Seeing as piracy and DRM are a hot topic on these boards, i thought this might spark an interesting conversation.
Mr. Kouroush Ghazi, the owner of the Tweak Guides website, has published an extensive article on PC game piracy, it's reasons, scale, and effects.
Give it a read, it's a well thought out, unbiased article.
Bullshit.
Do you pay any attention at all to reality while reading about all those game developers that are leaving the market? Yes, the actuality of piracy would be irrelevant to that fact, if it were a fact. Crytek wont be releasing PC only games anymore, the world is doomed! The PC game industry is expanding, not shrinking. It's irrelevant what one company does, there are thousands of developer studios. Most of them rapidly disappear and you never even hear about them. The market is flush with them to the point where only the cream of the crop can generally get something published.
You'd have a point, but it's simply not there. The only way they've made these is by lying. They were going by retail store statistics, ignoring digital distribution and online stores like Amazon, which last I heard was selling almost a quarter of all PC games in the USA all by itself. It's where I buy most of them now, finding anything but a major new release at Walmart is just too much effort.
But don't confuse refuting a claim with not having enough evidence. A refutation is a type of proof (a proof that something is wrong or erroneous), and therefore needs some type of evidence. Having no evidence at all is not a type of refutation.
1 : to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous
2 : to deny the truth or accuracy of
All hail Webster.
Some just can't admit when they had wrong thoughts before, or just envy the fact that they couldn't write a good article like that one. Many of the aborded issues are certainly close to the truth.
Oh no, I've been called pretentious, whatever shall I do...
It's basic math, you can add two and two when you want to, right? Crysis sells 1.5 million copies, the developers bitch about how poorly it did, claiming that console games like Halo 3 sold far more. They then blame it on piracy. Quote the numbers of video cards sold all you want, 1.5 doesn't get to 8 even if you add every pirated copy they claim. They'd need a 400% piracy rate to get anywhere near Halo 3, not a measly 85%. The PC game industry isn't suffering from piracy. They are suffering from delusions of grandeur.
I pay just a little attention to what I'm reading, and am pretentious for calling the industry on it's bullshit? People play video games, not graphics engines, there is nothing spectacular about Crysis beyond it's system requirements. Both sales and piracy numbers bear this fact out. It was exceptional in neither category, they expected exceptional sales numbers to go with their run of the mill FPS.
It comes down to this. Crytek is run by morons that seem to be under the impression that they're the only PC game developers on earth, that the other fifty first person shooters within a year of theirs don't fill the same needs. They're going to have to do it the old fashioned way and actually make something exceptional if they want it to sell like it's exceptional. Their alternative is to wish in one hand and shit in the other.
To be pretentious, you have to presume superiority. There is no genius required to add 1+1 and realize 10 isn't the answer. Any idiot could figure this out, I'm proof of that. If you haven't, you're either completely oblivious or in denial.
Next time go with asshole instead of pretentious.
@psychoak - great response. I concur.
From page 8:"The argument that removing DRM will result in a net increase in sales has no basis in fact based on the evidence at hand. Not only does gaming history show that unprotected games simply lead to more piracy, recent history also demonstrates clearly that simply removing DRM is not the answer to piracy. As we saw in the Scale of Piracy section, many popular games which have no intrusive DRM, such as Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Call of Duty 4 and World of Goo, also have some of the highest piracy rates in 2008. Indeed as I write this, the new Prince of Persia game was released yesterday for PC (December 10, 2008) with absolutely no DRM protection, and a quick look at torrents shows that the cracked version is available, and on two popular torrent links alone there are over 23,000 people downloading the game within the first 24 hours. The evidence is overwhelmingly clear: DRM does not cause piracy, piracy results in DRM."Admittedly, it's mostly comparing intrusive DRM to less offensive measures, but the Prince of Persia bit is pretty indicative, don't you think? Of course, if there is no DRM on it at all, why did he point out the cracked version is available?
