One of the things in Elemental we've been thinking hard on is how the economic system in the game should work. Elemental is, first and foremost, about building a civilization that happens to exist in a world filled with magic.
So when it comes to building things, we are trying to get away from the classic "N production units". There are, for instance, no factories in Elemental. We want players to really understand just how big of a deal it is for a civilization to be able to produce mounted warriors who have metal armor and metal weapons. It's not just knowing how to build such a unit, it's being able to put together the infrastructure to produce such a unit.
Players don't research types of units, they research technologies. Players then design their own units and those designs require certain resources. A basic soldier with a club is pretty easy. You take a guy, arm him with a big stick. A better soldier might involve same guy, armed with same stick but trained. Now he's much much better but it will obviously take longer to get that unit. It's not about production then, it's about time.
A still better soldier might be equipped a bronze sword instead of the stick. But that bronze sword didn't just come out of nowhere. The metal had to be mined and then forged and then delivered. Of course, the challenge from a game-design point of view is that you don't want players to be forced to micro-manage such things. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not an inventory management game. And so, you make that issue something for your civilization to deal with - not the player.
A given land tile may have a metal resource on it. The player builds a mine on it. That mine then produces N units of metal per turn. That metal then flows to the keep's inventory (in the city). When the keep's inventory gets filled, it then starts getting sent out to other cities (little caravans start appearing on the map delivering this stuff). All of this is automated but evidence of a growing civilization. Players can build warehouses to store more inventory of a resource. A player can also build an armory which produces weapons which flow again into the keep's inventory and then into warehouses if built and then out to the country side to other cities. Players can build roads to increase the speed in which these resources make it (and incidentally, these caravans only go out sporadically so the map isn't going to be full of these units running around and they're not true units, they'll be almost like decoration except when attacked).
So when I go to build a unit, the amount of time it takes to build that unit is going to be based on decisions I made -- what am I equipping him with. How much training am I giving him? And of course, since populations of "cities" range from 100 to 1 million or so, one of the resources units require are people. A village of 100 people obviously can't conjure up a legion no matter how much money and resources you have.
How will all this actually be implemented? That's where the open beta will come into play. Our development tools allow us to quickly implement many different concepts and UI's. that's where a lot of our work has gone into so that we can make changes like this. Players saw hints of this in Galactic Civilizations where we could make dramatic changes to the game based on player feedback but it's nothing compared to what we've built for Elemental.
So for instance, do players want to prioritize where these caravans go? How much control do players want of this kind of thing? Would it be more fun to actually have technology branches dedicated to having governors (not AI, just bonuses to supply) that "manage" this. These are some of the many things that players will be involved in.
The main thing I wanted to get across is that we are not going to have the traditional "N units of production". Players will be able to design their units, design how much training (a small squad of elite soldiers or a huge mob of untrained brutes or somewhere in between?), decide how well equipped you want them to be and so on. It's not about sending out a knight. There is no "knight" unit unless you choose to call a unit you designed that has a horse, a soldier who has been trained, plate mail, sword, helmet, etc. a knight when you save it. How long would this knight take to create? Possibly very little time at all if you have the plate mail, sword, helmet, and horse ready to go. Then it's just a matter of the training time. Otherwise, it could take quite a long time (the game will estimate the time based on arriving supplies).
Hopefully this gives you a glimpse at the strategic depth we want to provide players. The choices for players in how they want to play this game are endless.
For each ressource, we should have a list of priority.
Cities at the top if each list are producing that ressources. The fellowing cities have top priority to get the produced ressource and so on with at the bottom the cities which will be the least supplied. Each list can be re-ordered but ressources producing cities are always on the top for the ressources they produces.
I'm unclear if this is already your intent but I'd like to petition that you don't "hide" those extra factors too deeply. If the main city screen says "9 turns" to build a unit, a tooltip or other second-level screen should make the various components of that time visible so that I can consider taking any action to improve the situation (e.g., changing a caravan route or researching a technology that improves plate mail forging speed, etc.).
- Ash
Can I attack the caravan from Kaplar and steal the enchanted long swords?
Sammual
Why do producing cities need to be at the top of the list if other cities need the resource more badly? I'd prefer a true priority queue, where each city's need is filled in that order, regardless of whether they produce or not.
