Is it even possible to play on the bigger maps with hundreds of planets? How can you even manage that?
Epic patience is required, that's a given!
So I'm the only one who wants bigger maps with more planets, then?
The main problem with so big maps is that it's not centralized, there is no chokepoints in this game, thus it's really hard to take care of everything around the map. So there is no way to "defend" any planets on the largest maps, you only attack, no defense is possible because with hundreds of planets you don't know where they are going to attack. So in the end it's about who is more aggressive and takes all other's planets with massive invasions of hundreds of fleets.
I mostly play on medium, Large maps already take up too much time for each turn. Thus I can't go any bigger than Large.
If it were four times as large, I'd still want it to be larger. It'll never be enough for me.
*shrug*
I suppose it's worth mentioning that I live for the colony rush. Larger galaxy = more planets = longer rush = happier me.
I do agree that not having chokepoints does become an issue, but I still enjoy the larger maps immensely.
I have found the larger the map the easier it is to defend your empire. At least on the tightly clustered star groups that I play with. Each star group turns into its own little island where various empires compete over the scraps. This leaves me in a good possition to consolidate my possition in my local star groups. It is then just a matter of moving in and cleaning house when my ambition outgrows my corner of the galaxy. >
I admit I miss the days of DA where I could end the colony rush with 200+ planets, and stil have all the enemy planets left to take. Now I'm lucky if I can get 400+ planets on one map.
One good thing about this game.
You can play whatever version you wish to play.
I am still only playing DL. But I have all the updates, from the beginning. So I can revert to any version, at any time I choose.
It is only sensible to save to the hard drive any version which you may want to go back to. Be it DL, DA, or beyond.
As to managing that many planets; it takes time, patience and perseverance - nothing more.
I also love more planets to colonize and work with. I have found that in later parts of a game where you have 300+ planets it can take a couple of days to complete one turn, but on an epic game that is no real issue for me.
As for keeping your planets defended, i tend to design a huge sensor platform that acts as an early warning to AI invasions allowing me to move a sector fleet into position in time.
But in the end it does come down to patience
I play on large maps with abundant stars and planets, and even that is a little much for me. Medium is just a little to small. I love the colony rush too, which is why I set the way I do, but the thought of micromanaging 100 planets or more seems like a nightmare to me.
It might be easier if I understood the governors better. (As it is I made my own tech tree, mostly to keep from upgrading to industrial sectors...)
I would really love to see nuetral zones/areas of control where other races couldn't penetrate. Well they could, it just means they get war declared if they don't ask first. The ability to create fronts and borders would allow for a more refined strategic and diplomatic experience as opposed to dodgeball in space.
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@ antracer - I totally agree with you. It would be WAY easier to have a decent border system. A major reason for this is that I get incredibly ticked off when I see that the AI is moving dozens of its military ships through my space. I also get really ticked when an insignificant AI decides to go and build starbases in my territory, or when the Thalans build ten economy starbases around my home planet's system. Neutral zones and boundaries would be awesome.
~ Cypher ~
@Cypher:
I don't know about 'easier'... at least from the program perspective.
What you describe though is the real issue with the current set up...
Imagine if a race came into earth's solar system and start building an influence star base near earth, just outside the moon's orbit. Silliness. It's our solar system, we live here, what do they think they're doing? It's like coastal boundaries and international waters.Do you honestly think if we had the capability we would just sit around and complain, or would we blow it out of the sky? I have to think we'd blow it up, unless the other race had lobbyists and alot of currency...
You should have the option to enforce a 'no fly zone' around your systems. Heck Star Trek had the nuetral zone in the 60's...
Combine open space with 'instant' starbase, just add water and you have a pretty good recipe for annoyance. I do hope it's addressed for GC3.
Or an assload of heavy ships ready to retaliate. Ccme to think of it, that's the only thing preventing you from destroying them now, isn't it?
You're both ignoring the fact that this is exactly what influence bases were designed to do - set up in enemy territory and turn it into your territory. Not to mention how hard borders would affect the colony rush; first civ to a system would get all the planets there, as their influence border would protect all the other planets until they were colonized whenever the system owner felt like it.
It would simply become another game mechanic allowing humans to exploit openings the AI couldn't really handle. For instance, using influence bases to force a corridor through enemy space.
Personally, I'm thinking more along the lines that the AI can't bring any of its MILITARY ships into our own space, unless we were allies or something. If someone that you didn't like just sent half of their navy into your country, would you honestly just sit their and watch it happen?
As for the whole colony rush thing, I think that colony ship should get passage through any borders no matter what. That'll make it so you can still colonize worlds, no matter what influence surrounds them.
I also think that even though official borders could destroy the purpose of an Influence starbase, I still believe that there is more good then bad that can come from having borders. If you are really in love with influence bases, then work your way into the AI's country, starting from just outside their territory, and keep chipping away at the AI every turn. Sure, it'll take alot longer, but at least you would still get to use the Influence bases.
