If the game needs big changes, the devs need to make big changes. Our job is to tell the dev what we feel needs changing, not try our hardest to give them only tiny changes so they don'T have much to do and then release a sub-par product.

First they told us they can't do massive changes anymore. second we dodn't need massive changes just some tweaks that will not be that hard to change. Thats what I'm saying we change them alot but by doing simpler things than what u guys are suggestiong, such as tweaking of stats. I said it wrong last time. I dodn't know about u guys but if u make Oak 99.99% reliable on pets to win u will have killed him. When I think of Oak I think of a guy who can lead his men to victory. When I think of erebus I think, his minions should do most fighting but he can sweep in and give his minions the boost they need to win. U see some people are trying to make the DG's into something their not which is wrong. U should look at playstyles and see which one reflects erebus's personality and than decide.

yay 8 assassins 4 with pets 4 without while we're at this lets make them all do the same amount of dmg same amount of health etc etc and tottally scrap the good ideas not given by Soccer194 then maybe the game will start heading in the right direction

Let's begin with the basics.

One,  I believe that it probably isn't wise to have everything balanced for 1v1; it will reduce the total number of options as well as disallowing truely unique general/assassin possibilities.

Two, we should probably stop referring to people, and instead refer only to ideas. For example, I should say something to the effect of the above, while not mentioning who stated the idea. This helps keep the discussion slightly less personal.

Three, I believe there are several significant problems with the current implementation of generals that wouldn't take much to change to give them slightly more flavor. First off, they need to start with their minions. Perhaps not a full allotment, but some of them. Second, the idols should aid the minions, and perhaps upgrade them. Perhaps each idol changes 2 minotaurs into minions of a different type. That way you always have plenty of minions, but can then customize your force. The minions need to do more damage, and the demigod needs to do less. This way it feels as if the minions are pulling the weight, not the demigod. This is perhaps the most important thing to convey the right 'feel.' The demigod's abilities can instead focus on the minions. For example, an aura that increases their move and attack speed, a ranged stun, something that turns enemies into more minions, things of that nature. Skills that build on the fact your minions are the major damage source.

Finally, the advantage a general has of being in many places at once, due to current system dynamics, is practically useless. Why would you want to put your minions elsewhere? Towers are too strong for them to really stealthily kill them, they can't cap flags, and they do very little damage to demigods. Something there needs to change, though what exactly is up for debate.

I think by focusing on some of these general concepts we should be able to give the generals the 'feel' of commanding their troops while not having to re-write a significant portion of the game.

OK, so if the thread ended with reply 107 I'd be perfectly happy.  It can't be conveyed better than that. 

Let's get specific as an example.  Some very rough ability ideas:  Erebus's Mist ability should do no damage but increase his minion's attack power and speed 25%, scaling up, and damaging him a bit less at high levels.  His batport should cause far less damage and pull all minions withing radius with him.  Bite damage should be nerfed - it is a debuff.  Potion should incluse minor Vampiric Aura at low levels.  Health and Mana are fine.

What are some other minion-specific abilities we can look at?

Yeah yeah yeah and on that same page they talk about how you can go and heal at your castle and how if you buy the game all your dreams will come true.  They point is who cares, they have said a lot of things.  They are trying their best to create a balanced game with an RTS element.  Also it is just funny when people refer to generals as assassins with units.   Fuck that, Assassins are just generals without units.  I think we should change the whole assassin gameplay I mean it is way too RTS because you get to see the whole map and the point and click too move is classic RTS.  Assassins should move with wasd instead and should have to aim their spells.  Anyways you get the point a whole other argument can be made for the game being too RTS and we can quote the feature page that hasn't been updated in like a year and gossip about it. 

I suppose the major question we should be asking is 'where should generals be?' Do we want them right on the front lines, actually within physical attacking range? Should they be more like the Torchbearer? Perhaps we should have both? For example, if we used the suggestions above, we would require that Erebus be on the front lines. All of those abilities are PBAoEs and melee attacks. This isn't a bad thing, but it it something to consider.

That aside, I /really/ like that version of mist, though I think it should have a debuff component as well, making it difficult for demigods to get out of it. I think you're spot on with the teleport, but perhaps it should also have increased range and deal no damage, making it more a way of rapidly redeploying as opposed to an escape/attack. Bite.... I don't know about bite. It fits the theme well, but it doesn't fit a general well. We may have to put some thought into that.

Now, let's think about how this would /play./ Early game, given today's minions, he'd have a difficult time. No AoE damage is a real issue, and he still wouldn't have much mana sustainability. He'd have better survivability with mist, which is probably a good thing, and his mobility would go up. His most common practice would probably be teleporting in and going mist instantly, preferably on top of an opposing demigod. This would give the debuff as well as moving all minions into position. Then he could teleport out to other hotspots as required.

The important question- is this what people want out of a general? Is this the kind of thing you would like to see?

Edit: as a reply to DatonKallandor

Excellent point on the siege archers, I'm not entirely sure how it slipped my mind. I know that I've tried that out before, but I seem to remember it failing for some reason.... oh well, back to testing it out. As for how the game started out.... the devs stated long ago that that vision of the game would be too difficult to balance, to difficult to integrate into a real whole. The question now is how far in that direction can we push while still maintaining some sort of similarity between generals and assassins. (Obviously, this is all how I see it)

Edit 2: More thoughts

Perhaps bite can be replaced with some sort of minion-specific ability, and /this/ could be what separates generals from assassins. Mind you, I have no idea what it could be, but it's a thought. Futhermore, I really do believe that minions should grow in strength as the demigod levels somehow, and that buying idols should not be the only way to increase their power. Whether or not it should be some generic 'stats' tree in the leveling section, or something more flavorful (a replacement for bite that isn't activated?) is a question for everyone.

You've never played an isometric RPG have you? The things you listed are hardly exclusive to RTS - they've been in some of the best, and old, RPGs. Your Strawmen won't get you far.

Err, no I did not. You claim that it's the same arguement, when it's actually not - we don't want Assassins changed because they work as advertised. They're a complete RPG experience - Generals however, are not a complete RTS experience.

So that begs the question:  How would one incorporate "complete RTS experience" Generals to Demigod in a balanced fashion, per above?

Edited to be less

Did you read 108?  My response. 

Here's an interesting idea: Why does there need to be a definite difference between Generals and Assassins? Why can't we get the full spectrum, with Demigods focues only on combat, mainly on combat and some buffs, a mix of both, mainly buffs and some combat, and almost just buffs with very little combat?

Think of Rook's Power of the Tower, it's a General-like ability. Same with Torch Bearer's Auras. Taking these things into account, Rook and Torch are half Generals, Half Assassins. So why not do away with the distinction entirely and design Demigods on an individual basis instead of trying to shoe-horn all of them into one style or another?

First off I said change alot but by doingg simpler things than a complete makeover because as was said before each demigod has a personality and their fighting style should fit it. 1602 assasins are fine as they are so noew we can try to balance generals by matching them off with an assasin 1v1. Every team should have just a good chance of winning if they get all assasins while their opponets get all generals. Though they'd prob do better with a mix it should be equal. Now I now we all want generals to win mainly winning by their minions pushing forth. SO plz read my earlier reply's to learn my ideas to change the gameplay but without giving devs so much work. Also someone mentioned what if they were all just demigods and their bwas no assasin or general, I think this might have some problems but would be better than making Oak Qot erebus and sedna into being a personality that they arn't. Now u people continously say I want generals to be assasins well please shut the **** up. IT is annoying to constantly read. I am sorry but it's really tikking me off. Maybe showing what wrong with my suggested ideas would be better than just shooting them down after the first 2 sentances.