Perhaps it is cyclical, are the games which are more popular more pirated, is their popularity at all connected to the developers stance on DRM? PC gaming seems to me to be a word of mouth/blog advertised industry, I can't really think of any major PC games ad campaigns except World of War Craft (and let’s not even discuss the ludicrousy of that piece of shit). That would indicate to me that the most popular games become popular because of the experience of players and reputations of the creators based on the experience of their past productions. Unless there is, such as is the case with Stardock, documentation to allow us a solid connection between the developers decision not to include DRM and their concern for the players experience we cannot rule out the possibility that DRM was excluded for the benefit of legitimate players. With the exception of World of Goo, which I've never heard of, the examples given are relatively well known and respected games. I think it's entirely probable that those games were pirated not because they were easy targets, but because they were in demand, I love Sins, but I admit it's not yet overwhelmingly known, looking at torrent sites, I can't find anything but one copy of patch 1.11 and that has only 19 seeders and 6 leechers. And when I used to play illegitimate games (my copy of Sins is legal) I never had any problem finding popular games, I've heard nothing but horror stories about blizzards DRM, but (if they ever get around to releasing it) I'm certain you'll find cracked versions of Starcraft II within a week of its release. I would assume there is a minor fluctuation in the percentage of piracy with the exclusion of DRM, but I’d guess in large the “losses” due to piracy are in the same relative margin for all games based on popularity.
Why do I keep getting karma for being a prick?
Sometimes toughlove is necessary to say the least.
I mean, just look at me.
You can dislike it all you want, but it's a fact of life. I've recently gone to a torrent community and asked for opinions on this very subject.
Almost 90% of the users reported that they would only purchase a game legally, if there was a multiplayer facet that they wanted access to - these people reported spending their money more on dvd movies and cd's.
I was actually surprised that a game needed a multiplayer component to be worth buying for so many people, personally I will do whatever I can to support a developer I like - even if it's only single player.
And trying before you buy DOES help, only this month I've bought:
AC/DC - Black IceGuns n' Roses - Chinese DemocracyD-A-D - Monster Philosophy (vinyl AND cd)
SOSA - Entrenchment (preorder)The Office (UK) - Seasons 1 + 2AvPAvP : RequiemThe Darkness - Platinum CollectionAC/DC - Highway To Hell (Completing my collection..)Valve Games Collection (20 games or so..)BioshockChildren of the Nile + Expansion (Sequel to Pharaoh, which I also own a legitimate copy of, two in fact, by an indie studio purchased via Impulse.)GTA IVThe Sandmen - SleepyheadD-A-D - Good Clean Family Entertainment You Can Trust
This has severely tapped out my available funds, and I don't expect to purchase much over the next couple of months.
However; I will still be following new releases, and listening to stuff before buying it. Be it via radio or other sources (including p2p'ing).
I'm not about to apologize for being realistic in this day and age. Piracy has always been around, from copying floppies, recording movies to VHS from the television, sharing VHS tapes with friends and family.. etc. It's always been here, it's just simpler than ever. Every year, the stream of music, tv, games and movies is increasing, but the amount of money people have to spend on these items remain pretty much constant. Please do keep that in mind.
Further more, I very rarely buy new things on the release date, as I have no desire to pay massive amounts of money for anything, I go bargain hunting well after things have been released. Is that also a crime?
Meh, I will keep purchasing my entertainment legally, and pirating as much as I feel is necessary. I will purchase items in my own time, and I don't mind waiting a year for the price of a movie I want to come down.
Hell, I'm not even going to buy many more movies until Blu-Ray becomes affordable, I get a television set that's HD compatible, and an actual Blu-Ray player. So it might be a while before I buy new movies again. I still buy older movies that aren't exactly optimized for hi-def. I am hopeful with regards to upscaling technology that has been released.
At any rate, if you can afford to trust customer and fan reviews of a game before making a purchase, feel free. I won't. Not any more. Particularly not after the spectacular disaster of GTAIV, which has completely devestated my belief in the public review process. From now on, I will never buy anything without having tried it first. The same is not true for my favorite bands though, they get purchased either way
In short, the clowns at EA and Take-Two (each company's stock is tanking despite record revenue) need to stop thinking OMG NEXT VIDEOGAME BLOCKBUSTER HERE'S $40 MILLION TO DEVELOP IT!!11 and start diversifying. The PC game market is PERFECT for well-made niche games, especially with the rise of digital distribution.Brad Wardell gets this, hence Stardock's success. It also helps that Stardock's games are pretty damn good.
