I've come across this sentiment in a couple threads so I thought it might be time for a separate discussion. Does a fear of experienced players and/or pro players keep you from coming online?
My advice is to accept that you have to take your lumps and pay your dues in order to become experienced and also to look over the player records before a game is about to start and politely request that the teams be balanced and mention that you're new to the online game. In my experience if you say that you're new to the online game players will try to balance out the teams.
Also, you guys can play the game online as humans v. computer until you feel a little more comfortable playing online. You might even try to set up some human v. human games with other people who are willing to play human v. computer. You could also title games, "New Players Only".
Another thing to remember in a team game is that you personally don't need to be winning in order for your team to be winning and you don't have to be elite to help your team. Even if you lose, try to enjoy being as annoying and as big of a pain in the arse as you can--delaying the fall of your empire and distracting your team's opponents helps your team. So, even if you get beaten when you're first starting out--try to enjoy the challenge of being a pain in the butt--enjoy the game as a team game and enjoy doing what you can to help your team.
One idea I think Stardock and Ironclad could implement would be to give new players--CD keys that have never logged onto ICO before or that have only been doing it for less than 2 months--the option of choosing to go to a special new players only server.
Or along that line make it so a player's win ratio only goes up if they win versus someone of an equal level or higher.
I really do think most pros will respect a game titled "5v5 noobs only".
In my experience, most games named 'Noobs only' are hosted by someone very conscious of his allready-high 'kill count'. Basically, someone who wants cheap wiins. (This was at least true in Company of Heroes, an otherwise REALLY good game.). YMMV.
A trust based system would be best, in many ways - experienced players may want to drop by to offer help, for instance, and segregating the community isn't that good an idea - but it has problems.
I haven't seen anyone do that in Sins yet. In my experience, "noobs only" games really do have a nooby host.
While I wouldn't say "fear" I don't have much interest in playing with Pro players. The way I enjoy playing the game isn't the most efficent way to play the game so if I play against a Pro I have the choice between being very badly beaten or not enjoying the game and being compedative.
I personally enjoy a big mutli-player map where I can control a few core worlds with a large force of capital ships and then use my forces tactically to collect bounties, deny enemies and support allies as the situation demands. I like to use the Advent's high shields to hit and run and level up my capitcal fleet while wearing down my enemy. With my ships leveled up they can usually take out other capital ships and a few frigates before then need to jump out. This lets me keep a small strong force and keep my enemy in check. Too many planets and fleets is just a real bother for me to manage in real time even with the sins HuD to let me access my empire quickly so even though I can do it of course, it isn't very enjoyable for me. My play style works well enough is casual and AI games but in serious games I'm easily take down by agressive early game frigate swarms from agressive Vasarai players typically can't recover and that isn't much fun for me.
I have played on oline with both "Pros" and Newbies. I consider myself a newbie. I have only won two times and failed many times and I consider that part of the learning experience. I also have had the luck of some online tutoring from some of the pros. It helped changed the way I played and with that I am very thankful.
What disturbs me the most is when I ask if it is okay to join a game, nothing is said, but I'm given the boot. That is pretty chicken shit if you ask me, especially when it takes so long to get all the players assembled for a game to start, so I just move on. Or you start a game and everyone vanishes and then I find out I'm playing only the AI. Which by the way happens a lot and of course you don't get credit for the win, because I end up finishing the game anyway.
I have also earned the respect of some of the pros who thought they could just roll into my planets with a string of capitol ships and a good size fleet only to get their a** kicked. Only then have that player tell his team mate my mouth is full of very sharp teeth (never heard that comment before) so both came back and kicked my a**. But it was a learning experience and it was fun. I guess when you think about it. Wolverines do have sharp teeth. <smile> AKA Wolverines Revenge.
I also don't understand how a game can only thrity minutes old and some player rolls into my area and already has several level 7 capitol ships and a fleet that is twice the size of mine. With a solar system isn't that big and I've colonized as much as I could without over stretching myself.. I just didn't jump of the turnip truck to start playing, but it did seem pretty fishy. And when I looked at the players specs, I see he played a lot, but it still did not ad up.
I just wish some rules were talked about before the game starts as I'm not familar with all the acronyms associated with the game. So, I've said my piece and hopefully I will play some of you soon
Quietben AKA Wolverines Revenge
I was sucked into an advertised "noob friendly" 5v5 game only to find it was "noob bait". The players who conspired made sure no one joned their team--several times instructing people to swap sides before the start and causing quite a wait while they got everyone where they wanted them. It was a random map with of course all fast settings and within the first three-five minutes, I was hit with a multiple cap ship raid accompanied by more than four dozen frigates. A minute into the pointless combat a starbase was erected just as my world came under assault. At that point, the other two players backing him came in with their smaller fleets. The one who initially attacked me changed his player name at the last few seconds before start to the same as mine adding an "s" to the end. I guess he figured this would be confusing...something he confused with what is actually just "annoying".
My first thought was, "Whoa--a hack!" when the monster fleet rolled in but I think it was simply a case where his mates funneled cash to him so he could attack. I base this in part on a mistaken "open com" they made where he asked, "Buff me so I can roll him, O.K.?". So I think that is what is usally happening.
