Another discussion from the general forum...Initial Problem: If a player's avatar is killed, what happens to the player?Solution 1: that player is eliminated, and all their cities/armies/etc revert to neutral or go *boom* or something. I believe this is the current idea for Elemental based on the GameSpot Interview ("If you die, it's game over.")- con: this has made it very easy to "short-circuit" challenge by ganking AI avatars because the AI was stupid or it was just very difficult to defend any one unit against a determined attack- pro: provides a way to eliminate inferior players and win the game without having the potential tedium of taking over the whole map in the conventional mannerSolution 2 (e.g. MoM) : player is moved to a "limbo" where they cannot cast spells or are otherwise severely limited, and must cast a "spell of return" to return to the normal state- con: copyright infringement - con: in MoM, it was rare for a wizard to actually succeed in casting this, so it was sort of just prolonging the inevitable, but it made it harder to win with 1 city versus 40 cities just by ganking a wizard (if they had enough, they could come back pretty fast)- con: may be tedious to take out the remains of the player's empire and thus win the game even when the victim has no reasonable chance of successSolution 3 (e.g. AoM SM) : if player has a suitable city (with a "tower" in the example), the avatar respawns there next turn. If no such suitable city exists, the player is eliminated.- con: may not feel like avatar death is meaningful enough- con: may lead to tedium if the victim has too many towers, even if the victim has no reasonable chance of successAlternate Solution: if avatar dies, the player can expend a certain quantity of "essence" to respawn. If the player doesn't have enough essence, the player is eliminated.- pro: based on preliminary info, essence is a very limited resource so the number of respawns could be very limited, or zero if the player has used a lot of essence to re-seed terrain and whatnot, so avatar death would still *really* hurt- pro: the AI could take essence level into account and realize that it should protect it's avatar at all costs when essence is too low, hopefully making it hard to gank-eliminate an AI player without forcing the AI to never use the avatar on the field.- pro: you could still short-circuit an obvious-but-tedious endgame by killing avatars, you would just have to kill each one a couple-three times instead of only once.- con: takes developer time, though hopefully not too much to just do a check on death against the essence valueThoughts?Thanks,Keith
I disagree with all the cons
In Dominions, you have the same system, except coming back takes time, so it's a startegic choice whether or not to call back your pretender god. So:
-pro; Additional strategic choice.
And it's VERY common in Dom for a pretender to die and be called back.
Overall, although one must check how it works out, having one unit that, if you kill it, eliminates the oppoennt sounds very bad. Why would you make your own unit weaker knowing that if it dies, you've lost? It sounds like the only reasonable strategic choice with such a system is to make your channeler as strong as possible and use it to trump weaker channelers (all by himself if you can rush tha fast).
Furthermore, if you can control units in tactical battles, it will be worthwhile sending for instance all yoru archers against shielded infantry, having the archers all shoot at the opponent channeler, get slaughtered by the infantry but kill th channeler. Result of the battle: You lose 20 units out of 20. Opponent loses 1 out of 10. You have won the game. At least make sure that a channeler cannot be targeted easily (no "Fire commander" orders as in Dominions I).
Overall, having game over if avatar dies sounds very bad to me as it looks like you can lose due to a lucky unit killing one of your units, and you will likely end up with a single viable strategy, of big tough channelers.
The way you phrased your post made it sound like it was a surprise.
Because (presumably) the power gained through creating cities can overcome that loss -- e. g. the payback is bigger than the cost, if it pays off.
I don't think "spell of return" would trigger any copyright infringement, but there are certainly other ways to do it. I agree with LDiCesare on not agreeing with those cons.
I do think the spell of return (or whatever alternative) should be easier to cast, but have better computer analysis or method of destruction. I liked the essence threashold mentioned earlier. At the same time I like the idea of being able to come back and sneak attack the players.