I, like antracer, do hope that the situation is addressed in GalCiv3 or New Frontiers. Best Regards.
And I believe you would be ignoring the fact that borders and such are established, over time. Just because you get to a planet first doesn't mean you automatically get the whole system. Boundaries would be defined as they are now, by influence, and there would be occasions where you or a neighbor would have a planet in someone else's space. There would be an area arround that planet that would be yours, followed by a neutral band followed by the other races influence.
Want to get to that planet? Ask for an access treaty. If the other party agrees, you can send ships etc in. Want economic access, military access? You need a treaty. As it is now you make a freighter and send it off. It makes no difference if the Drengin don't want your crap... Your ship just goes where you send it and you get coin. So much better if you had to sign a treaty before you could trade. It would be quite a feat to be able to trade with every race. No treaty? sorry, but your planet is now isolated. Everything it is and does stays there until either A: You're let in or B: You declare war and make a hole. This is just how it is in the real world. You have to work with your neighbors, respect their territory and their markets and their right to exist.
All this talk of great AI and they can't handle this? CIV4 handles it quite nicely already. In fact, were you to take GC2's AI and CIV4's rules, you'd be prettyy much done. Open borders or closed borders isn't that tough, nor is 'yes, we can trade' or 'No, we can't'. It's no easier to exploit the AI there than in tech whoring or the colony rush or in any manner of ways that's done now.
Being able to traverse anywhere 'just because it's space' is the same as the neighborhood kids cutting across my lawn. It's my system, it's my lawn. I want a sign to put up near my planets that says 'keep off the grass'.
Great points, antracer. Couldn't agree with you more!
Then you don't understand New Frontiers.
New Frontiers is a mod. It by definition (in this case) does not have access to the source code, which would be necessary for the changes you're describing.
GC3 is another thing entirely and we're all free to offer up our viewpoints on that.
Personally, the biggest thing I want to see is a limit of 1 engine per ship (and therefore a redesign of the speed system).
Or, perhaps better yet, no "engine" components at all! Hmm...
I realize that it is a Mod - I just didn't know what kind of changes that would take. As for the rehaul of the speed system - yeah, I think you're right. It really doesn't make sense that a ship would have more than one drive on it. Nice point.
I like the idea of one engine per ship, but is it actually true to what's possible ???
What gets me is whether having two of the same engines would actually make a ship faster. Thrusters, sure two would be better than one... But a warp engine? Is it possible to have two seperate warp fields with one ship inside each?
I would say that the engines be part of the ship already, but that the technology of those engines change by level. I would also say that Thrusters be seperate, and limited to 'in system' ships only.
An example would be a heavy fighter vs the Carrier that brought it. The Carrier would have an engine that allows it to traverse systems as well as Thrusters for in system manuever and combat. The Heavy Fighter would have Thrusters only, and having two or three or seven would make it faster/more manueverable.
Engines would be on par with the 20+ sized drives currently in game whilst Thrusters would be 'x' for the fuel tank and 'y' for each Thruster. On a 30 point HF, a 5pt tank and two 3pt Thrusters would seem appropriate for a mid level ship. Base the fuel on a permonth basis before resupply, so you could have your HF out on patrol for 5 months before having to bring it in. As Tech goes up, maybe you can squeeze a 7pt tank in there, or go to a 4pt tank and add a third Thruster for more speed. Smaller ships like corvettes maybe in system bound, while Frigates and BattleShips could traverse the stars. Opens up possibilities of Troop carriers, landing craft... like that setup in the Aliens movie dropping planetside from orbit... That would be cool indeed.
As for the mod, it's a shame they won't allow access to the source code ala Civ4's SDK. It would make for some really interesting changes...
That's my argument.
Although-the way you've phrased it doesn't mesh with what I thought you were asking.
Rather, I would ask this question: Is it possible to generate two warp fields with one ship to any benefit whatsoever?
The answer is a solid no.
I've been thinking about this, and my solution thus far is to remove engine components entirely, and have "smaller" versions of the engines be simulated by adding minor miniaturization amounts to the subsequent engine techs. I think that this should be balanced out by setting a negative miniaturization modifier when each new engine (i.e. impulse, warp, hyperwarp) is unlocked-in addition to their +speed, obviously.
I haven't decided what speed values to give them as of yet, or how long the engine tree necessarily needs to be, though.
In any case, it beats the hell out of making 5 new hulls for every engine type.
The principle of the engines in this game is, iirc, to bend the space around them, bringing two points closer together.
Therefore you could argue that two engines would allow a ship to bend the space further than a singel engine would allow them to.
It would be simply a question of the amount of energy available to do so - therefore 2 engines = two reactors = double the energy available to bend spacetime.
Advanced engines would then allow you to bend the spacetime more effectively, either by rpoviding more energy in a smaller space or by using it better.
