Hi guys, just a note where we're at. It doesn't look like we're going to have the beta ready in time for Thanksgiving. It's pretty close but even if we made it by Wednesday, with so many people off for Thanksgiving, it's just not one of those things we would feel good about putting up and leaving. We hopefully will have it the following week.
Now, that said, let's talk about some of the stuff the team at Gas Powered Games is working on as well as things we're contemplating.
First, there's a lot of new purchasable items in the game. That said, one type of item we're contemplating are a series of rings that players can purchase that are particularly effective against specific Demigods.
For instance, let's say there's a Demigod who does a lot of stun-based spells. There would be rings that players can purchase that can greatly diminish that effect. Similarly, there are rings that do specific damage against particular Demigods. This way, players who are somewhat skilled can equip their Demigods up to go against their specific opponents.
We're still mulling this over but we'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Another concept we're contemplating on implementing are active flags. That is, if you capture a flag, that flag may give you a power you can make use of that would mostly take the form of building a special type of tower that would further magnify the effect of that flag. Other flags with different powers may make their way in based on time/budget but the idea here is that capturing flags wouldn't just give you a passive bonus to your team but also an active power you can make use of on the map tactically.
OK, thanks for the quick response. I like the idea that tactical skill comes more into play when facing off against other DGs. A few more questions when you have a moment:
1. Does it take strategic skill to obtain the rings? As in, am I gonna have a Ring at about the same time as a more skilled opponent, or is the gap going to be significant?
2. Would the Rings be active or passive in their buff/debuffs? I'm thinking it would be interesting if the Rings were (expensive but not prohibitively) single-use items or had extreme cooldowns and cast spell for 15 seconds or so.
At this point I'm sorta envisioning Rings as a target-specific 1b Bestial Fury, where two UBs face off and timing your Fury cast is essential if you want to come out on top. Only it becomes complex because if you have the wrong ring (or no ring) then you had better just run. On that note, if this is implemented, or even if we keep some of the massive damage buffs we have now, we need much, much more obvious signals to let you know that you need to run, right now, or when I catch you I will inflict 24k damage per hit...2d Auras a la WCIII?
See, the trouble is that in this scenario, you're advocating effectively forcing people to play as different Demigods, just because someone else already took that Demigod. That is a sucky, sucky reason to not play your favourite DG.
The thing is that here, this is already an inherent advantage. You don't need to be able to buy an Aurora that does 3x damage to Mantis to make this the case.
Additionally, there are some strategies where a dual team has the advantage, here I'm mainly thinking fast Jester.
OTOH, as previously mentioned and both team's skill being equal - a traditionally well-balanced team game will almost always give an advantage to the team that diversifies.
Im 100% ok with those Rins item / active flags.
I've thought about it again, if you really want to make it skillful there shouldn't be 8 items which gives a buff versus a specific demigod but Items which gives a temporal buff vs exactly 1 of your enemies when some conditions are met. For Example the next guy who casts a spell on you becomes your "Archenemy" and everytime he casts a spell on you he gets 500 Damage. Then there could be an "Revenge" Item which lets you deal more damage vs the guy who last killed you after you bought that item.
After 3 Minutes (just an example) the effect would wear off and the next guy who triggers it becomes the new archenemy. (having it as consumable would work as well of course)
That would be items which really need skill to take advantage or to defend vs them (that is swapping lanes and avoiding him or not casting skills on him etc.). A visual clue for that would be good I think, like a debuff icon that you got marked or an audio message or whatever.
Having 2-3 Items like that (maybe with better conditions) would add a lot more skill than an "Anti-Oak-Ring"
I rekon that TheBigOne hit it right on the head. Although its Terran not Terra.
The only thing i disagree with in his post is the tem that allows you to sell with less penalty or repick skills. In my opinion if you have to repick skills and rebuy items then thats because you built your demigod badly.
Yes, Yes and more Yes.
Frogboy,
It's possible to make items conuter certain demigods and widen the gap in skill levels without just upping stats vs specific Deimgods.
Items that reduce stun time or reduce the lengths of slow would counter frost TB while resistance to spells would counter fire TB.
