It is rare that players will use up all their capital ship slots in the game. More often than not frigates are better for cost, and eventually the fleet will fill up with only a modest number of caps. This leaves over half of the cap ship limit unused and unloved.
However, balancing starbases is tricky as is. If each system is allowed the same thing, then starbases have to be balanced as a moderate defensive unit. They can't be fleet crushing wonders AND litter your entire empire at the same time. They certainly can't do it for cheap, or players could never break the defensive lines for cost.
Starbases are massive structures. They're bigger than cap ships, have larger crews, and more advanced weaponry. Make them use up a cap ship slot to produce. This way, the structure made to turn the defensive tide has a hard limit. They can't just be spammed at every grav well, players have to decide where is the most important to defend.
Without the guarantee of having starbases everywhere, the individual structure can be enhanced to be cheaper, stronger, and deadlier at every turn. Or, it may simply allow 2 of them in a single grav well, if you can chance your other planets getting none.
It also means that the number of starbases is controlled by the tech curves in the game, instead of going directly from zero to everywhere.
Edit: Repeat post.
Hmm, I don't see my post. Attempt #2:
Sins doesn't have caps that raise with the empire's size. However, the caps that are in place exist ACROSS THE BOARD. Saying something won't work because there's a cap in one place is stupid. The hard limits are everywhere, so what really matters is that all the limits are in balance.
The most potent argument against the idea is thus:
Which is exactly what I think NEEDS to happen with starbases. A loaded starbase needs to stand out as a UNIQUE and POTENT obstacle to attackers. If potent starbases are allowed everywhere, planet cracking is going to be a turtle nightmare. If the fix is to make them expensive, then they won't be cost effective. Starbases NEED to be cost effective, because defensive units do not make the killing blows that end games. They're also vulnerable to mobility and are inflexible to countering strategies, more reason they can't be expensive.
If you want a massive, fleet crushing superweapon armed starbase, then you need a real restriction on how they get used. Making them expensive just ruins them. Making them take up fleet supply ruins your fleet, thus taking away from the major point of "Entrenchment"-- letting you hold your home while fighting abroad. However, given a REAL STRATEGIC match going on, capital ship crews are ALWAYS in ample supply. Players rarely research cap ships to max, or even close. There is little viable reason to max out your capital ships, and doing so is a great way to get crushed against real living players.
So why not put them to use? Starbases are massive military complexes. They may be self sustaining on supplies thanks to their immobility and long term construction, but there's no way in hell you're going to leave the most important bases in the empire in the hands of a goddam junior lieutenant. Maybe you'd leave him on the dipsy trade outpost in the middle of pirate asteroid nowhere. But the Holy Death Fortress of Chamya Prime demands a REAL command crew, just as a capital ship would.
What this means is that players are left with an option. Sure, they can get the generic starbase outpost for all their systems, the kind to ward off fledgling fleets and pirates. However, the monster bases capable of crushing fleets are sacred and limited, and thus must be carefully located for the maximum benefit. All this, using the existing cap ship slots that- given a proper game- rarely sees its limit due to necessity of frigates in building fleets.
(side note- you still have plenty of TACTICAL slots to turn any system into a danger zone, even with a small starbase. You don't need monster starbases everywhere, only at the most important points. All the more reason to make them special and unique!)
On the plus side, the limit on the big starbases means that they can be FAR more cost effective without drastically altering the game's balance. They can't be spammed without appropriate research, which sets a PACE on building them(pace is vital for balance!). All this is good news for starbases and for making defenses both viable and strategic.
On big maps, there will be a point where players have to decide between capital ships or more giant starbases. The power of a capital ship will have to be weighed against the power of a high powered starbase. Players will decide if they want the fleet versatility of a cap, or the home holding power of further starbase upgrades. I think this is better and simpler than having two independant limits, which would be an extra gameplay element that wouldn't add any strategy of substance.
I disaggre. Just because capital ships are frowned upon in MP doesn't mean that no one playing Sins, whether MP or SP, uses all of their capital ship slots. Having starbases use cap slots would just sideline capital ships even more.
I really like using capital ships
[quote who="Bobucles" reply
I think people use capital ships and i can even hit 6 in a good match it isn't that they are bad it's that at a certain level you repeat the same capital limiting the abilities. You only really need 6 ever. One of each. Maybe even 4 individual and 1 repeated.
Vasari example: I start with evactuator cap play for a while it doesn't die. I think about getting a second cap. Kortul devastator comes in then i continue to play. I have about 4 caps, 2 for defensive fleet (kortul devastator and skirantra carrier), 2 for offensive fleet (planet bombarding cap, jarrusul evactuator) The thing is why should i get a cap for my offensive fleet when it can be accomplished cheeper and better with a non cap. Take 1 cap say skirantra carrier off an offensive fleet. Replace with 3 carriers and its just as good. You normally only use 2. Using anymore is a waste mostly since it's cheaper and uses less supply to get frigates and cruisers. Thats all you need. Only 3 caps are worth while in the vasari arsenal. The colinizing ship (mostly for planet drain) the kortul devastator (main combat ship power surge) and the skirantra carrier (for the microphasing aura, makes it so fighters and bombers harder to kill) Otherwise the other 3 just don't have the abilities to do anything or can easily be substituted yet the only time these 3 caps get good is after level 5 because they need to max out an ability just to make it good.
The thing is caps are good to begin with. Decent in the middle while they level. But what happens after that they normally slowly decline to a shug where you get it only as a flagship. Once you lose a high level cap there's almost no reason to replace it mostly because it's dies to fast in battle because of focus fire. They are great for drawing fire not for actual fighting.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
