt any empire would do this for fear of their own ships hitting one when they jump in. I think all mines should cost money/ resources but not tac slots or anything.
On to the PJI. I like the stop all ships to friendly worlds but.... like others said it puts a damper on strategies. So heres my take on it. We have a PJI structure. So lets use it for this purpose. If you want to raid then you have to take out the PJI. Their range should be increased to the entire grav well. This will make the torpedo cruisers more useful for takeing out PJI for raids. Im not against putting a PJI on a starbase too but the main PJI should be the structure. The structure could stop ships altogether while the starbase slows jumps like the vanilla. So you could still do raids by taking out the PJI but it will be annoying with a sb there as it will slow you down. You will also have to bring in a specialized fleet to get by especially if hangers and sb get fighter buffs like they should.
Starbases. I like the range suggestions I have made similiar ones already. However the long range should be LONG. Just inside the torpedo cruisers range. I mean sb are huge right? So they could have huge missile launchers with huge missiles with extreme ranges. Starbases and hangers need major strikecraft buffs because any online player is going to come with huge amounts of strikecraft NOT 6-7. An entire planet would yield a large amount of fighter craft imo. Most of the upgrades are great. IN paticular I really dislike sb abilities to damage planets and structures. I mean these are useless imo. I am totally against using sb for offense. It doesnt make sense to be able to build a mammoth structure near an enemy planet. Things like this take huge amounts of manpower,planning,and resources. I would like to see much more options in upgrading sb. Something like super laser that can destroy a cruiser in one shot with extreme range would be feared. Possibilities could be endless for sb. They could be turned into research stations or factories. I think they should fit any role you want it to. Even retrofit with engines that you can move it around very very slowly. I think this would be cool for structures and defense turrets too. Tractor beams, shield buffs for friendlies,range buffs for friendlies,antimatter distribution center,repulsor beams,repair bays,ion cannons, aussalt transports, PJI, PLante defense shields, suddenly sb become exciting to build and when you see one you never know what you are getting into. With a module limit like they have now I think it could work.
Torpedo cruiser need to be automated. There needs to be a way to use an ability for a group of selected ships as well. If tc get automated I think they will be op too so their damage needs to be reduced. I mean they counter with range if they destroy everything in no time then it becomes frustrating for the defender who spent all that money and time.
Now that's an interesting idea.
I like this. As a super ability it fits well. We won't be able to simply block all jumps right off the bat, but given enough time and resources you can set up a mega defense. Let's test it out!
Yes, I also like this too.
I'd say the extreme long range weapons needs to outrange everything including the defense busters.
Defense busters would still be able to take down all other planetary defenses without taking a shot. With the new improved planetary defenses I'd say that's no small feat. The Starbase would be able to fire back but with only one weapon so the defense busters would still be able to wreac havoc. Taking down a fully upgraded Starbase should be a combined effort of ships and defense busters and not just parking a few Ogrovs outside its range.
It would be cool if capital ships would be somewhat more effective against Starbases - the bases could have an armor type that is most vulnerable to Capital damage. Give caps something to shine at.
I support the idea that starbases will prevent the enemy from jumping to friednly planets but not from retreating.
Why because the other alternatives can turn into exploits. Now I don't want to name every other alternative and exploit since the list is as long as the alternatives.
Also me personaly if i have the possibilaty to just bypass a starbase by simply flying throught the grav well I sure as hell will and will keep that planet for last on my to kill list. So your investment for a starbase will become 100% redundant and useless. Which ultimately means that starbase will become a luxery item instead of a usefull item. And if it's a luxery item the only people who are gonna be building them are the people who are currently winning and steam rolling their adversaries.
And strategicly talking no one would fight a starbase if they don't have to unless their force is overwhelming campared to the enemy.
Also for people who say starbases blocking enemies will limit tactics your wrong. IT will in fact increase tactics as since now the defensive tactics wich current are inexistant will become viable.
In addition for small maps starbases won't change much since a small map you always endup in high combat very quickly thus making the research and deployment of even 1 base irelevant. Bases will only become relevent when the maps are larger and thus the game lasting longer. Which is you block one choke point they are other alternative route around it. IT just takes your enemy longer to get to your worlds and get reinforcments. It will also encorage more colonizing of worlds in order to create safe retreat routes or box in enemy forces.
