lol trig

Brad, I think you've done Jinx an injustice here. I've seen him say numerous times that this is beta1, beta2 could be different, etc. The fact is, he has given many constructive comments on the only thing he COULD give it on: the current gameplay. Is it unfair to say "I think the current gameplay needs to go in this or that direction to become good/fun?"... That is simply an opinion...

Personally I tend to like the type of game that Jinx likes and so far Demigod does not seem to be going in the direction I expected after hearing your "Counterstrike of RTS" comment those many months ago. As Jinx says, the impact of actual "skill" seems to be lacking so far in beta2... It seems you guys are differentiating between "new players" and "experienced players"...but experience does not equal skill ...

Which is fine, perhaps you guys decided to make it appeal to a different crowd, and as publishers/developers that is your prerogative.

Personally as a developer (not of games),  I should have been slightly hesitant to pre-order a game with a 9 month dev cycle instead of the usual 18... But i've been a stardock fanboy for many years and so took the plunge... Slightly dissapointed in this product (so far) but not every game is for everyone.

Anyhow, enough about demigod. I'll be seeing you guys in the Elemental beta ...Quite excited about that project .

-Drexion

Well, I think we know where all the negativity really comes from and that is disappointment so far.  I mean I am not saying I am completely disappointed or that I like demigod any less but if any of you still don't understand where jinx and a lot of other people are coming from when they wonder why it isn't as good as dota you have to realize what was pretty much promised in the game description.  When it says inspired by dota people feel it should be similar to dota but better because it is new (it is very similar but definately not better yet I would say).  So people when they get the game are of course at first disappointed with what they see but the argument against them feeling disappointment is that "This isn't dota, it is its own game" doesn't really hold so much water because a bunch of people bought the game solely because it was associated with dota so I feel like to some degree you havee to at least compete with dota (this doesn't mean having a ton of heroes, and it is happening with game modes and maps).  I am just trying to summarize for some of you who don't really understand why people feel the way they do when they get demigod and are disappointed.  Probably as the beta goes on they will get more and more used to it and there won't be as many people like this but aas kestrel says if you are one of these people post what you can change.

Yeah I sort of just disapeared.

I came to the conclusion that it's futile.  The reasons are rather simple..

A year ago is when I started following Demigod.  I preordered within an HOUR of when it was availible.  I thought Demigod was going to be a great game.  This was back when Scathis was the lead developer.
Way back then we were all-but-promised a highly competitive game with lots tournaments and such.  Supcom was a pretty competitive tournament game.  It wasn't counterstrike or DotA level, but it was much much more so than your average game.  So I thought "oh, yeah this could be great".  I like the idea of dota, but I was never that crazy about DotA's execution.
I also had some trust in GPG.
Stardock becomes publisher.. Stardock isn't known for competitive games at all, but Frogboy even said "The counterstrike of RTS".  Well.. that's saying quite a lot, but okay.

Beta1 comes; potential, but lots of problems.  It's just an engine test.. well fine.  I played tons of games in it.  I was quite good.

Now Beta2.  I got bored of it quickly because it's hardly an improvement over beta1.
Oh sure, it has generals.  It has citadel upgrades.  It has more flags, maps,  But it's still the same core gameplay.  The problem is with how the basics is rather flawed.  If the game doesn't play well with a single demigod, it isn't going to become much better with more of them.

On top of this, what happened to that whole "white boxing"?  I though the gmae was being developed for years without art assets to be made fun before adding the models, animations, textures, effects?  I don't really see how this took place.  IF that was the case then skills would be better developed and such, and there would be better input.  IT seems like everything was made in the last few months and the white boxing was just "Okay I can click the ground and my box moves there.  Enemies come from portals.  I can click them to do damage and push.  It works!"  I hate to say that, because it's harsh, but it seems the case.

I have stopped posting any suggestions or feedback because I know it'll take all the effort just to make a mediocre casual game by May/April, let alone making a well developed timeless competitive game.  There is no chance of any suggetstions being implemented.  There is no chance of feedback being used to make the game require more precise input.  The game is going to be what it's going to be regardless of what the competitive community says.  They're just focusing on some balance things, making multiplayer work, and getting the single player done since that's what most of Stardocks current customer base wants.

