Right now GPG is in the process of implementing generals. Before I spoil it and tell you how they work it would be cool to hear HOW you guys think they should work?
Now, bear in mind, there's balancing and scope involved here. While on paper having assassins play like they do now and have generals play like a Supreme Commander style RTS might sound good, that would be impossible to balance and probably not very fun in practice.
So what would you guys like to see? After enough comments, we'll talk about how we're doing it and then see what tweaks we can make based on your feedback.
I like most of the ideas here. I don't think generals should be able to control the creeps already in the game, but have full or almost full control of those that spawn thanks to them. However, there might be a few units where it is more cool that you can't control them, like corpse explosion spawning 3-5 worms, or whirlwinds roaming the battlefield attacking enemies and friends alike, or stationary units / buildings, or temporarily disabling or creating AOE in an area, like hot lava or poison spikes from the ground, or single target mobs that will pursue your ability target until it's dead like elementals and clay golems and zombies and other things like that. I guess the point is, that while it would be nice to have 100% control of at least some of the units spawned thanks to generals, I don't see why it has to be either that or AI for everything. Mix it up!
Ok, so feedback on what I'd like to see in the generals.
Well for generals I always envisaged direct mouse-click control over their minions but never imagined any control over the regular portal creeps that might have been suggested. It just makes sense to me to give them as little control as the assassins have over the "team" creeps, otherwise all assassin teams will suffer from having no-one around to control the portal creeps.
Being able to assign various tasks to your minions by AI would be nice but I would still need to be able to directly control them with the mouse too, units under AI are very predictable and that could be taken advantage of and would let the enemy manipulate a generals minions in a way the general would stop if he could.
I'd like for the only cost of summoning/creating/giving-divine-birth-to most units for a general to be time, gold should be spent only on global unit upgrades, unlocking units & unit abilities. Some of the stronger, less numerous units might cost some gold too, but there should always be a viable "free" unit.
I'd expect the number of units a general can have at a time to be capped to encourage more agressive use of units. I'd like for that cap to be quite generous and the unit creation to have increasing "cost" (be it time, gold, etc.) as you approach the unit cap, so the generals aren't always going to try and run on a full unit cap.
Finally I'd like for the minions of a general to be reasonably hardy for their damage potential, given a large number of AoE damage skills on the assassins can wipe out priests and a fair few can wipe out catapults in a single use. Perhaps generals could have a way of increasing minions hitpoints as the game progresses, be it by upgrades or perhaps the minions would simply grow stronger as the general increases in levels.
Will there you have it straight from star dock the death of the RTS side.
So on this web site there is section called features which shows a barracks could you please remove it before other people buy this game and think it is something that it clearly is not.
1.) Without a barracks how will the general produce an army? Or do you feel we don’t need that in the game either.
2.) So if the units are intelligent to help the general but little micro where is the RTS side of this game? Call the general what they are RPG necromancer and be done with it.
For all those who say that generals should be able to give orders to generic creeps, what about this problem: if there are multiple generals on the same team, which orders will take priority?
One solution I see is that it might prioritize based on proximity. Another might be that certain generals have an "affinity" of sorts for specific kinds of troops, for instance a support general might command priests, while an attack general might command soldiers and/or angels, and a siege general might command catapultasauruses and/or giants.
However, I think generic creeps in general shouldn't obey anything other than flag captures (namely those that would primarily open up new paths for them to follow). I think generals should only have control over their specific types of troops (so a vamp might have zombie minions or spawn or something, while the thorn lady has her plant minions). This prevents conflicting orders being given to the generic creeps, who would then be allowed to serve their real purpose, namely to provide a constant stream of mooks who are balanced against each other with only the demigods allowing any headway in their endless wars.
I think not all generals should have the same abilities. In other words, make one demigod a builder general. Make another a unit-spam general with lots of easy to get weak units. Make another one a commando-style general, with a few strong units. In short, don't give all generals the same generic abilites, but specialize them (just like the assassins). This adds variety and makes for more interesting games (especially when you consider that within each demigod further specialization is possible based on skills and items).
Honestly, I don't think Generic creeps should be controllable unless generals can build specific generic creeps. and then those specific generic creeps should only be controlable by whoever built them.
And Iprometheus, he's saying he wants a balance. I think maybe what he could mean, or at least what I think would be awesome, is that you can either send them to specific targets and do whatever you want with them, OR you can set them to do what they wish so you can focus on your general. That way you can micro-manage as much or as little as you want to.
Frogboy, am I understanding you correctly (or maybe even giving you ideas)?
1. They could get their units from the portal or the stronhghold. The construct of a barracks that units magically appear out of makes far less sense than the portal. One they appear out of a barracks but come from no where, the other way it is easy to say they caome from the planet below and are requisitioned for battle. Truthfully it makes more sense and holds with the fan fiction. If you desperately need them to appear out of a barracks building, then use the stronghold.
