It's time to bring the best space MMO ever to the best space RTS ever...
First question: is anyone else already working on something like this? If so what have you done so far? Would you like to collaborate?
Now I know that a game as complex as Eve cannot be fully incorporated into Sins... I just want to take the best elements and come up with a good mix.
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I first want to go over the various aspects of Eve and hash out what we can and can't do in Sins.
I want to compile lists of:
I'll compile this info here and expand to separate threads only if necessary.
I'd like to get community feedback first.
So? I know there must be at least a few former or current Eve players here.
He means the process of creating an in-depth character, from the sounds of it.
Also, on the concept of ship toughness, I think it should be like how it is in the game, with ships have strong armour and shields, and a ships have trouble having higher class ships (i.e. in the actual EVE, is takes around 6+ light/medium frigates to take out a destroyer), but a ships being used correctly can take out ships out of it's class (in one case I was in a 3 frigate team, in which we took out 3 somewhat poorly equipped Caldari cruisers). Also I was thinking that capital ships should be very expensive and powerful, like in EVE.
I mean thte pointless boredom
I fail to see how the game is boring, and I also fail to see why that is relevant to the mod. I honestly don't care if you didn't like it.
Excellent, someone's looking to bring the tacticle spreadsheet simulator to Sins.
Now if you'll excuse me I've got to get my `thron on
I don't get it.
Just play.... EVE Online?
You can already amass fleets and do battle with eachother... this makes no sense.
Unless... the people supporting this are incapable of founding a corporation that has a lifespan of more than two weeks.
Burn!
Maybe because EVE Online has a monthly fee, and sometimes you just want to blow stuff up? In EVE, losing ships costs you $$$. Here, not so much.
any update on this mod i dont want to see it throw out the window.
also if you need help with ship stats and what not i will be able to help.
I'm working on an Amarr ship list, will probably have that up soon (tonigh hopefully). And Itharus, that is a completely unnecessary post. Can we stop all of this crap with "why are you making an EVE mod?" crap. Don't like it, go away.
im actualy looking forward too this loved the ships in eve cant wait too see it i just had issues playing eve namely the corp i founded some other corp put like a huge bounty on us
keep up the awesome work. did you figure out how to bring balance to the titans and all that yet?
I Think you will be best with making the models yourself. The EVE ones are too detailed and that isn't needed. One issue I see with making models yourself is I suppose you will need to texture them yourself. Can you even make similar ships? if you make a model that is like a Titan then can you use it? as it will look very similar? you wanna check this.
I think I will attempt to model one of these suckers soon, if I produce anything other then dribble I will post it in the forums here.
PS. If you intend this mod to work in-line with the default races, could I suggest NOT over powering everything like 100+ damage for wave on half the ships etc.. Otherwise whats the point other then to laugh as you titan takes on the entire TEC/Vasari/Avant amarda
BIGGER LIST
Some things we should keep in mind: Dreadnought murders Titan in 1v1. so they can be the same class, just Titan will be bigger. Titan should thus have a ridiculous amount of utility, as suggested before. Titans should be built with the list of capitals.
Let's keep in mind that it is going to be impossible to completely integrate without keeping it balanced (ie: every race will have carrier cruisers, while caldari do not in the game). For simplicity, just use T1 names, and assume T2 is achieved through the research trees. Some classes will not exactly coincide with the class they take in EVE, but 90%+ will. The common classes should be met for balance.
Construction Frigates Amarr Tormentor, Caldari Bantam, Gallente Navitas, Minmatar Burst
Frigates
Scout Vessels Amarr Executioner, Caldari Condor, Gallente Atron, Minmatar Slasher. These are the fastest T1 ships in EVE, as so is this class of ship in SoaSE.
Light Frigates Amarr Crucifier, Caldari Griffin, Gallente Maulus, Minmatar Vigil. These are the 'electronic warfare' frigates in EVE. In SoaSE, Light frigates are early throw-aways, but can eventually turn into 'antimatter warfare' frigates. It makes sense to a degree.
Long Range Assault Frigates Amarr Coercer, Caldari Cormorant, Gallente Catalyst, Minmatar Thrasher. These are the EVE destroyers, all being good for killing other frigates. That's pretty much what the SoaSE assault frigates are good for. These tend to have 1 less non-high slot than the biggest frigate. Their bonus is primarily their range in EVE, anyways.
Alternative Ranged Missile OR Siege Frigates Amarr Inquisitor, Caldari Kestrel, Gallente Tristan, Minmatar Breacher. I know the missiles=LRF in SoaSE mostly, but they are also the anti-frigate frigates... which is what destroyers are in EVE. Instead, they are either a Siege Frigate now, or an alternative long range frigate. I prefer them as an alternative long range frigate, because siege frigates in SoaSE just seem too weird to me.