Items that act similarly to Eye of Skadi would be very strong against many Generals or caster built TB and Regulus.
These kinds of items add strategic depth without reducing the counters into a rock-paper-scisors system.'
this.
Ok guys are you all complete idiots?? The rings against Demigods are a must for this game. Every great RTS has a counter so this is a great idea to balance the playing field. And the reason most of RPG cry babies don’t like is you don’t want to use your mind like an RTS player you want one over powered attack like ice stun so man up girls. On the note of the towers transforming to structures I think this is the best idea to date we need more flags for map control and the player that controls the most should win. I would like to a portal, arrow tower, unique creep, special power (meter some kind of game ender flag that pops in like 10 min in) flags as most games should not last longer than 20min. I know the hate replies will start to this post but you babies need to understand that to balance this game there must be a counter to each Demigod so deal with it. Frog boy great post and I glad to see you head is the game.
I like your Ring Of The Crucifix example. I can definitely warm up to the overall concept *IF* these items are unique and part of a completely random pool on a per play basis. If they are not, then I would definitely prefer items that bestow buffs or penalties on a general 'class' basis - by category of ability than by specific name. In that latter instance, Ring Of The Crucifix might offer protection versus the Dead and Spirits wielded by The Oak and The Vampire Lord, but not limited to them. As Annatar11 stated, setting up the logic for the sense of an item is preferable to making something function on a more specialized "because" basis.
Preferable
Protection Versus Stun(decreased duration/chance of stun, paralysis, and freeze abilities; or % chance to ignore effect)Protection Versus Decay(decreased damage from disease and death abilities)Protection Versus Fire(decreased damage from fire abilities)
Such items have the real potential to be more applicable versus or in the hands of certain Demigods over others, yet can be so without being rigidly/blatantly forged to be so. Items that curtail Thorn effects and Life Drain effects have similar potential in light of enemy item purchases that grant such as well.
I would add that any specific target item should apply its effects only to the wielder - this preserves the newfound battlefield role of the user versus its target. Exerting auras means bestowing beneficial countering effects to all around, which would defeat the purpose of the item being unique & singular and therefore limited. You would not want a single item user to apply its effects to every ally around him - that would be too useful, unless the effects were more subtle/minor in nature.
Generally I speak of protections rather than enhancements simply because such things strike me as safer to ponder and weigh than substantial boosts to damage and the like... maybe a bit easier to judge right now. After all, toss in too many percentages and multipliers and you may wind up delivering 10s of thousands of points of damage per hit (!).
You *could* administer effects to categories of Demigod by specific Demigod as you alluded to above in your code possibilities Frogboy, which would serve the same end as applying more general effects to those who fall under the classification of those entities who are indeed affected by the item. You might say what is the difference... the entire point of a game is the illusion of accomplishment. Key to the illusion is perception. If my perception is that 'X' item is simply a gimmick lever by which 'Z' character can be defeated, the illusion of accomplishment suffers - I will simply have fulfilled a prescribed task, much like a linear puzzle. Demigod is dynamic and action-packed, not a puzzle to be solved with the correct purchase. I want to play this game, and item equipping is just a part of that equation.
So I guess I sum up by supporting more specialized items *if* they are unique and randomly assorted along with every other item, but prefer simply category-based items that can serve much the same purpose without being exclusive.
.
A Vampire Lord - I suspect - who stocks up on additional Life Drain items would be withering, unless an enemy confronts him with Grail Armour that cuts in half any enemy Life Drain ability %. The effect of having specific uses against specific Demigods & entities is there without having to be specific about the target... it just follows logically.
I`d certainly be willing to try what you come up with - the point of a Beta (!). You folks have had good judgement so far (!)... . Thanks for listening; btw, this and Sins Of A Solar Empire have been the best betas I`ve ever been in.
I really like the Revenge item concept. Makes you pay attention to the scum who last killed you, adds incentive to abandon team strategy (!...) for the sake of a head-hunt.
Hello Idiot Baby,
The counter to each Demigod is a combination of elements that amounts to good playing. Some of us are acquainted somewhat with good playing.