I think you would be able to, but I'm not sure what the mechanics for the theft should be. If a hero attacks a convoy without any support, who's going to run it? You should also get the option to ruin the bulk of the resources in a convoy if you know you can't get away with the convoy in tow, leaving only a fraction of the shipment for the enemy to recover.
Brad, can you tell us if we will be able to give minor powers to our troops?
For example, if I wanted a unit of Paladins, could I take the knight example and give them magic resistance and healing ... ?
That's a good question and one I have a feeling may need a lot of debate. If magical powers were the sole domain of heroes, it'd make them feel even more special, but it would put an undue emphasis on magic using heroes. I would like to see magic using units, but with very high training times and requirements, such as a magic academy that is expensive and takes a fair bit of avatar mana, so that magic using units have great capabilities but are generally in small units and are rare, so they cover a middle ground between heroes and more normal troops.
I agree with Ash. If I can somehow lower the amount of training time necessary by either constantly importing the goods needed or by using a closer city to cut caravan times in half, then I'd like to be able to view that relevant information to make a decision. Other than that, I think this is a fantastic way of changing how production is done in 4x games (or at least, a reasonable way of explaining why it takes x amount of time to produce a unit of knights).
Need to do crazy research "Magic to Matter"
Cities who don't have access to a ressource they produce should have an increase of unrest being dispoiled of their labor
Just how much owned people in Ukraine feeled when they had to send their wheat to Russia even if didn't have enough to feed themselves. (That was back in the Soviet time).
I agree as well. I know I often want to figure out how these things are set up, so I understand the game mechanics much better (so I know what I am doing) It would be great if the build length is explained in a not so difficult place to find.
I think I will actually pre-order this game when I get home so I can be on the beta. I am as interested as I was with GalCiv 2, but this time I am not dirt poor.
This is true, but why should a smithing town have priority on swords if they produce them over the city you have cranking out tons of troops, or why should a mining town have priority on iron if they don't have any smithies? Cities should deal with their own resource needs first and then try to export any surplus in the case of essential resources, while the emphasis should be on the priorities you assigned to the production in the case of non-essential resources.
I, too, want to be able to view the various factors behind production, like just be able to mouse over the expected production time and see an icon and number for each required component so I know what the breakdown is and how to increase production.
Here's a second concern, relating to the more fundamental point of allowing players to design their own units (and I'm quoting from a post on another forum):
[...]
Not to mention the issue of "Wow, there are 50 swordsmen coming over the horizon. Are they well-armed and trained, or are they a bunch of conscripts?" If I can't tell just by looking at them on the map suddenly this becomes a UI issue
Brad, can you speak at all to how well the game and the UI will handle this sort of thing? Will there be enough constants in the combat system (e.g., swords always having a higher base damage than axes) and will the unit graphics be sufficiently detailed (e.g., showing the weapon being carried and maybe even different postures for levels of training {such as highly-trained men standing at attention versus poorly-trained conscripts leaning on their axe handles}) for us to make some purely visual judgments about a unit's capabilities?
6 different levels of gleaminess . Copper (dull orange), Bronze (shiny orange), Iron (dark gray), Steel (shiny gray), Mithril (dull white), Adamanine (shiny white). Or we could just have the most basic stats pop up, such as attack, defense and the move of the stack. The other stuff would be cool to see, though.
This.
Judgin from the early screenshots we've got this will be the case. And for a quick glance at the enemy power it's enough to know the type of troop and the general power of it.
But detailed statistics will probably be necessary for the tactical battles, though a lot could be made through graphical representation of the units.
Type of of equipement through color and model, enchantements through color and effects, etc. Number of units for strength and a different standards for veterans, etc.
Need UI tooltip giving a Battle Rating of each army so you know the real strengh of each army regardless the number of soldiers in it.
looks good Brad, I was wondering when someone would get around to some of the concepts like this one in a game!
While I was putting together a game doc a few years ago I came up with an almost identical system which I've been working on in my spare time. Come to mention it, the storyline/shard/channeler concept is also nearly identical.. Mind you, when your trying to take the best parts of several games, rejig and put them together ie. MoM, Kohan, Majesty etc.., brilliant minds are bound to think alike..
