I've come across this sentiment in a couple threads so I thought it might be time for a separate discussion. Does a fear of experienced players and/or pro players keep you from coming online?
My advice is to accept that you have to take your lumps and pay your dues in order to become experienced and also to look over the player records before a game is about to start and politely request that the teams be balanced and mention that you're new to the online game. In my experience if you say that you're new to the online game players will try to balance out the teams.
Also, you guys can play the game online as humans v. computer until you feel a little more comfortable playing online. You might even try to set up some human v. human games with other people who are willing to play human v. computer. You could also title games, "New Players Only".
Another thing to remember in a team game is that you personally don't need to be winning in order for your team to be winning and you don't have to be elite to help your team. Even if you lose, try to enjoy being as annoying and as big of a pain in the arse as you can--delaying the fall of your empire and distracting your team's opponents helps your team. So, even if you get beaten when you're first starting out--try to enjoy the challenge of being a pain in the butt--enjoy the game as a team game and enjoy doing what you can to help your team.
I don't know why people don't like the smack talk. It's been around long before computer games, I can't tell you how much crap gets talked in any dominoes game I've ever played. It's just part of the fun
Anyway, I also like it when I get stomped, dramatic increase in skill from me soon afterwards after I learn a much more effecient way to do things
Smack talk is okay, but the problem is that it's usually on teh computer screen. If every time I played chess or monopoly, someone wrote ugly notes and tack them to the board while we play, I would probably use the board to give them their daily fiber. I can tune it out otherwise.
As for spams, I do see their point. A lot of newer players are not as quick. So say they get spammed, but the enemy has whatever combo coming up beat them. Well, if they don't survive long enough to see the combo, all they learn is that they have to hit the keys quicker. WWI was a spam attack and is considered one of the strategic blunders of history. WWII took amazing thought, even with D-day, to win despite numeric superiority.
1.05 was the last patch where spam was really effective. Particularly Illuminator spam, but HC, LRM, Assailant spam all work pretty well too. There were some advance tactics that could beat spam, but most players didn't make the effort.
Currently, there is a counter to every strategy and ship. If you die to spam it means,
A. You don't know how to counter it. B. Your economy is so far behind you can't produce enough counter units to matter.C. Your enemy is micro managing his units much better than you are using the counter units.
A good player is not going to use a complex strategy to kill you if a simple one is working just fine. Why should I use all my utensils when all I need is a spoon?
One word... Sporks. lol
Accualy, now that i thought about sporks, there is one, the tec robotics cruisers with the officive robots ability. build about 20 of those and send them in to raid a planet, they deal out damage and repair themselvs all at the same time. hence both a "spoon" and a "fork"
In most games it seems that there is always a preferred strategy. You have to be able to implement it in a certain time. So it is the same map, same race, etc. If you choose last week's settings. you are a noob.
I have kids, and I just don't have time to keep up on these things. I don't have a lot of time to play, let alone do post-game analysis.
Last two times I played MP were way back in beta, got completely steamrolled once by a guy with about 8 caps when I had 2-3, i think it was Schod. Now I just don't have the time or desire to commit to long games. I might try to get in a couple comp stomps for fun because at least strategizing with humans is more fun than otherwise. I just wish the AI was more intelligent and not reliant on bonuses to be competitive.
I agree with that, they need to revamp the AI on its economy, with starbases generating income and paying for themselves, even with the hardest of AI "cheats" my income by early mid game is always way higher than the AI (im talking 10 to 15 times higher).
There is a fear of expereanced players, but the fear of lag (Read: Knowing that I will lag) Is far stronger.
Yeah, the lag thing or players dropping out generally kills the fun. I see that happening with longer games more than anything.
The comp doesn't offer up a challenge unless you lock teams in their favor and set them to unfair.
I know spams can be stopped, but I'm still not much of an MPer. Just sympathizing.
Played my first multi last night, 3 VS AI 3. Within 10 minutes the 1 st guy bailed , then after the second player a gal noticed he was gone, she also left me to play against the AI fleets alone . I played it it out until my homeworld was sieged and my capacity to defend was nulled. It didnt help that I was stranded on the other side of the map with 2 AI gulping all the territory in my vicinity.
I played some Empire at War games a few years back , people screamed at you and didnt tolerate beginners , now I dont play the game or have it installed , same with Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds even earlier , people kill the community for their games by being rude to beginners . Then they wonder why I ignore requests for game invites , I will play Sins online again and hopefully figure out a better strategy to win . Im a casual gamer , but if it aint fun (and I dont mean I have to win all games) then I dont play.