It is mentioned somewhere in another thread something about AI controlled towns being their own nation. If we want to use LotR as a model fantasy wizarding world, the dark lord was able to return with the help of corrupting other nations (such as the white wizard). So if a player has enough stored power upon death, maybe it could even be possible for them to corrupt AI towns or enemy controlled towns where they have a lot of influence. It would make "influence" have more features than just converting a town peacefully or creating unrest. If a player is banished, but still has XXXX amounts of influence, then they can live on through the influence and work on returning. I do not think it should be set of amount on death, it should be like it can never drop below xxx amount, but you can still move about and act in the areas of influence. You can exand resources to try to drop your corrupted artifact into neutral towns too to hopefully respawn your fallowing.
Personally, I dont mind the concept of game over when your channeler dies. But I do prefer that their be safeguards you can acquire to make that harder, beyond the fact that your channeler is very powerful.
They need to be effective but also limited to some degree. Here are a couple of spells off the top of my head that could fill the role of protecting your avatar.
Escape: An early spell, which you cast on yourself and then forget about it. The spell stays in effect until it is used, or other wise consumed/dispelled. While its active on you, a portion of your power is dedicated to it, weakening you slightly. When you are killed, you're teleported to your capital just before the moment of death, barely alive (major penalties should be apply, requiring a couple of rounds to recuperate). The spell would need to be recast at this point. It's generally effective, but it does weaken you slightly, and is ineffective if the enemy comes knocking at your door. Obviously if its easy or instantaneous to switch your capital, something would need to be done so its not abused by someone with many cities.
Reincarnate: Works like escape, except that you chose the town to return to, and there are no penalties upon return. What could possibly be the downside you ask? Well, its random, you might come back as human...or maybe you'll be the first magic wielding blade of grass. No one knows, its a mystery. After the first use, the spell could have an increased chance of bringing you back as something not human...at which point it could be game over...but I kind of want to play the game as the blood thristy magical butterfly, who can flap my wings and make hurricanes.
Clone: You make a copy of yourself. You're clones share your power, they simply have their own hp and can move about freely from you. Maintaining the clone is a signifcant investment of magic on your part, and if you make multiple clones they start to become unstable, potentially exploding or going crazy and blowing up a town...and then exploding. The spell lets you have a presence on the front lines, without endangering yourself, but you are weaker due to how taxing the spell is.
Some sort of safeguard would be nice though...even if its neither of these ideas.
So do you suggest that your clone is as powerful as you are in the sense that if the original dies, the clone can continue running the show in your stead? I guess I don't see why that wouldn't work.
Yeah, if the whole channeler leading the battle thing is how I imagine it, then I would be afraid to throw them at people in fights without a sufficient escape method. I imagine they would need a lot of mobility spells just to ensure they don't get stuck on some far-away continent with no reasonable means back in the present time. (This happens to my armies in certain games all the time. I hop on a boat, sail around the world to pick a fight, then discover I need to get back home and have no functional means to do so. Its ok with most of your army since that is the sacrifice of waging war around the world and being streched thin, but the channeler should always have ways to be near the front if so desired.
I personally don't like the idea of Avatar death=game over. Let's say ships are in the game and you want to move your channeler to the other side of the ocean when all of the sudden, a technologically superior ship fires its guns at you. Ship dead, game over.
The best option for me would prob be the option to choose what kind of victory options you want enabled before starting the game, that way, everyone can choose whatever they want
"From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee." - Herman Melville or, if you prefer, Khan Noonien Singh.
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Given the game premise, I'm also on board with the notion that death should be permanent.
- Ash
Norhg, if the channeler is hard enough to kill (including in AI hands), perma death is fine.
We'll just have to see in the beta how hard it is to kill one, it's difficult to project now.
Yeah, I seriously doubt that getting him into a ship and then letting the ship blow it up would result in a game over. These channelers are pulling the world back together, there is no way something as trivial as water is going to stop them. On that note, I imagine they would teleport everywhere and the only reason one would die is if you let them or someone hits you with some sort of super-nuke.