Of course these guys public chatted the whole time about how awesome they were. I just logged off. Completely stupid waste of time. Luckily it didn't last more than five minutes.
[quote]Rant[/quote SIN-Imperium]
In my experience, games like those are the exception, not the norm. Can't really say anything to your story except that you happened to pick a bad game.
The unrestricted resource feeding between players makes it so that you can be on the losing end of an unfair fight, no matter who you are (unless your name starts with "John" and ends with "James"). If it happens to you in a team game, DON'T QUIT until it's general consensus among your team that the game has been decided. Most more experienced players would happily give you advice on how to keep at least your home planet or a decent fleet alive and be as annoying to the other team as possible. Playing intelligently while personally losing can still make the difference for your team as a whole.
When it comes to giving people hell, digging a deep hole in your homeworld and arming it to death is beautiful. It wasn't in Sins, but when I was playing Guild Wars, there were two groups going PvP and this one guy survived while everyone else was slaughtered. He was such a tank that he could take an endless number of hits and just heal the damage away. The other guys were too numerous for him to kill cause they kept resurrecting one another, so it was a repetitive fight. It went on for almost a half hour and the bigger team got tired and logged off. This one guy won out cause he just wouldn't leave the game and wouldn't die.
If you can hold your homeworld and just keep them from getting anywhere, stay in the game and win by default when their asses fall asleep. Even if you don't get points for it, make their lives as miserable as they try to make yours.
Three minutes isn't much time to communicate with four other new players who don't know each other while simultaneously defending your world from a coordinated attack by five players who are dumping all their resources to a player two jumps from you. I didn't even get scouted--the fleet just sailed straight in. I didn't even have time to finish upgrading planetary infrastructure before the first wave hit.
It was my first 5v5 game. If I had players reinforcing or helping I would have continued--I literally lost all ships and orbital facilities in less than two minutes. So I had a HW and no ships or extractors. Not much point.
I would say it isn't the norm but if I see a 5v5 game all fast settings now I just move right along.
On the other hand, I got owned pretty early in a 1v1 the next time I played by the Orkulus at your HW strategy. I actually took out his cap and most of his frigates but didn't have enough oomph left for the Orkulus--which I didn't know at the time could move (lol). I had fun with this player though and told him good strat and played on till I was completely destroyed--but we chatted and exchanged strategy tips as he reduced me to radioactive rubble so it was fine and fun. He was a nice guy.
Yeah, I have nothing against dying in MP to a nice guy, but its the jerks I'm concerned with. Unfortunately, there is dishonesty of just a few which can ruin it for everyone else. I'm okay with getting steamrolled, but I would like to know why...
Yes, I gave up on online RTS years ago.
I have no wish on becoming a master at any game like some of these guys do. Every once in a while I get a new RTS, learn the ropes and login only to find that setting up the game takes longer than the game itself. As to the smurfers, every time I start a new game I do go to the n00b games to test the ropes only to get my ass handed to me in 5 mins.
SMURFING KILLS ONLINE PLAY-if you cant get a game under your real name that should be a hint you play to much and no one else spends that much time practicing or watching replays
So with that rant out. I play with 3 buds a couple sundays a month, huge 5 star and save games or I play SP huge 5 star 10 players 6 hard 4 unfair and working my way up to more unfair (AND ITS FUN) so I am not a complete n00b.
Sorry for the rant but this bugged me for years
Consider hosting your own games. If you use good settings and are reasonable other people will probably join it. Choose single star random maps (unless playing 3v3) with Locked Teams, Pirates Off, Quick Start On, Fast speeds for all speed settings. People will probably join and no one can kick you from the game setup room.
I think you just had a bad experience. And you probably did the right thing by throwing up your hands and saying, "GG, you win," and just leaving. It's not as though the winners got to enjoy a competitive, suspenseful, challenging Sins game or anything, and it's not as though you had much invested in that game.
There's a great scene in the movie Revenge of the Nerds (a classic comedy that everyone would enjoy) where there's a tug of war in a pool of mud at the fratetnity games between the Alpha Beta football team fraternity and the weakling Nerds fraternity. Obvioulsy the Nerds are going to get owned. So the Nerd team holds the rope and when the starting whistle blows, they just let go and watch the jocks fall backwards into the mud. "OK, you win!"
What you might do is to try to insist that 5v5 games be "pugged" where two captains of preferably equal skill and experience draft-pick the teams. Also, download and install the custom map packs so that you will be ready to play custom maps (many of which are designed to prevent rushing and to have allies start near one another, mine anyway) if one is hosted. Having one more person who has the customs ready to go makes it just a little easier for custom map games to get started. You might enjoy some of my maps:
Dirty Sanchez Map Pack and maps in Darvin's Community Compilation
For Darvin's compilation the file you want is Setup.exe, which is another auto-installer.
Why would new players want to join 5v5 games? Don't join 5v5s, they are bound to be too hard for you, and no-one has enough time to give you the advice you need. Even if the teams are 'balanced' rather than stacked, the odds are that you'll be right next to a player far better than you, who is in a hurry to stomp you on behalf of his team. Not even the best players like 5v5, or they wouldn't play under false names so often- and why should good players allow 'balanced teams' to ruin their win-loss records? Perhaps its a pity that there are no non-ranked games?