Not to sound elitist infinityshadow, but your kind of players is exactly why people don't like newbs on their teams. You just admitted you don't have to win all your games. That means having you on my team will mean i will likely lose that game because wining secondary to fun to you. I have played many games online where i seen partners leave because they lost their capitol ship or a single battle and quit. Why? Not fun anymore because its no longer easy mode and you have to actually play really well to come back? I don't mind teaching a newb how to play if they actually stick around and and play until ever last option is exhausted. I played games where my partner lost everything, his worlds, his fleet, all he had left was a asteroid, but with feed and support from me, he come back and rebuilt his fleet and took back worlds. Tenacity and resilience are generally lacking from the casual and newb players.
At least, thats how I see things.
This is why they need diffrent chat/game rooms (or you can make it your self), that way you know what your getting in to
Elrosh, i have to dissagree with you on that, because (my thinking) is that its a game, and games are suppose to be fun, but if you focus too much on just winning (yes winning is defantly a fun multiplier in most cases) to the point that your not having fun, then you have just defeted the point of the game, to have fun and entertane yourself for hours.
No, the best games are against experienced players, just be nice and never give up......
I've never mined losing, but this is why I don't play, covers about half the players I've ever met;
http://www.destructoid.com/ten-golden-rules-of-online-gaming-64474.phtml
so you buy a game to play carriers and LRM makes perfect sense what are you a complete moron or something go back and play Dawn of war or C&C most people that spam dont know how to play an X4 genre game
An excelent point. I have to agree with Elrosh a bit too, though. It is incredibly annoying when people quit in the middle of a game, or start to lose and just quit. I am a noob and a casual gamer. I don't mind playing against veteran players, but I hate the in-game noob bashing. I agree when Elrosh said, "Tenacity and resilience are generally lacking from the casual and newb players," but it's really discouraging to start out then die in the first half-hour or so, just cause it was easy and someone wanted to take you out early. Understandable, but hard on the new guy. Also, I don't think many people expect such a huge learning curve for multi-player. I know I didn't. I can take on unfair AI's all day, but I get creamed so bad online, it's not even funny.
I'm not trying to turn this into a noob pity party. Despite the HUGE learning curve online, (and a bit of intimidation too) I still think it's fun, and I find I'm forced to learn new tactics (I last a little longer each game ) I like online play and keep coming back for more.
I would love to see some improvements for multi-player, though. Like a ranking system or auto-match. Or a format for shorter games.
I sort of agree with Elrosh too. It can be very annoying for someone with 0 games to come in and upset a team balance by not knowing what they are doing. The flip side of this is you cannot rule out them being a smurf with a new account...
Here is an example of a game where a newb noob almost killed our team from their lack of understanding. This is a classic of why the pros fear the newbs!!!!
HowThe and I hooked up with Duke Greg (who ended up going 2v1 with his side of the maps opponents, but getting a feed from How who went econ from a bad starting position) and a newb. HowThe was in the pocket and the newb (yellow) was on the outside closest to the enemy (basically we were in 1/2 circles with the teams facing each other). I expanded rapidly towards the opposition and my ally (yellow), but lacked a big fleet due to the planet colonising and getting some higher level units like fighters and overseers. The opposition player (red) was getting supported by his feeder and spammed carriers. HowThe also joined up his fleet with me and we attacked red. Our ally (yellow) played like it was his first ever game (not MP game. First ever game of Sins period...) and did not attack red - instead went off colonising dead roids etc... and not getting civilian infra to prevent the -ve income. This lack of threat to red allowed him to focus on me and HowThe, spam more carriers and get support (HCs) from his feeder's fleet. The only reason our team won was by getting the yellow guy to quit and let the AI take over. HowThe was then able to feed the AI and get him to attack red's factory planet.
Now - looking at the replay of the game - the OP didn't fear us. They were aware of how the game was unfolding and therefore who they would end up fighting. They were actually winning until 1) HowThe and I managed to grind down the fighter spam some and (most importantly) 2) we convinved yellow to quit and let the AI take over. As previously stated, a bit of a feed from How and yellow had fixed up its negative income issues and was building a fleet (finally). We finally got the break we needed when one of the opposition (red) fled the grav well they were fighting in with their ally against HowThe and me (both with Lvl6+ eggs and How was putting some PJI in place) to defend against yellow. The other guy promptly accuded him of killing him and quit (which is true - we were able to phase inhib bomb his fleet and keep it there with the PJI. Plus I had some overseers and subs. So his HC were locked down with no air cover to kill the subs and the overseers kept both fleets alive from the HCs that weren't subverted. The AI that took over when he quit couldn't do anything either. Red then promptly quit when he realised we had killed his ally and could break out in two directions plus having the yellow AI do stuff to help us.
