In my defense, I first framed Obama's infanticide around the issue of fear of terrorism....read #12.
It seems to me that if you didn't want to discuss abortion, then you shouldn't have made it an issue in your comment #14....
In one breath you say you don't want to discuss abortion, then state your own position and challenge mine.....did you really expect me to let that go unchecked? If so, you are placing strange terms for discussion.
On this we have agreement!
A Christian knows that GOd is his Father and he serves Him as a child of God from a motive of love, a love which cast out servile fear without diminishing filial respect.
So does a Jew and a Muslim.
OK, in agreement on at least one thing, wonderful! Now comes the question, how to serve God? Service to God means to me to be in-service to His creation, man included, not just men's souls. In Judaism we do this through Torah study, Avodah (prayer/meditation) and Gemilut Hesed (acts of lovingkindness). In Zen, through meditation, as well as ceasing to do evil, doing good, and creating abundant good for all beings.
In both cases the emphasis is on the living planet. Reducing or eliminating killing, finding ways to nurture each other, support each other, and resolve conflict non-violently are aspects of the way. Diminishing man through speach is diminishing God's work. It is disrespectful to the Creator. so, I would urge all of us to begin respecting those we disagree with, finding God within them, and loving them as yourself.
as to the abortion issue, I tried to ask in the begining for us to not go there. To the extent that I addressed your comments, I suppose you are correct in that I extended the conversation. Let's let that go and move on to more positive issues.
Be well.
Yes, sir!
Could you explain? Calling God the Father comes from Christianity as part of the Blessed Trinity...I thought Jews and Muslims didn't believe in God as the Father.
She's doing and following her heart and her mind and her soul that is exactly the problem !!!!! she (and all of us) is supposed to follow God's orders and our own hearts, minds and souls must be consistent with His System as a whole not just one issue. By themselves, our own hearts, minds and souls could lead us astry. If a candidate who openly supported terrorism asked you for your vote, would you say, " I disagree with you on terrorism, but where do you stand on other issues?"
She's doing and following her heart and her mind and her soul
that is exactly the problem !!!!!
she (and all of us) is supposed to follow God's orders and our own hearts, minds and souls must be consistent with His System as a whole not just one issue. By themselves, our own hearts, minds and souls could lead us astry.
False comparison !!! terrorism is not a personal issue affecting one person or two or even a family ... it is a world-wide cancer destroying the souls and minds of people through fear ... and THAt is what the article is all about.
The evidence is clear...abortion is the taking of a most innocent human life...and no one, but no one, not you, not me, not Supreme Court jusctices, not any legislative body has the authority to do that...in fact, God's commands otherwise, "Thou shalt not kill."
you are absolutely correct .... and NO ONE argues with you about that. The problem is that YOU insist on interferring between people and thier God !!! for the life of me i can't understand how you can't understand that. if someone decides to kill, regardless of the victim .... no one on earth can prevent him/her ... and it is a decision each person makes for themselves and it is between them and their God .... get out of their way Lula ... you or anyone on earth cant force people to obey their God ... it is a personal belief issue ... not a societal one ... all society can do is educate and inform and put in place policies that keep that terrible action to a minimum and no one anywhere disagrees with that.
In many instances, the pregnant mother wants to have the baby but the boyfriend, the husband, the one time stand, in other words, the one who impregnated her says no way. I've read stories of young girls in the abortion clinic and right up until the very last moment didn't want the abortion, but was forced to go through with it.
are you going to get me started on this?
I dont hear you fighting "young girls" (or anyone) doing "one time stand" !!!
I dont hear you fighting to make premarital sex illegal !!!
I dont hear you fighting the culture that allows people to practice sexual activities as if it was a sport !!!
those fights will make abortion so rare that you won't even think of it as an issue. and those fights affect the whole society not only the individuals who practice abortion.
but i dont hear you or anyone fighting those fights ... and you know that those are against God's commands as much as abortion if not more since they involve the whole society not just small % of its people.
Faith and works are one, not two. We live our faith in the world through our behavior.
Exactly !!!!!
allowing our kids and ourselves to practice multitudes of actions against God's commands and then take one issue and behave as if we obeying all others is just pure tunnel-vision so obvious that makes me wonder whom are we fooling here? God or ourselves !!!!