It takes to much testing and reworking things to get them right.  This is why SC2 has had a like 2-3 year private beta consisting of many paid SC pro's.  It takes so much tweakign.

I thought stardock wanted Demigd to attract a different kind of gamer to Impulse and to Stardocks games.. So I thought they'd be sure it's right.  But it seems to be being made to appeal to their current customers.

And it's not like the game could be fixed after release with patching.  It has fundamental flaws.  It'd be like redoing the game after release like was done with Star Wars Galaxies.  Even if it's redoing things for the better, the people that bought and play the game would be used to a certain way.
It would be like adding a rocket launcher and first-person mode to Hello Kitty: Island Adventures.  It might bring the competitive players to it, but the people currently enjoying Hello Kitty: Island Adventures would get ticked off.
Or another example.. adding those riot shields to Counter Strike---It total changes the game.

Ke5trel,

I've heard that the game will be released in April (was already pushed back from its original release date) and that it is very unlikely to be pushed back further...If it was, i'd be the first to declare that a VERY good move.

Assuming it is really going to be released in April... Means that we have 3 months left or less? Meanwhile they have not yet finished multiplayer connectivity, single player mode, have not yet released the multiplayer game modes to the beta, balance isn't even close to being done... and many more things.

I would be highly surprised if any of the things you are "holding out for" actually get implemented before release... I hope i'm wrong there... Take terrain elements for example, if you mean actual "3d" terrain (ie: multiple levels to fight from, ramps, being able to hide behind trees/etc), I think that is an engine limitation... One I hated in SupCom and was really really hoping they would fix for Demigod . Or take Item upgradeability - Innociv made great suggestions many months ago in this area, I have no idea if they are working on this or not...I'd love it if they were, but you'd think they would give SOME indication that this was on the "future to-do list".

Frankly though, at this point they at stardock/gpg have already been GIVEN so many "good ideas" and "feedback" that now its really a matter of waiting to see if they implement some of it and then giving feedback on the implementation/etc.

Regarding us playing a game, i'm waiting for the multiplayer connectivity fix so I can play something more interesting than a 1v1 or 2v2... I'll probably take a few days to get back into practice but then sure, we can play a match if you want. Don't blame me if I pick Innociv and Jinx, get on ventrilo, and do regulus sync'd count-down sniping...sigh...

-Drexion

I think it's more that it feels it lacks precision, and it feels like it lacks the need of precision.

It is more strategy than everything else..  And even then, eh.

It's kind of like, it's not just the units, or the abilities.
Imagine if you took starcraft units and put them into another RTS engine.
You use the same damage, armor, movespeed, whether it's flying or ground, and input those into the engine.
You aren't going to have starcraft.  You'll just have a game that looks like it.  There is so much underneith the units that makes the game play well.

Hehe I just mentioned those 2 guys for kicks, since regulus is so broken with snipe coordination in larger games... We'll join some random 5v5 and party sometime soon, Ke5trel . My comment of "April release date and very unlikely to be pushed back further" was from a reliable source I shall not name... Fact is though, even if every beta tester wants it to be pushed back... there are cost constraints, etc... So who knows.

I'll go read up on your building-work-around post now, would be nice if it could be done that way... Ambush / map awareness is sorely lacking right now in Demigod... Regarding item upgrade functions, you'd think it would be easy right ... But wouldn't you think we would have some idea that it was coming if it was in the pipeline? Given how long ago Innociv made those great itemization suggestions, I'm not sure I hold any hope for that one...

-Drexion

To be fair to frogboy, Jinx asked for a refund in the first week and bitched that he couldn't get a full refund and said it was due to personal issues and not game quality.  Then the next week he dumped all over demigod saying it was not as good as dota. 