Heavy Frigates Amarr Punisher, Caldari Merlin, Gallente Incursus, Minmatar Rifter. All very durable because of good frigate tank with frigate radius and frigate speed. They can easily take down fighters, but will have a harder time than a LRAF taking down a Scout Vessel or Light Frigate (but still should win). This is because fighters in EVE are unmanned, and these are less clumsy than LRAFs.
Colony Frigates Amarr Magnate, Caldari Heron, Gallente Imicus, Minmatar Probe. In Eve, these have the highest base cargo capacity, with astrometric abilities. We can translate that into good at colonization (where we go to on the planet!?) and figuring the workings of neutral facilities (How it work!?) The highest base cargo capacity works with colonizing, and the astrometrics works a little with colonizing, but mostly for that neutral facility employment.
Cruisers
Carrier Cruisers Amarr Arbitrator, Caldari Ospray, Gallente Vexor, Minmatar Bellicose. While there is technically only 3 skill levels for the cruisers, there are practically 4 tiers for the cruisers. Vexor would be the most durable cruiser with the most drones, taking up the most fleet. Arbitrator would have the exact same drone amount and capabilities, but with slightly less durability, thus taking slightly less fleet capacity. Bellicose would be roughly the same durability as the Arbitrator, but with less drones, thus taking even less fleet capacity (like the TEC/Vasari carriers). Finally, the Ospray would essentially be like carriers before the SoaSE carrier buff, low fleet cost, low durability, low fighter amount.
Support Cruisers 1 (defensive) Amarr Augoror, Caldari Blackbird, Gallente Exequror, Minmatar Scythe. The Augoror would specialize in armor repair; the blackbird in momentarily disabling abilities/weapons of up to 6 or 8 targets; the Exequror in armor repair; the Scythe in a very gimpy shield/armor repair mix. I know the scythe is something else in EVE. See italicised paragraph at top.
Support Cruisers 2 (offensive) Amarr Omen, Caldari Caracal, Gallente Celestis, Minmatar Stabber. It seems the Stabber, Caracal ad Omen are out of place here, but Vexor was rightly made a carrier and these three are attack ships without a great role in EVE Online. We can make what they do good translate into offensive buffs in SoaSE. This is probably where we're stretching it the most. Omen increases DPS of nearby ships and be upgraded to decrease Antimatter ability usage of one ship. Caracal increases DPS of nearby ships (less than omen) and be upgraded to provide a certain % shield increase within a radius (balances less than omen DPS help). Celestis would be kind of like Blackbird but more so like the disorientation ability of the Advent Star base Transcendia (not as many disables ships though) and be upgraded for a longer duration. Stabber increases DPS of nearby ships (less than omen) and be upgraded to provide a speed boost for nearby allies (balance less than omen DPS help).
Heavy Cruisers Amarr Maller, Caldari Moa, Gallente Thorax, Minmatar Rupture. These will be the most cost effective in among the Heavy/Battle/Heavy Battle Cruisers. Therefore, for the most common multiplayer games. Should someone go to Cruiser level, they will likely spam these as their choice. In the event of stall games, People would likely go to Battle/Heavy Battlecruisers.
Battlecruisers Amarr Prophecy, Caldari Ferox, Gallente Brutix, Minmatar Cyclone. Good cost effectiveness for combat vessels, but less so than Heavy cruisers. They are are good Fleet effectiveness, but not as good as Heavy Battlecruisers.
Heavy Battlecruisers Amarr Harbinger, Caldari Drake, Gallente Myrmidon, Minmatar Hurricane. The cost effectiveness is not bad, but not as good as Battlecruisers and a bit further away from Heavy Cruisers. They, however, are the most Fleet cost effective of the 3.
Capitals
Anti-SubCap Battleships Amarr Armageddon, Caldari Scorpion, Gallente Megathron, Minmatar Typhoon. Although the Carriers and Motherships are anti-sub cap, these are capitals that will also fill this role, as well as other standard capital roles, while being able to get out better than the rest. The Armageddon has decent drones to support kill sub-capitals, generally equips pulse, thus it's damage type being effective against most all classes and has decent battleship speed. The Scoprion can be given massive disorientation or disabling along with an exceptional tank combined with average battleship speed for easy escape, an attribute of this class of capital ship. These qualities also make it great anti-sub capital. Megathron has tracking help in EVE Online, so it's damage type would be greaty increased in effectiveness in SoaSE. It has good speed and proper suppliment of drones, just like the Armageddon, for anti-subcapital behavior. The Typhoon, this is easy... you should know. Best capital ship velocity, maneuverability, good drone capacity. There is a common fit where this thing flings around like an interceptor. It could perhaps act a lot like the Antorak Marauder.