Actually, God, the father comes from Judaism to Christianity. God is our creator, so, the Jews have always thought of God as Father and King. Malachi 2:10 says, "Have we not one Father?" Moreover, we recite the Avinu Malkenu (our Father, our King) as part of the daily Amidah prayer and have done so for a couple of thousand years. Both Jews and Muslims are strict monotheists believing in the absolute oneness of God. It was Christianity that introduced the mystery of the triune God. I hope this helps.
SoDaiho,
I know you want to put the abortion discussion to rest, however, ThinkALoud persists....
ThinkAloud,
In deference to SoDaiho's request, this is the last time on this blog that I will address your comments regarding abortion...
lula posts:
Lula posts:
TA POSTS:
The evil of killing by Abortion is a personal sin for the mother, the abortionist and any facilitator....Acts of terrorism is a collective sin for those who commit them and for those who order it. Both evils have far and deep reaching negative consequences for society.
Please let this soak in....
Since 1973, in the US alone, 53 million babies have been killed by abortion....at least 1.5 million performed every year, about 4, 000 per day, and 6,000 on a busy Saturday....As terrible as terrorism, the numbers of dealths caused by terrorist acts don't even come close.
As far as wars are concerned, in one year twice as many Americans are killed through abortion as in all the wars of US history! Every 11 days, more children are killed by abortion than American men were killed in the 11 year long Vietnam War, and every 10 weeks, the number totals the number of American war dead in WWII.
Then you haven't been reading my comments and some of my own blogs. All these evils would be almost eliminated by taking contraceptive permissive sex ed instruction out of schools.
Yes, you're right.......a good lesson for me....and this one from Malachais is one I won't forget.....thank you.
OK, CHristians know God is Father through belief in the HOly Trinity, and Jews know through Malachais, and so
how do Muslims know that God is our Father?
Just a brief answer:
1- I personally believe that the word "Father" in the current Bible and Current Jewish Texts is Not an accurate translation of whatever word God used in the original message.
2- Muslims dont have a "translation problem". The message as revealed still exist in its original form and words in the same language used today by more than 400 million people. And in that message i.e. Qura'an, God never ever referred to Himself as "Father" of ANY thing.
To All that exists in All the universes He Created He described Himself as: God, Lord, Creator, Owner, Judge, Provider, and other similar descriptions.
Muslims refrain from describing His Majesty in any words He did not use to describe Himslef.
According to Him, the only thing common between Him and us is our soul. It is from Him. Every physical atom of ourselves he created and not part of Him or similar to Him in any way shape or form. The word and concept of "Father" is never used by a Muslim in referring to His Majesty.
Hope that clears the issue.
TA, just curious, then, do Muslims understand Allah to be their creator? If so, it's not a stretch to understand Allah as a parental figure in the sense of being a progenitor. I do not believe the torah uses a term that can be translated as "Father" either, but our prayerbook is has a few such references as I described earlier. We are taught though to be very careful in not understanding such words to be literal as we have a prohibition, as do you, against making an image of God. May you be a blessing.
Shalom/Salaam
TA, I just reread your message and see that "Creator" is, indeed, one of the terms. Interesting that it is not possible to understand creator as a progenitor. I also did a liitle reading on sufism (I have a few Sufi friends) and understand their practices to be of a similar aim to that of other mystical traditions, including Buddhism.
I wish we had a few Sufi practitioners on JU; it would be very interesting to get theitr POV on things.
Can you speak to me at all about any contemplative Muslim practices?
It does and rather well. Thank you TA.
No the mystery of the Trinity (among others) was already imbedded the OT. Christ and then Christianity brought it to light and uncovered what was already there.
Christ showed them the mystery of the Trinity. There were many mysteries in the OT that were brought to light by Christ and his disciples. It all made sense as Paul tried to explain it to the Jews showing them these mysteries were now solved with the arrival of Christ in their day. Christ used the OT scriptures to teach his disciples. The new disciples used the OT scriptures to teach others as Christ had taught them.
The Trinity is seen throughout much of the OT. Even Abraham recognized this as we read in the book of Genesis. As is said, The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed.
TA, just curious, then, do Muslims understand Allah to be their creator? If so, it's not a stretch to understand Allah as a parental figure in the sense of being a progenitor.
I have always assumed that you already KNOW that.!!! shows you how doing that is always a bad thing
For any muslim child, the first thing he/she knows about Allah is that He is the One who created him/her. that is before knowing anything else about Him.