Also, the game was not intended for 5v5s, by far the bulk of the included maps are for 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3. I also doubt that the random maps were intended for multiplayer either. The custom maps are more for players who have played several games on existing maps, and know what they are doing,
When I started, my first ever game was a 2v2 on one of the standard maps, my partner was an experienced player who wasn't too pushed to give me advice when I needed it. There were almost no PUG 5v5s then, and the game was far better for it. It isn't smurfs that have brought numbers down, so much as the 5v5 enthusiasts. Make smaller!
Yes.
This is not just for Sins but for every RTS game. Actually FPS's too. Actually... this is why I play offline RPG's... all the time I need to select what I'm going to do and out-think my opponents.
My death is like delivery food - garanteed in minutes.
I can barely handle the computer on normal and most humans are like the comp on hard right?
I've played one or two games and they were fun. I think one addition that would make online more fun for this game is being able to talk ONLY to one single player instead of just ALL or PARTY so I can backstab and double cross and set up secret trade alliances and agreements and such.
I don't see how that situation is much different from 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4. If anything, a newer player might have more leeway in a game with 9 other experienced players (4 being on his team) because he won't have as large of a burden of having to win the game for his team as he would in a 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3. He might also get lucky and start in an eco slot. It's also easier to balance the teams the more players you have. It's also easier to migrate to the center of the map and to try to stay alive while the other 4 players on your team try to win the game, which they very well might do if one or two players on the other team aren't all that great, either. The effective loss of 20% of the team in a 5v5 isn't as crippling as the loss of 33% of the team in a 3v3 or 50% of the team in a 2v2. This means that a saavy new player in a 5v5 might actually be able to climb back into the game later or figure out some sort of a way to make a contribution to his team.
The command you are looking for, to privately chat with one person, is Whisper, /w "Name". You can press <TAB> repeatedly until you see the name you want to whisper to in game.
It depends on players' experience. Very experienced players will probably feel more like Vicious AI. Brand new players will probably feel more like Hard AI. One huge difference is that you will feel that you are really playing a strategy game and not a game against a buffed up brute with the strategic thinking ability of a toaster.
It does sound to me like you need much more practice in single player before ever coming online. You have your games set to "Locked Teams", right, so that the AI doesn't gang up on you, making it 7 on 1 agaisnt you? People probably shouldn't try to play it online against human opponents until they can beat the Hard AI easily. Do note that you can always come online and play Comp Stomps with other people against AI opponents.
Hey, comp stomps sound like a great way to find equal players to hook up with more.
Fixed.
This is precisely why AI games are fairly pointless.
It is and it might be more fun for some people than playing single player. Lots of players play online comp stomps. It's also a way to watch other players and perhaps learn from them. Over time you and a group of guys might become friends and try some private 2v2 games against each other and then maybe test the waters of playing against the general public at some point.
Rabit Rabbit, as online multiplayer players I think we should promote online comp stomps to people who play single player as a way to try to bring more people to Ironclad Online. It helps get people accustomed to coming online and perhaps one day they'll feel bold enough to try playing it against human opponents. It must be tempting, especially if you feel that you are very good against the AI and wonder how you would stack up against a human player. It would also bring more new players online, making it easier and less daunting for them to set up humans v. humans games.
It would be great if we could get a couple hundred people who play single player only to come online and play comp stomps and to then organize humans v. humans games against one another. I've been advocating something like this for a long time--the creation of a list of newer players who could add one another to their friends lists and then set up games that only the people on that list could join.
Yep--bad luck was all. I really don't mind losing. it doesn't bother me a bit. There is an open source game I was somewhat "famous" in because I would repeately go head to head with the best when I first began and routinely would get slaughtered. Over time I became one of the better players and was well liked because everyone knew I was fun to play with win or lose. Years back when we played wargames I was willing to try new ones against veterans and always was well received because I didn't mind losing and put up a fight--and those were games where you spent hours face-to-face. It was always fun.
Losing is no problem as long as a challenge or fun exists. It's pretty sad that the players in that game really don't get that PLAYING the game is what makes it fun. It would be like winning a hockey game with one goal at the start and then by intentionally fouling the entire rest of the match till the clock ran out. Not much of a game anyone would enjoy watching or playing.
I think one of the great things about SINs is the flexibility--the agility to create a true strategic map that will drive the game (few that I have seen), to play by lan, to save online long games and resume later--these are great features. And I have played several games where we have gotten to see novalith barrages and the like. I'll continue playing online but I do presonally prefer the long strategic game.
This is a great concept for a game and I would love to see it opened up for even more moddability. Kudos to the devs.
Yeah... I would hope that sometime over the summer I can get my girlfriend interested in this game, so we can do comp stomps until she starts getting good. I can go head to head with an unfair and win on anything save for Point Blank...
The problem is I don't care to get good enough to take on the online of sins. I'm perfectly fine with being good enough to take on/play with my buddies at school or what have you. RTSes shine through LAN, not online.
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