All to be said i can think of a bunch of new stratergies to use if bases block. And if they don't the same old strategies of simply rushing you enemi remains the only real viable one.
Well stated, I conceed the issue.
Perhaps dealing with mines doesn't have to be a balance issue, but rather an AI issue? Perhaps if ships defaulted to 'mine clearing' as a default activity, that is that flees with scouts actively paired up to detect and destroy mines, rather than making the user do it manually, that would alleviate the mine issue greatly. Moving ships prioritize nearby mines, to 'clear the way' while ships with range to fire at enemy combatants without running into mines would do so.
I posit an algorithm to do it.
Fleets are always aware of mines, even if they are invulnerable. If there aren't any scouts, they'll move normally through the minefield, blowing up spectacularly.
If there are scouts, manuver them so that their detection radius incorporates the closest mines. If the enemy is in range, fire at the enemy. However, if the enemy is not in range, see if there are mines in the way. If there are, blow them up, them move to engage the enemy.
If there are no enemy ships in the gravity well, target mines giving them the same priority as hangers/turrents. Scouts should automatically work toghether with fleets to detect and destroy mines.
Slight balance change:
Increase the detection radius of the scout so the line between detecting mines and blowing up in them isn't such fine line, Mine detection has an unlimited Z radius.
The main difficulty is that the USER must destroy mines. No one wants to play clicky clicky all day. If fleets procedurely detected and destroyed mines on their own, then the respectively different ways of mine laying would be more balanced.
Also make it so destroyed mines don't explode. That would avoid the automatic attrition problems of players being forced to jump into minefields.
The Kosutra cannon should destroy all mines.
This is just a thing, but I don't think Vasari and Advent mines should be as effective as TEC mines, as they can be densely packed and made to be unavoidable. Right now all mines destroy all but heavy frigates and carriers in one blow. The damage done should be MUCH less, at least for free mines. Perhaps blowing up 1/4 of a frigate's hitpoints in the blast radius.
As for starbases: They don't have to be 'unavoidable', or prevent jumping to the next planet. They just have to make running through enemy territory HURT. The initial starbase is quite weak.
Starbases need to have more DESTRUCTIVE power. Sure- perhaps you can run around a starbase to a vital planet, but if you lose 2-5 frigates as you are skirting the gravwell, it had better pay off. The initial 2000 credits you spend should pay off. So if the enemy loses 2-5 LRMS, or 1-2 Enforcers while skirting the starbase, I'd say that's more than fair.
So what do you do? Increase the radius of the PJI, and the starbase so they've covering all the phaselanes. This way you are punishing the enemy for running in and out of your empire willy nilly.
Would it be too much trouble to show arcs explicitly where enemy ships can jump in and out of a gravity well?
I'm not seeing a better idea than this.
On mines: Yes, auto-clearing has to be part of it.
I don't like this idea on the principle that it always assumes Starbase + PJI. Without either it's horribly lopsided. Any gravwell could be made into a mini-deathstar with a normal PJI that would deny jumping in further, cutting off players' ability to try and raid with a small force (the main reason the PJI is the way it is now).
At the same time, a maxed out starbase can hold a fleet from retreating in time and without the retreating fleet having a chance to kill it.
So to me, this is the worst of both worlds, so to speak. The node blockade is meant to be a powerful and special ability, and if every node can be blockaded with a cheap PJI structure, it defeats the purpose. At the same time, a starbase can delay any phase jumping at all, which is meant to be counter-able now by destroying the brittle PJI. So the balance here gets thrown out the window, really. A blockade-PJI isn't as effective as a blockade-Starbase because if the raid force has enough bombers they can make one or two passes at it (and every single planet will have one). And a PJI-starbase is too effective over PJI because a raid can never kill it to escape. Everything is the opposite of what it's meant to be
And a blockade starbase has to be destroyed to be able to raid. Do you really want to have to destroy a starbase in every single gravity well, just to go on to the next planet?
The point of having the node blockade on the PJI is that the PJI can be much more easily destroyed than the starbase.
Having a PJI starbase means that the starbase can inflict more casualties on the enemy fleet, even if it doesn't force them to fight it.
But we've already established that this starbase upgrade would be very high end and at the cost of all the other "super" abilities. It is of course conceivable that every grav well can eventually have a maxed out Starbase - but it's very unlikely
I wasn't aware we were merging the ideas; I was just trying to treat them separately.