I disagree with his point, but can understand it.  What I don't understand is why he thinks a beta 7 months from release can't be changed and improved.  For me, I think this game is very good, but am disappointed by the RTS portion.  So, when I have time, I post my thoughts and hope stardock listens and improves the game.  So far with assassins, I feel they have listened and improved the game.  With them pushing back the release another 3 months, I think they are trying to make a great game here.  Give them a chance.  I think that is what frog was trying to say.

I sure hope so, I agree the 2v2 with humans are MUCH better than with computers but I still think it is a little slow but I am willing to accept that that is because games are small at the moment.  Only time will tell but in the mean time lets just hope.  Take the willingness to push the game back if it still needs work as a good omen for this game because as they have said they won't be pressured by sending the game out at a certain time but having an inferior product.  I think that says a lot for how much demigod can adapt and change and grow.

Yah we'll play soon

Snipe Coordination is broken, and it will be interesting to test it out in large games anyway.  I'm thinking 5 Regs can still lose, if the other team knows what's up and moves early.  Regs can kill but they can't really push compared to some others.  The ideal team might be some combo of Rooks, Oaks, and UB to supplement 3 snipers...Or just 5 Oaks...Seems like TB and Erebus will be out of the running against synched sniping but we'll see.

Edit: the 2b changelog is up, and it's a doozy

(slaps forehead)

Note to self not to let some of you guys participate in future Stardock betas.

In the GalCiv betas, I remember expressly talking about how unfun the first couple betas were.  There's still probably some posts somewhere.

Same for Sins of a Solar Empire.  In both cases, the games, to be candid, sucked up until the last month or two of development.

Even Sins Entrenchment (BETA), IMO, is NOT fun because of little things like the mines and the pacing. 

I guess I am still naive in thinking that by this point, we'd have some credibility.  I mean, sure, we've racked up years and years worth of game of the year awards on strategy games doing the exact same process and each and every time there's always a hard core group writing off the game in question because low and behold, the game isn't fun just like was mentioned it wouldn't be until the end.

And it's always by guys who have no experience in game development.  Slow Sins of a Solar Empire down by anoher 20% in its pacing and it's terrible.  Eliminate starbases from GalCiv and the game is boring and pointless.  Those are things that took hardly any time to implement.

I understand some of you have a lot of experience in competitive play.  So do I.  I played in PGL. I have been in my share of ladder tournaments with various games over the years. We have a pretty good idea of how we want Demigod to play. 

And I will say again, publicly what I've beens saying: Beta 1 would not be fun. Beta 2 would NOT be fun.  Not that I expect people to bother to remember that. Beta 1 = Engine test.  Beta 2 = Beta 1 + Internet Connectivity. This has been posted countless times.

It won't be until Beta 3 that the game starts to get fun. That's when the balance and tweaking will really start to come together.  Does that mean all you guys will like it? Probably not.  There are still people complaining that Sins of a Solar Empire isn't "4X" enough.  There are people who claim the GalCiv AI "sucks".  And there will be people saying that Demigod should have recipes and detailed LOS.   

I'm sure no matter how many times we say Elemental Beta 1 and Beta 2 won't be fun there will be some core group of people complaining that the game is doomed to suck.

But watching people trying to judge Demigod at this stage is ridiculous and makes the case developers always make to me when we're at conferences: "Brad, you're nuts to let gamers into your betas so early, too many gamers are too stupid to understand that the betas are usually nothing like the final game."  I'm not saying that anyone here is stupid, but there are definitely some reading comprehension problems.

ty for all your hard work, I dodn't no about anyone else but i deeply enjoyed the beta experience and how u have tried to keep up with are concerns, frantics, and thousands of questions. As I said in another post demigod was the best beta expiernce I've ever had, and also the most communication between devs and players. Not to diss other companies that still make awesome games but just dodn't keep with us players such as blizzard's sc2. Even though I still think sc2 is going to be a kick ass game because of what I've seen so far and what I've seen with blizzard's other rts's. What makes their games so good is because they wait a while to make a game and because of that it kicks ass so dodn't feel pressured to make stuff quickly take your mtime. Also i'm sry for bugging u about making beta 2 come out when it did and pressing u for information.