BFrog, you can try to sugar coat your actions as much as you want.
Pirating may be a fact of life, but what does that have to do with anything?
You said I can dislike it all I want, thus I will.
What are you trying to prove to me?
Seeing as impluse is giving me download is invalid everytime after i reinstalled, im just gonna pirate sins im sick of dealing with a overly cumbersome system.
I'm certainly never going to do digital download again.
Hmm.. Surely you know about tech support? There is a forum for it as well as an email. Moreover Impulse is far from cumbersome. Additionally there is a server issue going on now. I bet you spent less than one heartbeat looking into solving the issue. Cretin punkass comments that are unwarranted are unacceptable.
On one hand, I definately agree with you. So don't get me wrong. But he does have a point; Digital distribution is inherently unstable and you will invariably and inevitably loose your investment, either because of issues like this, or because the company you bought it from tanks. Or even when global communications finally fall and the Post-Modern Dark Ages begin.
Granted, I'll have other things to do at that time, but that's beside the point. With my discs, I can always pop them in and start to play. Also, it sounds like he's already bought the game - can anyone really whine about him pirating the game, after he tried to get access to the products he paid for "lawfully" (without discussing the issues of legality)?
I'm sorry, but "there's issues with the servers at the moment" just doesn't cut it when I want to install my game here and now.
He still comes off as a sniveling child, though. But that's BESIDE the point.
I agree... hope that you have read the conclusion, specially these :
"Stop delaying releases by region. Releasing games earlier in some regions is probably the single biggest incentive for people to pirate a game and contribute to day-zero piracy."
Early Sins illegal copy on torrent site was mainly downloaded by European guy like me... now, i am happy, after a few month wait, i was able to buy the boxed version and game online...
A other note... since the use of impulse for update, Sins hit again in the torrent site... all 1.05 illegal version are dead now ( or almost )... but 1.1, 1.11, 1.12 are very active... a other reason is maybe sins being in the top 10 "game of the year" on several site...
If one day, i made a commercial game, it will be free... but with a 5$ month for online game... it seem to be the method for earn big money and being enough secure from pirate ( if what is wrote in the article is true )...
@Luckmann - I can understand his issues. Hell I have had them this past week but apparently not trying to get support first and or maybe doing a little homework while in the process then making scarily naive blanket statements on top of threat is really in bad form.
You are the one making insulting comments and I spent 5 hours googling a way to make it funtion properly. I'm glad to see that all you pirate haters will still spout your hate speech even if someone has bought the game and it isn't functioning as was intended.
Get off the high horse and remove the lips from the ass of stardock, I have just as much respect for them as the next guy, (I mean i bought their product and preordered entrencment) I like the way they do business but having to retry my download 7 times, uninstallation and reinstallation of impulse, and searching forums I was fed up with wasting my time.
And exactly what is naive about saying that having to redownload something I downloaded and already had 7 times only for it to not verify it. What would you call that? And I didn't make any threat I made a statement and it worked like a charm.
Hmm.. Contrary to your opinion I directed no insulting comment towards you. Based on what you posted I got the impression you did not try very hard to find out what the issue was with the servers then vented inappropriately like a child. There was about a dozen threads on the forums regarding the server issue and even a general forum message. They were not easy to miss at least in my case.
Additionally, having just as much respect for SD as the next guy, does not entail going into its proverbial home and telling them you are going to pilfer their stuff. Moreover "pirating" Sins is a sure way to lose your account and preorder for that matter. End of discussion.
I can see it is just as pointless to try and talk to you as it was 9 months ago, You believe that you are the shining light of justice in this world and can do no wrong. Sorry if a product i bought and paid for was not working as intended and the ICO servers being down or up would only have an effect if they used the same servers for impluse if you can show me proof thats the case then ok, but I saw these threads and only saw people wishing to play games online complaining.