I don't know too much about the system mechanics now but it would be interesting to see how several of your concepts work or end up working.. a good economics system is crucial though to balancing and creating a believable kingdom feel and if your going to have something more than a simple system, then it might as well be done brilliantly.. I'd be interested to see how your combat mechanics work and how the system scales 'creatures' according to equipment, training and creature relative to a static or dynamic world?
I'd say a simple version of the stats outside battle because your scouts/pickets have to stay undetected so they can't get all that good a look at the enemy, but can get a general impression, while in battle such things as training and equipment are more apparent as swords are drawn, marching orders are reacted to well or ineptly and the like. I'd like to see the equipment reflected on the models, training reflected by banners or something a la total war, and veterancy have a less ostentatious, but still noticable effect, but I'm not sure how to reflect this. My shininess idea would work for the battlefield, just add differently colored auras of varying brightness to indicate the magics applied, and allow a much more in depth view of the unit's stats. I would like to see the more interesting ones, such as morale, only fill in when the enemies are close to your own units, but that's not necessary.
This talking about scouting has made me realize another thing I really want to see. I want heavily armored cavalry to be fairly slow on the battle map, and for a unit's line of sight to get a bonus based on their movement speed, so keeping light cavalry around as pickets and having them patrol is represented accurately. That and being able to have a light cavalry unit retreat back to the largest friendly army stack in their remaining movement range if attacked if they are given a certain command, so you can fan out your scouts without getting them picked off incessantly.
No one has brought this up yet (so far as I noticed), but I'm sure most people here have realized it. This paradigm changes warfare gameplay a lot, and I think in a good way. Rather than just sacking city after city, you have different options for attack and counterattack. If you simply can't handle your enemies dragons, one option would be to cut off his "hatchery". Apparently you don't even need to totally take it out, but block/raid the caravans coming out of it. So when devising your strategy, you can start by hitting any weak supply points. This changes defense, because now you have to consider an offensive tactic that just isn't worth it in many games: raiding.
It seems that you won't see *only* uber armies of destruction, but more varied forces, which is tactically and strategically much more interesting.
Great concept, thanks for taking some time to share it Frogboy.
Makes me wonder if more vital resources, say food, will be handled similarly...?
According to the Gamespot interview the following ressources are confirmed:
Food
Wood
Iron
So prepare your capital to be sieged and starved by my non-flying non-unicorn valkyries.
Let's discuss propogation speed, and use a simplified example:
M-C-F
... where M is a Mining Town, C is the civilization capital, and F is a new town acting as a border fortress - where, for whatever reason, I've decided I want to train some troops. These troops require the mineral resource mined in M.
Mining Town, once I've built the appropriate town enhancement (the mines) will begin producing, let's say, iron at a rate of X units per turn. It stores that iron until the town keep has a sufficient store (however that is defined) before it starts releasing the iron to trade caravans. That means it could be several turns before Mining Town is even ready to start exporting iron.
At any rate, it's eventually ready to ship iron to other destinations, and it creates a trade caravan that will move between Mining Town and Capitalville. Once the caravan arrives, what happens? Does it stop there, and begin filling the coffers in Capitalville until that town has "enough" before new caravans - Capitalville to Fang Fortress - are generated? If so, that means it'll be another several turns before Mining Town will start shipping iron out to Fortress Fang,* which is where I really wanted it to go to begin with.
* This could be further worsened by the caravan being generated at Mining Town and destined for Fortress Fang - now the caravan would need to travel the X turns to Capitalville and then another X turns to Fortress Fang, for a total new delay of 2X turns. A more time-efficient routing would be to dispatch the caravan from Capitalville - temporarily depleting its stock of iron - while simultaneously dispatching another caravan from Mining Town. Thus, two caravans are on the road, but the Fortress Fang recruitment corps need only wait X turns to create the next unit, rather than 2X.
Let's suppose, for instance, that Mining Town begins generating caravans for both Capitalville and Fortress Fang. Each endpoint then gets only X/2 units per turn, but the outstations (FF) gets its initial shipments of iron much sooner than the "trickle down" method. Unfortunately, this means as your civilization expands, the availability of resources at any given city drops off extremely quickly. This, I hypothesize, leads to a game where the control of resources becomes increasingly (overwhelmingly?) important - you need, for instance, 3 iron-mining towns in order to assure your moderately-sized civilization's supply, and this gets more complicated as the number of resources increases; otherwise, expect routine shortages in your troop construction programmes.