The following lessons can be learnt from this game:
1) Pros can still be beaten by teamwork. We were losing. It requires you to co-operate with each other and play smart.
2) Pros cannot always make up for a bad ally. 4 decent players vs 2 pro, and 1 total noob and 1 decent player will win as the newb will be out quickly and then the pro (who might be winning against the decent player) will be 2v1.
3) Pros are less likely to quit on each other as they know each other and stick it out to help their friends. This is the big difference I have noticed. A hurting pro can still be more lethal then a replacement AI.
4) You don't need to "win" your battle to help your team win. You just need to not lose it. Duke Greg has getting hit 2v1 but held (with a feed). While he couldn't progress much, he stopped them progressing, giving us time to work the other side of the map and hook into the back field.
Which part of my message is unclear ? In my first experience online MP in this game , the other 2 players left me , I was the last one in the game . DOES that remotely tell you Im patient and willing to play until the end ? Yes , I played that game until the AI beat me and there was no human players to rely on, but these other folks are the one who abandoned me. NOT A POSITIVE FIRST IMPRESSION to leave with me. I assure you son, though I play for fun Im a fairly hardcore gamer who's roots go back to buying Intelivision games in the 80's , and until recently I have had at least one console for every video game generation . I even beta test and make maps. So don't pigeonhole me with the mommys or little girls with keyboards , I hold my own. As I warned before , the sucess of this game relies on the courtesy of the veteran players . If you want a closed community of hardcore players and no one else realise the other side of the coin . EMPTY SERVERS.
Experienced players? No.
13 year olds... Maybe.
13 year olds who have only the mastery of the word 'fag' and throwing insults at you over speach/text chat? Yes.
If I play multiplayer its with people I know.
the fun in sins is, talking to your opponents while you have downtimes in the game. like teamspeak/skype/whatever kind of talking.
I have no fun playing games that can last like 4 hours with a random mute. Or a group of mutes.
I play with people i know, because talking is fun.
Nothing says 'FAIL' like throwing a bean bag at the person who was supposed to be defending!
true, I enjoy looking at it from inside the game, as if I were there, I enjoy making the pace slow enough that i dont forget to enjoy the game and just go mad button bashing and clicking to get ahead and win an hour down the line, Too much stress if you ask me, Now playing with friends over a Lan, thats totally different, its sociable, we eat, drink, take breaks to go to the pub or restock supplies, its a hoot, and one that does not involve stress just fun and laughter about getting your but owned by your mate.
Moriicon, I'm totally with you. That's what I like doing.
InfinityShadow, I feel for you. That's why I don't play online. Half the time they freak and leave and the other half they don't pay too much attention.
The biggest problem i see with sins mutiplayer is that its not a just a 5 - 15 min match, its hours, and take cordination to set up. Its not really a problem per se, but it is the reason alot of people leave the game half way. Its not like you can just sit down, play a quick game then head of to wherever, like you can with halo. To play sins from start to finnish takes time, (and with all the updates lately, saved multiplayer games are almost mute) and needs commitment. talk in the chat rooms first poeple, make sure your allys can make the comentment
Another note, a cool idea: a "fast" game, where when you start, you already have 5 planets, fully developled, a mid size fleet and about a 3rd of the reserch compleated, or have a points system where you can do a quick setup, spending points on stuff (every one would have the same points) then start.
xploseve your cool idea 1 planets allocated, 2 fully developed, 3 research completed (partial),4 points (possible with allocated credits/metal/crystal otherwise no in the current engine)
from my own testing/mucking around 1, 2 & 4 are very easy to create with a custom map created in galaxy forge, but 3 a partial research can not be done
details on how to do these
1 create a custom map setting the home planet and allocated planet(s) of each player to 5 on each of the upgrades except exploration
2 alter the starting credits/metal & crystal for each player to the same values (eg credits 5000,metal 800, crystal 600)
the problem is that it is a custom galaxy forge map that ALL players must have the same version of, so there is still a co-ordination problem of each player getting the map and puting it in the correct location and having the same version of sins/entrenchment with the same modes of the same version with the same checksum or they can not play
harpo
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