Of course it's just a game, so it is pretty futile arguing about that , but i do think that you can find a logical explanation for how the game works here.
A really good thing they could do is to implement in some sort of way the Zone of Control that Civilization III had, but to a further extent. In this way, Influence would actually be something worth building instead of being an almost useless building (unless you are going for an influence win or to bring in some extra BC). Your influence borders would be seen kind of as your controlled territory. Initially anyone could just pass through your territory, and a tech down the diplomacy line would eventually force everyone to be able to sign right of passage agreements. If right of passage is not signed and someone enters your influence sphere, you can tell them to leave or take whatever action you feel. An interesting thing here would be that the unit passing through would actually have to be 'spotted' be one of your units, so it would be possible still to sneak through or into others territory (or to launch surprise attacks). Since space in reality is incredibly vast, this would be something that would make sense.
This would make building influence starbases and improvements a slightly more important aspect of the game, strategically as well (especially if a civ decides to not go on a warpath conquer all strategy).
Of course if say you owned a planet right in the middle of Torian terrioty and had no sphere there at all, something would have to be done in those situations, so you could bring in units or what not.
So in other words, a huge hulled ship with 10 warp engines would be similar to the Star Trek U.S.S Voyager, whereas a ship with only 1 or none, would equate back to the good ole days of Kirk in the Enterprise NCC-1701.
Of course, too much speed is not really better, except for perhaps transports, since they would be fast but not near as powerful in weapons/defense. I do agree, probably 2 engines max, so you cannot travel 30 moves a turn. But then there is the Starbase super-ring crazy speed assist thing you can do, so I will just leave it to the developers.
I tend toward the opposite: I think there should NOT be choke points, dead man's land, boundaries, etc.. It's space. 3-dimensional, really really, big, and the vast majority of it empty, with a few sparse points to island-hop. No need to copy-cat other strategy games--the unique reality of space sells itself.
The whole Influence thing doesn't bother me, though. Look why Cuba is so important: it influences the entire Caribbean Sea. And that's significant, even if it's only a sea. Having a zone of influence in the middle of space is reasonable, but it's not the same thing as having influence over land, as in Civ.
It sounds like someone hasn't discovered the wonders of the UP vote that moves all ships out of their opponent's space when war is declared. Controlling the space around an enemy's planets means all their fleets are magically pushed out of your way, leaving only the orbital defenders between your victim and a horribly crushing genocide
Not to mention that all those fleets are pushed into easily predicted locations, setting them up for a convenient ambush. No more having to run all their ships down, they are delivered to you on a platter.
What kind of transports are you building? My current ones are at 46, and that's with only one hyperion shrinker. If I use a launch array, I can clear 100, easy. Of course, those are usually the special purpose transports, the more common version is around 10.
Also, survey vessels benefit from insane speed. Nothing beats betting 5 or 6 anomalies in one turn from the same ship, although by the time I can get these beasts the anomaly density isn't usually that high.
I actually agree with this, concerning 'engines' or 'drives' that propel a ship from system to system. That main engine may become more powerful, or more compact... But in essence, all of the components whether they be single or multiples really all adds up to being one big engine, or one big drive system. I like the idea of a % of the hull being engine or drive. I also like the idea that as tech increases, the speed increases and size of the components gets smaller. You would have to have definitive ship classes that could travel between systems, and those which would have to be transported there on cargo ships. (Now your talking actual logistics too... )
I also believe there needs to be a Thruster tech line, and they need to operate seperately. They need to be tied to a finite fuel source and they should be able to be applied to a hull in multiples affecting the speed.
As for techs, the games levels for engines or drives is fine. From an Ion engine @ speed +1, size 35% of hull to first level Warp @ speed +5, size 25% of hull... Maybe each level loses a % and adds a speed??? I'm sure it would be self evident where the values would fall once you matrixed it out.
@tetlytea: Yes, space is big. And we want control of it... All of it. Oh, and did we mention, it's OURS. That includes the space around our planets, the space between our planets and any space in between. We don't want you in it. You do not have the right to build starbases here, nor to patrol here. In fact, you're not welcome here at all. Every race has the right to set up a defensive perimeter, a zone of whatever you want to call it, influence or whatever. Between your influence and mine, there needs to be a place that is open. A buffer zone... A nuetral zone, where we can keep an eye on each other, a border.
It's not copying anything. It's the way it is. It's how that system is executed that sets it apart, that decides whether it copies anything or not.
It's very true you could not patrol this vastness of space. I am sure stealth technologies would exist that would allow incursions or raids into enemy space that were 'undetectable'... At least until it was too late. But we have all kinds of neat sensor technologies and space stations and fleets and drones to keep us apprised of your actions. We are diligent in our patrols, and I think we do a pretty good job of it. Do you think you can sneak in undetected and wipe out a colony without us finding out? Go ahead and try, it's what they invented war for.
What it all comes down to is simple... You're just mad because we won't let you travel in our space.
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