I think the workability of this system - especially as it expands beyond a one-resource-three-town simplified example - will depend very heavily on how efficiently raw materials are routed through the network, how often caravans are generated (and how many resource units are on each), and how players control and interface with the transportation network. Manually editing a particular city's level of "enough" (say, set the capital to have 0 required Horses in order to flush a large number towards your knight-training city) would be powerful, but beyond a certain point would be ridiculously micromanagement intensive.
I deal with transportation networks for a living (mostly air, but surface as well). Efficient network design is a titanic pain in the posterior. There are, literally, thousands of companies which make scads of money designing logistics solutions for other people; large portions of the armed forces have as their sole task making sure enough bullets are in the right place at the right time. In short, this an area where "realism" is immensely complicated and, probably, not a whole lot of fun.
Seeing how this idea develops over the course of production will be interesting to say the least.
I expect the ability to manually create a caravan will make it in there. It's just not a sane thing to leave out, simplifies the logic process greatly.
That said, it would be nice to create priority sites with a simple switch for each resource, multiple tiers in a perfect world. That way you could set your front line armory up to be first in line for metal storage by defaulting it to a higher priority than the capital. It would also allow you to keep a deprived area in a key location supplied with shortfall offsets first, depending on how complex the upkeep mechanics are for local populations.
Good post, Elvenshae. karma for you!
It does seem like the resource production, allocation, re-allocation, transportation, and management of all of this could be terribly complex. Seeing your viewpoint doing this professionally and finding it tough makes me a bit concerned about how fun this will be, how easy it will be to manage and understand, and how much work will need to be put into making this concept a reality.
Maybe it's all done now, though. I guess we'll get to test it in the beta!
I agree.
It does seem like the resource production, allocation, re-allocation, transportation, and management of all of this could be terribly complex. Seeing your viewpoint doing this professionally and finding it tough makes me a bit concerned about how fun this will be, how easy it will be to manage and understand, and how much work will need to be put into making this concept a reality. Maybe it's all done now, though. I guess we'll get to test it in the beta!
I did like the logistics system in Stars! Back in the day. It was complex but if you were a Stars! player spreadsheet gaming was something fun for you - yes?. Anyway I assume something similar but with far more options and user friendliness would be implemented in this title. On a side note, the logistical system in RailRoad Tycoon (RRT) was pretty damn good and very user friendly. I suspect something along those lines will be what we get.
I've never heard of Star! I'll have to research it a bit. I'm no opposed to spreadsheet gaming, although nowadays, that shouldn't be necessary since the game should be able to handle the number crunching and information providing for you.
Regarding RailRoad Tycoon, that's good to know the logistical system in that is a good model. I'll have to read up on that as well. Since Caravans are akin to trains in terms of transporting goods, this system makes sense. I hope the Devs have seen/played this.
And now to you, Spartan!
He means Stars!, not Star!.
Suppose each city has is connected only to the nearest city in each direction. Obviously rather difficult to do as an algorithm, sorry Stardock.
Now, this should balance all resource out across the empire fairly quickly:
For each connected city.
If have not sent a caravan to that city in X turns. (Other factors, such as distance and presence of hostile armies?)
For each resource that origin city does not need.
If connected city needs resource
Add all of resource, up to the maximum that the connected city can store, to caravan.
Else if resource in this city is greater than connected city.
Add half the difference, or up to the maximum that the connected city can store, to caravan.
Send caravan.
There might be problems with attractor points, oscillating patterns excetera. I'm not sure. But it should work decently.
Edit: Is there a code formatting option for this forum? All my significant white-space disappeared on posting.
@LR - Thanks! Also sorry for the typo the first time I typed the name. Night Edge is correct it is "Stars!". You should note it was later renamed "Stars! Supernova". It went into the freeware realm a several years ago when the update to the second version Supernova got canned. Anyway you can download the game from here. Under the version dropdown you can see the original. As it was updated the core elements that made it wonderful got slimmer and slimmer in my opinion.
Nonetheless it is a sleeper classic game really only serious grognards would really know about. Graphics were not it strong point to say the least.
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