The supreme commanders in the game by the same name resulted in perma-death, and I imagine the channelers having more long range abilities and summoning powers so you wouldn't even need to get as close to combat as in SupCom. It is also a turn based strategy games, so letting the battle come to you when you can't handle it would have to be the result of a mistake.
I think death should be permenant, and your kingdom should shatter, but I have ideas:
1. You bestow roughly 80% of your power into a amulet as four barbarian civillizations form an alliance against you. you're being overrun, and your kingdom wouldn't survive till the end of the season. You pass the ring onto your trusted advisor, who takes part of the kingdom and reunites it after the barbarian horde has taken over.
This would create an AI civillization with your former advisor at it's head, wearing the amulet which gives him powers. He wouldn't be as mighty as you, but it's a way for your civillization to stay around after you die.
of course, the advisor would have to re-take your kingdom, but at least it's still around.
2. Is there family in this game? if there was, you could pass the throne off to your offspring.
3. Just one massive, globe changing spell that damages the world, like if your a insanely powerful Ice elementist, you bring an Ice Age.
4. Is this game a seriesd of missions, or is it open ended, like GalCiv2?
The problem with the revenge on death idea is that a majority of the matches will be 1 player vs the AI. I personally dont see much point in exploding and taking half the AI kingdom with me, since their entire kingom, and everyone else's for that matter, is destroyed when you hit return to main menu. It just ceases to exist anyway, so except for AI spiting the player, I don't see much use for it outside of multiplayer. Multiplayer, it makes some sense... But in singleplayer, it does nothing for the player except make them think 'Crap, I could kill the AI's avatar and eliminate him, but I could just fence him in with a few walls since he is now powerless and I don't want to risk my economy to the penalty of killing him.'
Permanent death I agree with. Steward Denethor said it best I think... "He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons."
I strongly dislike the idea of avatar death=Game over.
Rather I would prefer that somehow you are able to release your spirt and reform it to a physical body once you have enough power. (Similiar to Sauron after the battle of the last alliance.) He fled, and then was able to reform himself a LONG time after he lost that physical body.
I'm all for the permanent death, but it can be implemented very poorly. I'll wait for the Beta to see for sure.
One thing I like in games is "surprise". And even better thing is "surprise for surprise"
OK, something happened and my channeler died. My kingdom lost its ruler; part of it becomes neutral (or merges with other faction) and the rest is waiting for the conqueror to ransack it. But dont forget one thing.
Your channeler died, but his essence....has not. He distributed it over objects and literally he is STILL HERE. I say once your channeler dies you still have a chance to DO something. You still have some degree of limited control about objects that contain your essence. And lets say, if you manage to gather majority of these objects in one place; dada, you could return back to life. And united with this essence. So, to really DEFEAT the enemy chaneller you have to destroy all traces of his essence !
So you won and he died, but theres still a problem with the rainforests behind his keep. He created them. You have to either transform it with your own, or destroy it. If you do not, in a long time he gets back, even shorter if he somehow manages to pull more of his essence in one place. Lets say, he chooses the rainforest as "gathering place". With current quantity of essence, it would take 100 turns to reincarnate. If I pull this and this essence, i can shorten it to 20 turns. Fine. There could be some kind of moving the energy between objects, I imagine this someting like a minigame that could resemble fishing. You wait for a moment, then focus and pull the essence to you.
If the timer counts 0 and its time to get back to life, the essence gets back to the channeler (or not all of it, some gets lost). The created landscape vanishes and the vast desert is in its place again, objects and characters lose their abbilities; its a simple reversal. The channeler is back and at the beginning. He has nothing except for a rather large essence pool and he can do something with it.
But much has changed when he wasnt there
This idea could be edited in many ways. We can define that for reincarnation we need: some amount of essence and a focus object or character that will define the actual location of reincarnated channeler. Things that must be took cared of are 1) the dead channeler has something to do while not actually playing 2) he must not get back too early. If theres very little essence left in the world so that reinarnation is not possible or it would take 1212382197 turns, he is simply defeated for good.