I`ve been playing all sorts of rts games for decades, and from the sounds of it well before you were born. I apologize for you exceeding my patience but in case you missed it, Demigod is not a standard rts. If you want a standard rts, go play BuckCraft or the hordes of innumerable 'clone others' that already exist out there. In the meantime please devote yourself to corrupting the potential integrity of some other game. Please and thank you.
I've always felt that rock/paper/scissors is a gimmicky counter system that people fall back on when they can't really think of anything else. Hard counters (eg. x is good against y because it simply deals more damage to y) is not a good system that takes both skill and strategy into account. In fact, there's extremely little strategy in hard counters - but there IS an element of mind games (reading what your opponent will do).
Soft counters, on the other hand, I feel are more desirable. A soft counter would be a counter where x beats y not because it's simply given the ability to deal a lot more damage to it, but because of the way it's built. Futhermore, soft counters still allow y to beat x if y is very skilled. This system requires a considerably greater effort in design, but gives the game much more depth. A simple example of a soft counter would be a unit that deals very high damage but requires a precise shot vs a very fast unit. The first unit will have a hard time hitting the fast unit, but if he can hit him, he wins. Thus, in that situation, the fast unit is a soft counter against the high damaging precision one. Neither automatically trumps the other - it all depends how it's played out.
So far, I somewhat feel that way about flags as well. IMO, strategic locations should be strategic because of something intrinsic - eg. high ground = more range/sight. Flags are basically an artificial strategic element that feel forced in there. Again, that's just my opinion... and despite that disclaimer, I know someone out there will somehow take offense to it anyways, calling me a blizzard fanboy or something equally ridiculous.
Let's definitely bear in mind that these arenas ARE artificial. That is, the gods have placed these arenas specifically so that the Demigods can vie for the favor of the gods to ascend.
It's not like Supreme Commander or even Warcraft where there's this chunk of territory you're trying to conquer.
That's absolutely true - which is why I was only somewhat disagreed with them. I agree with them because they fit in perfectly with the mythos of the game and the environment you're trying to create.
I disagree with them because to me, they feel like "strategy that's shoehorned in", if you know what I mean.
The flags play right into the God's arena the all father placed items in the arena and only a ascend DG will have the skills to find it and use it. And WarlokLord I been playing RPG's and RTS before there was CG games with paper and dice so no you are not older and wiser. And believe me no one wants this game to be SC and sure not warcraft they has ruined the RPG game world with the pay 2 play. Looking back could there be hidden items in the arena that would be game enders if found.
Well you sure don`t conduct yourself as if you do/have. And try speaking with fewer acronyms in properly constructed sentences please - this laziness is making my English head spin as I attempt to keep up with the cryptography. Obviously we have a strong disagreement between us. Anyway (before this thread diverges)...
I agree with Jinx. I would rather see the game be delayed (I can't believe I said that) and have these things really worked out then have them thrown in at the last minute and have them not work out the way they were imagined.
But if stardock does make sure its well implimented, then I'm all for it. (Although I'm still worried about groups ganging up on specific people)
just came up with an idea... maybe the specific demigod items are unique per team? Only one good and one evil DG can have a "rook" ring or "UB" ring etc.?
seriously lprometheus there is no reason to be so rude...
Good RTS don't have counters like "unit a beats unit b" (for the same cost). Take a look on starcraft, Dragoons are weak vs zerglings and hydralisks but if you play mass goons in early game they suddenly become good vs them as their range advantage and the higher hp let you kill their army without losing firepower as quick as he does. Reavers kill hydralisks with 1 scarab but if they are caught from hydralisks in open field they totally suck. The key of good "hard counters" in RTS is that they are situational and can be countered itself. A ring which gives you +Damage vs a Demigod is not situational and has no counter. All you can do is changing the line (which doesn't work in 1vs1) or buying the Anti-Demigod item yourself (if both have it, its like nobody has it so we don't need it all in the end). I mean is there really so much strategy in a counter which can be countered by buying the item for yourself t_t
The Key difference to RTS is that you aren't stuck with your units in RTS (your enemy starts building carrier vs your Tank/Vulture army, scout it early enough and build wraiths+medics or goliaths), while in Demigod you can't just exchange your Demigod for another one or build a new one at least.