General Battleships Amarr Abaddon, Caldari Raven, Gallente Hyperion, Minmatar Tempest. Hyperion is faster than Megathron, but with less drones, less tracking, and thus less anti-subcapability. It's speed would be primarily used for coming up on other caps and blasting holes in them. The Raven could be given Fair damage with nice long range and a shield tank. The Tempest is just an overall good-speed, "omg there is a tempest next to me" type of ship. The Abaddon blows holes in you like a Hyperion, but has a bit more effective HP!
Other Specializing Battleships Amarr Apocalypse, Caldari Rohk, Gallente Dominix, Minmatar Maelstrom. Apocalypse and Rohk come with ranged damage and good tanks. Dominix is a battleship-agile drone carrier with supporting turrets and a fair tank. The Maelstrom comes with great damage at a moderate range and some great shield regenerative abilities.
Carriers Amarr Archon, Caldari Chimera, Gallente Thanatos, Minmatar Nidhoggur. Let's not gimp the Minmatar just for the lulz. Just keep their carriers about the same. Archon Armor, Chimera Shield, Gallente + fighter DPS, Nidhoggur speed + perhaps slightly better capital turreting & bombing?
Motherships Amarr Aeon, Caldari Wyvern, Gallente Nyx, Minmatar Hel. Same as last. A good way to keep both balanced is cost/fleet cost. Maybe both can colonize with bonuses, just a mothership is more fleet cost effective for combat. To balance this, so the first thing everyone builds isn't a Mothership, is it possible to only allow Mothership building after a carrier is already built? Or it could be tied into the Tech Tree.
Dreadnoughts Amarr Revelation, Caldari Phoenix, Gallente Moros, Minmatar Naglfar. They hit REALLY hard, they tank REALLY hard, they don't do MUCH else. emphasis on much. If we're allowed to pull stuff around with our caps, they would have the most limited ability to do so.
Titans Amarr Avatar, Caldari Leviathan, Gallente Erebus, Minmatar Ragnarok. They hit and tank almost as hard as dreads, and perhaps harder until they siege if the dreads do siege. They should be given the tons of abilities that may be associated with stations. Quick Repair, Shield regeneration, Antimatter restore, Production, Ship hiding inside even? The ability to move ships with them! A lot of stuff here.
Trade Vessels Amarr Bestower, Caldari Badger(mkII), Gallente Iteron(mkV), Minmatar Mammoth.
Refining Ships We can either just give them all Hulks or we can do something else more creative. Two races, Caldari and Gallente, could act just like the advent, exchanging their trade vessels to be refit and operate like Mining Barges. For Amarr and Minmatar, however, we have other industrials for seperate facilities to use. Amarr Sigil, Minmatar Horde.
the titans should be given a doomsday device that does aoe dmg and hurts friendly and non friendly ships. but to balance it make the dd on a 1hr timer and really high in resource usage. also make it so the titan cannot leave that planet after dding for 10-15mins.(iff possible) instead of storing and ships and maybe building give the titan a jump bridge ability if so can be implamented.
as for other things that should be added would be a sov system (beef up the culture system) pos.(since everyone loves pos ops.) and jump bridges and cyno jumping for capitals (since everyone loves hot dropping) and even cyno jammers when a system reachs its sov 3 state.
Here is a Amarr Titan Avatar I put together from the Eve game. I can easily remake this model and texture it in time but for now I have just made a whole new Amarr Race and added in the first super ship. Has a few texture issues but I doubt I can use it full time wise, only played with it for a bit of learning on howto resolve-do things in the Mod Tool etc..
Or (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=545864)
To calculate cost, I calculated total cost given the materials. I then averaged Tritanium and Pyerite together, Pyerite being 4 Trits. Mexallon I used as an indicator for Credit costs. The combination of Isogen, Zydrine and Megacyte in total isk cost was used to determin Crystal weight. The result is Amarr primarily Metal with Credit cost and little crystal cost. Caldari and Minmatar tie in highest crystal cost, but diverge in metal and credit. Gallente cost the most in credits, least in metal and a bit less than Caldari/Minmatar in crystal.
I am going to delete this list for now, leave the above information, and post the most complete list with my next post, whenever that is.
This Titan looks awesome! This mod looks very promising. Eve from another perspective. ^^
Love it, even though Eve can look pretty much the same when scrolling out. Of course without the ability to use every ship.
Good work! If I knew anything about modding I'd gladly help. But then again I guess I'll be just watching the progress.
Well I have played Eve but I don't know enough about all the eve stuff to go fiddling with special abilities on my own so ill just use that info above and provided in this thread for abilities and ship cost/stats. Cheers Purdyaw, just be sure its fairly balanced and not ridiculously overpowering to the other default races, but so far those all look like good stats to start with.