I like the idea of having a single keep/castle/fortress where you can be reincarnated however for game play purposes it should only be limited to ONE per faction and any one time, this prevents spamming them.
I also like the idea of having very loyal subjects use a summoning cerimony involving essiance to bring you back. Above all I think the reincartion thing needs to be a LONG, hard drawn out process.
If your/enemy avatar does die, I think your empire should just go neutral or elect itself a new ruler, then you will still need to fight for the spoils.
Aren't you quoting the loser who eventually lost his country to Aragorn, the king who led his troops himself and acted himself directly, putting himself at risk personally?
The more I think about it, the better perma death sounds. My main concern is that it not be too easy to "gank" an avatar, particularly an AI avatar. Assuming that, the only exception I'd entertain is the "One Ring" sort of spell that represents a major turning point (and tradeoff) in the nature and power of the avatar, and would only be possible by mid game at earliest.
I dont like the idea of death=game over simply because of one sentence: Sh*t happens. It could be a potential source of frustration and theres the before-mentioned problem of AI hero-ganking. So I say reincarnation should be possible, but not easy or for free or too soon.
My suggestion I wrote just few posts up also has logical basis I believe. If channeler dies, his essence can either survive or die. If it dies, then the death would be just like the thing someone mentioned before he deslikes; the kingdom would "poof". The only difference is, it would be "poof" we have never seen before; the whole land would "poof". I dont want this aswell.
So we have dead channeler but his essence survives
Actually, Denethor commited 'suicide' because he had tried to face Sauron directly through the medium of the Palantir -- and lost, seeing only a distorted vision of the future which filled him with dispair. Personally, I think that the conflict also ended up warping his mind, leaving him insane (hence the marks around suicide), but the evidence for that is highly subjective.
Okay, quick word from the person who sees everything as interconnected:
So basically, you're saying your LOYAL (morale) followers (governors and heroes) would work to return a weakened version of you to the world? I like this. Further, create a mini-game for the 'defeated' player to try to preserve his essence against wraiths and demons and such while hoping his minions were loyal and strong enough to bring him back.
Honestly, though, your channeler shouldn't BE on the front lines. Or walking about without his Dire Bear guards. Or surrounded by his life-sucking Guardian Shades, or whatever.
As for 'whispering commands through Essence', that seems to be something very far up the Life/Death research tree.
What about a noncombat unit, like a Sarcophagus or Ark, that becomes the channeler? Or a mausoleum, if you feel the spot should NOT be mobile?
In any event, I see this as a MONUMENTAL (possibly once per game, like a wonder) building task. It's not the sort of thing that Evergreen the Gardener is going to do from his carrot farm. He's going to have to send out his Berserker Bunnies to conquer towns with Locoweed resources (to make more Berserker Bunnies) and get a substantial reserve of mana and physical resources, as well as a LOT of research.
I know this is a bit of necroing but ... no sense in wasting a good thread
What about the ability to cast some sort of spell that as you are dying, puts your essence/spirit/will into the enemy killing you (not an enemy channeler for balance) and turns them into you slowly. While the process is ongoing, you would be weakened as you attempt to overpower the host.
I can just see it now. I battle other Channelers for days and days and finally I am able to kill one and what happenes.... he keeps coming back to life over and over again....
Makes me shiver on how long clean up will take. If you get beaten it,s because either you were sloppy or you are to weak. Dead is dead if you ask me.
Neither MoM nor Dominions are boring despite the spell of return/call god features. Coming back costs a lot. Cleanup is usually more painful when you have 342432 provinces and 1231231231 remaining armies to defeat with your stronger and more numerous armies. A single guy is not going to make cleanup harder. It'll make winning a nationwide war on a single duel much harder.
I've nerver seen a AI wizard in MOM winning the game after he cast the spell of recall. Usually I would just take the time to conquer all his towns and when he came back he only had 1 town left and was weaker than a babe. So I say again... what's the point...
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