What you can adapt to is items which grant a bonus in some situations, as you can try to avoid them or get the hell out of there once it has been triggered (running away from him all time when the effect is always active as in the suggestion from frogboy is no option).
What about an item that gave nearby creeps a bonus against a particular Demigod?
When you talk about what is reasonable to program, it's difficult to make suggestions because we don't know what categories are available to target or modify.
That should be easy to code - there already is code for aura's, including damage buffs (including those that affect your creeps).
Incidentally, that would be an awesome solution to the anti-demigod items. It would up the value of the creeps and, more importantly, make the anti-Demigod power counterable by it's target:
By killing the creeps - a tradeoff between "can I take the extra damage from those creeps and focus on the demigod causing the aura, or do I kill the creeps and take damage while the demigod hits me". Which is added tactical choice. There's your skill-based mechanic in DG v DG combat.
Thats a really good idea. Giving creeps/minions some specific bonus versus specific Demigods sounds like it changes a dynamic of play - powerful Demigods might suddenly need to treat such escorted/buffed popcorn/swordfodder with more ample fear & respect.
Example: All friendly creep Angels/Demons within 30 feet deliver +50% damage to angelic/demonic/dead Demigods.
Example: All friendly creep minotaur warriors within 30 feet receive -50% damage from dead/diseased Demigods.
Example: All friendly creeps within 30 feet attack 35% more quickly versus any enemy Demigod.
Example: All friendly creep minotaur warriors within 30 feet gain 10 pt. health regeneration per second.
Example: All friendly ground-born creeps within 30 feet gain 100 pt. Thorns ability when struck by mortal Demigods.
Call these items "Cult" items, or "Adherence" items.
Generate them randomly. Design an array of such abilities, pick one of the Cult abilities and add it to any other item in the item roster - each game would have a tiny chance of any item featuring a Cult characteristic. That trait would of course increase the item`s cost appropriately. You would also allow for items of any ragdoll type (i.e. shoes, helmets, etc.) to have that nature. Plus, you instantly have an entire raft of new items, doubling the available roster.
(i.e. Cultic Ring Of The AllFather, Cultic Boots Of Speed, Cultic Elven Cloak, etc.)
Of course they would be rarer than any others. Putting the 'versus Demigod' aspect onto the creeps is an excellent concept - again Night`s Edge, good idea!
It's hard to express how much i hate the idea of Demigod specific items or Anti-Demigod items.
They dont add to the game they reduce the game: they damage the strategy of the item game, stop inventive builds and turn the game into a rock-paper-scissors counter system.
You need a wide variety of inventive and fundamentally different items, if you do that then people will figure out counters themselves.
Listen to the man.
Items should all be soft counters, if your familiar with the term, so that you can reduce damage dealt to you or give you a chance to stun or reduce enemy armor. These kinds of items dont turn the counters into a rock-paper-scissors game and allow for the enemy to adapt and counter your counter.
Well, the tough element is that Frogboy would like to try this element without making something complicated. This limits the options of what we can do. Best thing I can suggest is do whatever thye feel they can do in whatever spair time they got to experiement, and we'll test it out to really see if it does or doesn't work in this game.
Something on paper is not always the way it'll be in practice, and element of fun is hard to predict without giving something a shot.
My last suggestion is simple. If you're going to make items which work better against certain Demigods, it should also punish the player against everything else.
If you get a Ring which allows you boosted damage against Rook, you take a hit in what damage you can do Buildings.
If you get a Ring which allows you boosted damage against Unclean Beast, you do reduced damage to Reienforcements.
With every plus, there should be a minus, so you don't become too all powerful. Not to mention stacking such items in a 1v1 game would leave you highly effective agaisnt your Enemy Demigod, but uselss against everything else.
OK, this makes it interesting. If the ROP idea comes into play, try at least one test version that does this...
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