Maybe a thought of an addittional fleet deployment option. (tight, loose, wedge, sweeper, etc.)
But the fleet assigned would have to meet some criteria. Something like a scout, X number of frigates, and a cruiser or cap ship. Maybe you need to have a cap ship w/ fighters.
Just a thought from a newbie!
I think mines should be cumbersome to sweep. What's the point otherwise? They are meant to delay fleets and blow things up.
But the minefields need to be reasonable and limited in size instead of nonstop spam.
Everything you said in the post was great, but I think carrying over the PJI from beta as is to a starbase ability is a bit overpowered, i think a PJI ability that drains antimatter slowly over time would be better, or you could have the PJI be a targetable subsystem of the starbase so that you could knock it out of comission to allow a raiding party through. after all raids are a valid strategy, but they shouldn't be so easy to pull off.
A blockade-PJI isn't as effective as a blockade-Starbase because if the raid force has enough bombers they can make one or two passes at it (and every single planet will have one).
See this is where diff strats come in. It can be very effective if you station 5 carriers along side it or maybe 5-10 flak frigs. You could even put up 2 PJI in case one gets destroyed delaying the jump longer but taking up tactical slots. I can see many different approaches to this setup that can be countered and re-countered. It seems to me we are really going to have a hard time in setting up a totally planet supplied defenses that will be "invincible". I think we all need to realize here that sb should be a sort of blockade to defend your empire but at the same time you have to back them up with ships to create a quality blockade. Also they must be defeatable.Defenses are stationary and grav wells are big. If you want to successfully defend your stationary defenses you have to have something there to counter the things that counter them or defend them. On the same note to counter bombers you build hangers which imo need a major buff. If we could get these buffs on hangers and fighter buffs on sb then I think your PJI would be defendable from a small- medium size carrier force. There has to be a middle ground to allow raids but also stop them. This approach could eliminate raids on the scale that some are thinking and may require 1/3 to 1/2 of your fleet to get by it but rightly so imo. It shouldnt be that easy. To run a blockade should require scouting,strategy,planning,and execution. Same goes for setting up a defense. It shouldnt be place structure A and upgrade it to level 3 and forget about it. Scouting plays a much bigger role now so that you can counter and adapt to your enemy=strategy. If ships played a role in defense I think it would help break up spams and role all ships into one fleet strategy. See you now would have the choice of building multiple fleets and trying raids on different fronts at the same time. Opponent would have to decide to use his force to defend or if he is confident do the same to you. In that case if he didnt leave ships of his own behind for defens he could be screwed.Anyway it all sounds good in my head
Mines would greatly compliment this IF they are done in balance.
The other problem with having it as an upgrade for a sb is who the heck is not gonna put this on it. It would be the only upgrade that makes the sb worth anything.
I forgot to mention the PJI structure needs to be extended to entire well so you can place it near your sb and defensive structures. It should be possible to take it out but exetremely hard and not without losses. That means you have to get in range of the sb.
a question concerning the defense busters: why does it have to be an ability that fires it? that apparently causes some problems with range, attack automation, etc. could it not be a simple attack that only works against structures? of course, it may be possible that a normal attack is always possibe against both ships and structures and you cannot shut that restraint down.
apart from the fact that there is no logical reason as to why a weapon that can bust a big defensive installation cannot kill mere ships - as long as it hits them. but that's just trying to intepret too much sense into a game.
And that's the problem. Abilities are the only way to make it work against structures but not anything else.
Ships move too fast. You're going to miss. The weapon's too big, dumb, and explodey to have navigational AI.
@Annatar
Then give it a 1 DPS weapon? It'll never kill any ships, but at least it'll maintain range.
alas, I speculated correctly.
well, why not going to sole soul approach? the lowest possible modifier against anything but structures and the latter 5 times the target priority of everyhing else. then, of course, maybe the modifiers also only work in increments, like 25% is the lowest you can get. which would be far too high for those torpedo cruisers.
Actually I think Annatar was the first person to suggest it. Then again, he may have stolen it from someone else, as well.
It doesn't matter what modifier you give it if the DPS is low enough, though. Just give it a DPS of 1, mount the weapon on the front, and have it auto-fire and auto-use the ability on structures.
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