Interesting that it is not possible to understand creator as a progenitor Not only it is not possible, i think it is mandatory, by definition, not to. Creation, is to make something out of nothing. A Creator is the one who can do that. On the otherhand, progenitor "produces" something out of himself or out of something already existing not out of nothing ... that is why Muslims refrain from using the term "Father" or "Progenitor" in reference to Allah (arabic name of God). He actually emphatically emphasized that in a short surah saying "He is nither a father nor a progony" (that is Chap #112.... only 4 short emphatic verses ..).
Interesting that it is not possible to understand creator as a progenitor
Not only it is not possible, i think it is mandatory, by definition, not to.
Creation, is to make something out of nothing. A Creator is the one who can do that.
On the otherhand, progenitor "produces" something out of himself or out of something already existing not out of nothing ...
that is why Muslims refrain from using the term "Father" or "Progenitor" in reference to Allah (arabic name of God). He actually emphatically emphasized that in a short surah saying "He is nither a father nor a progony" (that is Chap #112.... only 4 short emphatic verses ..).
ooooh Sodaiho ... you are a kind man ...
I am not even close to be qualified to speak about Sufism.
However, from what i read and know about True Islamic Sufism i can say it is kind of a pure love for Allah and constant effort to gain His love and pleasure. The Moroccan Poet Omar Elkhayam wrote a lot of beautiful poems about that .. one of them is a classic in arab songs by the late great Egyptian singer "Um-Kalthum".
Their contempaltion consists mainley of Zikr (remembrance) sessions in which they say the names and praises of Allah so many times for so long that some of them actually pass out from getting so absorbed in what they say.
They interrupt those sessions for prayers and rest then they resume Zikr... all night from evening prayer time till dawn prayer time. During their rest they think only of Him and His words in Qura'an and of His creations and its beauty around them.
There are fringe Islamic Sufism who go beyond the true one and they go crazy in dancing and swaying while they do Zikr.... that is not proper Mainstream Islamic Sufism ...
that is all what i can say Sodaiho ..... i am really sorry i cant speak about it more authoritatively. Omar Elkhayam poems is a good start if you like to know more.
yes, yes, yes, excellent point, KFC. The first reference can be found in Genesis 1:26...."And He said, 'Let us make man to our image and likeness:..." The plural here insinuates a plurality of Persons in God.
I do not believe the torah uses a term that can be translated as "Father" either, but our prayerbook is has a few such references as I described earlier. We are taught though to be very careful in not understanding such words to be literal as we have a prohibition, as do you, against making an image of God.
I have always believed that neither Torah nor Injeel (original Bible) would ever say that.
and since you confirmed that for Torah, i find it very strange that Jewish theologian would introduce such a dangerous word in the prayers said by lay people !!!!
Words have impact and meaning ... they are not "Just Words" ... they mean something ...
they refrain from saying or writing the word "God" and at the same time introduce words describing Him that He never used?
I find that very contradictory and confusing ...
KFC, Lula: If we seek to know, we do not begin with knowing something and looking for evidence of what we know. The Hebrew scriptures can be read in many ways. One way to examine it is as evidence of a developing monotheism. You are certainly welcome to use your Christian theology as a tool toward understanding these texts to prove your case, but it will only be a logical fallacy.
TA: One of my first books I took to heart after the war was Omar's Rubaiyat. He pointed me to a view that living in the moment was a Holy thing. This directed me toward Zen and Judaism. Isn't it interesting how an Persian text offered a door to becoming a JewBu?
You write:
"they refrain from saying or writing the word "God" and at the same time introduce words describing Him that He never used? I find that very contradictory and confusing ... "
"they refrain from saying or writing the word "God" and at the same time introduce words describing Him that He never used?
I find that very contradictory and confusing ... "
Yes. The commandment not to make graven images is a tad challenging if we consider the written word an image. I think we can view liturgical texts almost anthropologically as evidence of a developing understanding of Deity and how we might relate to Him/Her/It. My personal preference is to us words such as the Infinite or the Absolute. Some Jews only use "Hashem" ("the Name") in referring to God.
Jews beginning at infancy are taught God is One. Words of Torah are likened to honey and so honey is touched on the lips of children to begin to associate Torah with both sweetness and life.
And then we meet life itself and the pain and suffering we can cause each other. Contradicting and confusing. My prayer is that we can move away from a fear based culture to a love based one.