Edit: and the game updated fine after it was installed so... the server problem doesn't make a whole lot of sense
I can understand the difficulties inherent in digital downloads, but when a company like Stardock usually offers an option for both digital download and retail-box, why not take that one (even if you pay a bit more) when you have concerns?
Yes, I know not every game has that option.
Boxes are your friend! I toss em of course, but I can't help myself. Paranoia I have in spades, sentimentality I seem to lack.
Tommy, have you ever tried actually contacting support? I've seen google searching and forum browsing, but no mention of contacting support. Stardock support is very quick to respond to things, anyone that keeps track of the forum can tell you they even jump on tech support posts in a rapid fashion. The Frog himself often starts the ball rolling personally.
I didnt it was 12am PST and I was frustrated and just wanted to play normal sins without the expansion. But that turned into a huge ordeal because I didn't backup sins and something went wrong with uninstallation I think because it was still located in the Stardock games folder and showed as still installed on add/remove programs.
I tried to uninstall it from there but it wouldn't work, so i figured it was hopeless at that point so I moved it and did the most hanus act imaginable on these forums. If it wasn't so late I probably would have tried to contact support but I wanted to play the game not sit around and wait for a email.
Well, i'm not impressed by your post either. You failed to show how issues raised in your post affect the conclusion of that article. I think they weren't mentioned in the article because author focused only on a relevant issues.
He didn't leave it out http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html
In other words, you weren't able to beat his arguments. When he responded to you, you kept sending random information to him without any arguments, and went on forums for a public support. Sucks to be you.
Not exactly. You should have said "Prime directive of Game publishers is making money".
You didn't read the article and you aren't on friendly terms with a common logic. Pirate's development cost is zero, developer's development cost is non-zero. So, obviously pirates will always win in a "competitive struggle" and developers will go bankrupt. And you didn't mention how pirates are pushing a game quality up.
argument mentioned in the article? Also, an example is wrong. It should be something like "If locks in real life were like DRM, all you'd have were a bunch of people that couldn't get into their houses, while locks photograph everyone entering the house." Then again, you do use the locks in real life so your actions prove that your argument is wrong.
Not "you" but "pirates".
Industry thinks that there is enough proof that pirates are guilty and they do make a decisions. If you don't want to prove anything to industry, just don't do it and never talk about DRM and piracy It's that simple Everyone will agree to disagree.
Sorry, but who are you to tell that? A scientist in the related fields? A psychiatrist? No? Then i wonder which opinion is bullshit...
Another Straw man argument mentioned in the article?
Anyway, life is essential and piracy isn't so such comparision is stupid. If there is no money, poverty will still exist in a barter system economy. You should have said "If everyone used a subsistence economy then there will be no poverty", and even that will be false because everyone will be equally povert by our standarts. Nice way to shoot yourself in the foot by making an argument that is so retarded that it remains retarded after several corrections!
Edit: Also, if you really want to pick a fight, I could always raise the argument that life is in no way essential.
Exactly. Sarcasm is not a valid argument, so you lose. No, i'm not interested in trolling so i don't want to discuss if life is essential or it isn't.
You give me far too much credit brother but given I hold a degree in justice, I'll take your comment as a compliment and validation of my training. Anyway, I'm glad to hear your update went as expected.
You know nothing about my academic background and professional activities but you completely dismissed my position trying a weak ass appeal to authority and yet you never question the original arguments validity. A serious logical error there my friend. For all you know I could hold several degrees, some certificates and maybe even have taught classes in the social sciences and be a practitioner of sociology & psychology dealing with matters of ethics, judgment and understanding daily - just sayin'...
I wonder who you are to say the original argument is valid?
OH RLY? I didn't said you're wrong. I said exactly what i said - i'm not sure which one is bullshit.
You, on the other hand, know nothing about the author of the article, his academic background and profession, and yet you claimed he's saying bullshit. Another example of a self-ownage!
Then again, instead of saying it's bullshit, you may have googled a phrase "locks keep honest people honest". It's such a common knowledge that it become a proverb.
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