I'll see if I can setup some more, but I'm going to guess that I will need to make the models/textures myself since CCP doesn't want us using them atm
PS. Could you estimate the ship size as well? For reference that Titan has a bounding box of 1000, the TechBattleship has 414 while the small TechAntiFighter ship has 36
Well the the Titan is 155,000,000 cubic meters in volume. The Apocalypse, which is undoubtedly longer than most SoaSE battleships, is 517,500 cubic meters. The Apocalypse is approximately '2 miles long,' as far as I know. I remember specifically that quote being about the Apoc and 2 miles, no kilometers. Also, the volume of the EVE Online ships never quite match up, but they do have special technology where they can simulate more 3 dimensional volume per actual 3 dimension volume. It's described in some of the infoboxes for the purchasable cans.
We can assume that because the Apocalypse and Avatar are both Amarrian, they will both have the same extra-spatial technology per amount of space the ship takes. So the volumes for both ships, with respect to dimensions will be proportional.
Apocalypse Dimensions: 2 mi (3.22 km) Length X 0.96 mi (1.55 km) Height X 0.65 mi (1.05 km) Width
The Avatar seems to be roughly the same dimension of the Apocalypse, with a funny butt. Anyways, if we just find the square root of their total technically modified volume, we can use that numbers direct relation to find the approximate length of the Avatar.
square root (155000000) = 12450. square root (517500) = 719. 12450/719 ~= 17.3.
Go here, http://www.eve-files.com/media/12/eve_chart-rmr.jpg . When I try to line up a bunch of apocalypse with my fingers, I come right around 16 times... which means perhaps the Titan's non length dimensions are a bit more compared to the Apocalypse. So lets assume The Avatar is about 16 times longer than the Apoc. Let us assume that the Apoc is as long as the longest capital in SoaSE.
The Avatar is roughly 33 mi (53 km) long. The Kol or Akkan look pretty long. Make the Avatar about 16 times longer than them.
Also, if bounding box has any relation to volume, I'd make the Avatar about 10,000.
That would make it bigger then the planets!, I think we will need to re-evaluate things. I don't think its practical having a ship that takes up half the screen in size even if that is its true dimensions. Thats one thing I didn't like about other mods and there superships, there isn't a need for it so we may need to scale down the larger ships to some ratio perhaps using some statistical scaling that works well.
PS. I may be able to look into 16x larger then Kol etc, thought I dunno if that will be doing the gameplay any justice.
SoaSE's planets are kind of small, it's a bit weird. Just go by the 16* length if that metric prevents craziness? Although, I think a kol 16 times longer will be longer than a planet... heh. Just try to make it dwarf caps SoaSE caps but still be smaller than planets, significantly. They aren't meant to really compete with planets in size. Merely, they are massive enough that if close enough, they would create their own pull on oceans ect.
Make them about as long as a vasari fleet is wide when maxed out? Don't know where you'll find the balance, just try it out and post pics.
You can get away with Titan being 3x as large as a BS for SINS purposes, a MOM being 2.5x as large as a BS, Carrier/Dread 2x BS size, then BC 2/3 of a BS, cruiser 1/3 of a BS and frigates 1/8 of a BS. You really don't want -and we in 7DS found this out- something like the Eclipse StarDestroyer phase jumping into a grav-well, hitting a planet and crashing the game.
With massive ships also comes movement issues and some really strange looking stacking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3IbkYeDWuQ
I'd say Mom times 2 and Titans times 3.5, or somewhere around there. But, yeah... a scale around there would be best. Anyways, here is list I went at great lengths to balance. The destroyers are greatest, but not quit as far from frigates as they are actually in EVE. They will fill the same role with the same effectiveness, though... that's what we're trying to achieve, anyways; the same feeling.
Just to reiterate, I went at great lengths to weight metal with tritanium and pyerite, crystal with isogen, noxcium, zydrine and megacyte, and credits with mexallon. Typically, I just found metal with combined ISK cost of [(Tritanium+Pyerite)/4/(total mineral cost in ISK)]*(wanted base cost of class). I did the same thing for Crystal the isogen, noxcium, zydrine and megacyte. Sometimes I arbitrarily divided by 6, 8 or 12 instead of 4 for an entire class because of the unreasonable crystal costs. I don't directly find credits with mexallon, but I just subtract (Metal*2.5+Crystal*4) from the total wanted cost for the class and the remainder is the credit cost. List posted to latest post with updated information.
looks awesome so far guys. the avatar pic is sexy do you have any pics of the other titans or even a nyx if they are done yet. also the avatar needs its signature face and opend mouth
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