I agree. But that's not what I'm doing when I point to the trinity in the OT. Christ came, showed us and then his disciples also opened up the OT in a way never before seen. They were all Jews. Who better to open up the Jewish scriptures?
It always comes down to the fundamental. Do you believe Christ? Was he a liar, or a lunatic or was he who he claimed to be?
A.) "believe in" Christ? Do I think he was God? No. Do I believe in God, yes. Do I believe Jesus was the messiah? No. Moreover, I do not think the Jewish (original) conception of a messiah is supernatural in any sense.
B.) was he a liar? No. I think Jesus' message in the main is a good Jewish message. Jews have historically taken it that we are partners with God in repairing the world. I do not believe he claimed he was divine. That would have been blasphemy to him. I do think Jesus was a mystic, however, and a contemplative. I therefore think he understood the true nature of things as all things being interdependent and connected and that we are one with God.
C.) was he a lunatic? No. He was enlightened. They sometimes appear to be the same.
D.) was he who he claimed to be? If the claim is messiah, clearly no.
I think much of the Christological aspects of Jesus were assigned to him by his followers and the early church. And would more than likely be abhorent to him.
From your POV he has to be a liar. He did claim to be the Messiah not only in words but also in deeds. When John asked from prison if this was the one they had waited for or should they wait for another, Jesus answer was "go tell John all that you have seen and heard. Tell him the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk."
Most certainly his claim was that not only of the Messiah but also of God in the flesh.
see, you have no choice but to call him a liar then.
That's the fundamental of it all. He was either a liar, a lunatic or who he claimed to be....the Messiah.
based on what? Don't just tell me you believe. Tell me where this belief comes from.
It depends on what you're referring. The early church had it right. They were with him. They spent 3 1/2 years with him in a very tight close bond. Today we've gone away from the early church so if you're talking today, I'd probably agree with you to some degree. We need to get back to where the early church was and strip away all the excesses we've picked up along the way.
You nor I have any idea what Jesus actually said. We only know what the church reported. The church had its own agenda. I am not calling Jesus a liar. If he said he was the messiah he was clearly mistaken.
Comes from this KFC !!!
...."And He said, 'Let us make man to our image and likeness:..." The plural here insinuates a plurality of Persons in God.
Jesus answer was "go tell John all that you have seen and heard. Tell him the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk." Most certainly his claim was that not only of the Messiah but also of God in the flesh.
Have you ever heared a king speak, you must have read at least a little of Shakespeare's writings
that is how mortal kings speak KFC, and you really think when the "King of Kings" speaks that way he actually means that He is a multitude? does that really make sense?
Qura'an is full of verses of God speaking in the same way ... "We revealed ..." , "We gave you ... ", .... "We will be the judge among you ..." ... etc . Few times He says "I" as when he spoke to Moses saying " I, indeed, am Allah (His name in Arabic)", and when He says "Today I, perfected your religion for you and completed my favor upon you ...."
with all that, no one should ever understand it to mean that He is a multitude ...
AND, How does Jesus' answer to John indicate that he was "also God in the flesh"?
Yes he was and is the Messiah, that is his official title in Qura'an. He was raised and yes he will come back ... on all of that i agree with you.
But none of what he said indicates that he was God. The miracles that he performed, and mentioned above, were gifts from God to him .. no different from the gifts God gave to Abraham (walking out of the fire in which they wanted to burn him) or Moses (... many many of them ... parting the Red sea for one!!!) and to Mohammad ... (taking him from Mecca to Jerusalem and ascending to the 7th heaven and back in one night) and to almost every other prophet and messenger including David, Solomon ... etc. none of them claimed that he was God ... and your quote confirms that ...
If you understand this qoute in a different way ... that is up to you of course .... but what he said doesnt give you any justification for it ....
my first books I took to heart after the war was Omar's Rubaiya
Truly amazing !!! i didnt mention the name of the peom i had in mind in order not to confuse you ... and here you are already read it and know all about it !!! that peom is the one that was put to music and sung by Um-Kalthum. if you know Arabic and hear that song ... you get into a trance ... i am not kidding ... the music and the voice and the words are mesmerizing. some people cry and shiver when they hear it.
Isn't it interesting how an Persian text offered a door to becoming a JewBu?
I Dont know how did that happen ... but God has His mysterious ways for sure ...
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