2. Ever played some of the more modern RTS games like kohan or company of heroes. Hell 95% of RTS games have an aggessive and defensive stance which has the units do more than stand there and die if you don't tell them what to do. Units with any brain should know to attack enemies that come into range. The goal is NOT to have a clickfest but to implement strategy.
No traditional Barracks, no direct control of non-minion creeps. Let's talk about something else -
From Frogboy:
Ideally an assassin will always be able to crush a general if minions are elsewhere. However, a good general with a full complement of minions specced for damage (as opposed to capping/scouting or support) should be evenly matched against an assassin of the same level, or maybe even a bit more powerful. Some thoughts on how this should work: - Getting and keeping a full unit cap of DPS minions should be difficult, time-consuming, and costly. If the unit cap from level 1-5 is ten minions then a general who makes it to ten minions should feel powerful enough to take on a level 3 Unclean Beast and almost powerful enough to take on a level 5 Unclean Beast..(As a level 3 UB I'd try to hit-and-run the minions down to a group I can take on all at once or get close enough to the general to kill him before his minions can take me down, the point is that neither player could take the outcome for granted by just wading in). - Minions should dissolve when their general dies, either all of them at once or one every few seconds. Maybe the remainder should instantly flee to base, too. This keeps a general from respawning instantly powerful and keeps them from causing too much damage while dead. [not sure on this one. How should minions be handled when their general dies?] - Allowing specced and upgradeable minions creates build-flexibilty the same way complex skill and unit trees do. I can spec my general to cap flags and mark/harass enemy positions, heal allies and stun/slow opponents, wade into battle at the head of a crack platoon, or any number of combinations thereof. I can upgrade my scout minions so that they can cloak but it means my guard/dps minions will be low-level, etc. Flexibility is fun. Within this, and as previously mentioned, each general should have strengths and weaknesses that play out across abilities and minion spec ranges. - Also as previously mentioned (changed my mind ) A) Minions should be loosely tethered to generals to prevent complete turtling at no cost or There should be significant costs for generals being too far from their minions (no xp gained outside given radius, minions much weaker, etc.) Let's get this thread rolling again so the devs will tell us what's *really* going to happen
To address your ideas, here are my thoughts:
I think more things need to be in this equation. A general with 10 units should be ok to go up against a lvl 3 UB, but with the correct buffs, he should fell good about going up against a lvl 5 UB as well. He should have major buffs for his troops, see below. It is also important to realize that though 10 units should be able to take down a demigod, many will get dropped by that demigod, so if 10 do not do a ton of damage, by the time his hp are at 1/2, the general's creep units with low hp numbers could very well be cut in 1/2 as well. This means that while the demigod will have 1/2 health, he will have full attack and the creep will have 1/2 health ( actually 1/2 units) and 1/2 attack (due to 1/2 units). Unless the demigod can call reinforcements from the battlefield, an even match will not be even.
I think minions should run back to the crystal of health and wait for the general to come back. This prevents the enemy from taking out the general (who should have low HP) and then making the general useless for even longer. If as you stated, it take a long time and a lot of money to get a full complement of creeps, then if you kill the general and that kills his creep, that makes a huge difference. If you have to wait to respawn and wait for the troops to be brought back (and it takes tons of gold and time) then you could double or triple the "effective" respawn time and make a general completely nerfed. Think about it this way, assassins don't come back to life with half attack and armor; they don't loose their items, why should generals?
I totally agree.
I don't like an artificial tether, it makes no sense in real world terms. Let the tether be an area effect buff. This gives flexibility and choices. If I can capture with my minions, I can send them out, I can send them to one while I grab another, or I can work with them to capture a flag. These all offer advantages and disadvantages, and compelling choices make games and strategy more fun.
I guess what I'm looking for would be a balance that says a general with max allowable minions at a given level should be evenly matched with or a bit more powerful than an assassin of comparable level - and that it should take skill and dedication to reach max level cap in a timely fashion...However that works
Agreed. I also think that minions should all drop what they're doing and just run back if the general dies. it makes sense.
The flip side of this is that for balancing purposes maybe there should be a big debuff on minions too far from their general, so that they are ridiculously easy to kill - that way they are good for capping and recon but not much else. My reasoning is that if you allowed minions too much power away from their generals then you have a nightmare swarm of minions cleaning up while their five generals sit comfortably in the base...This can be tweaked per build and DG, but as a rule it's important, imo.
You don't want generals to feel safe, because it breaks the game.
Yah so minions should come off the field while the respawn clock is running. Should that be an instant thing (teleport) or take time (minions run back to crystal, which allows a canny enemy opportunity to bring some down) or maybe somewhere in the middle (minions retreat at +50% speed)?
I think that minions far away from the General simply getting no backup from the general, like auras, will be (or should be) detrimental enough to not need a debuff. Also, if the General is too far away and not getting XP (which I think is another great idea) Then having 5 generals sit in the base with their creeps out are not going to level and not going to ever be able to really back their creeps up, leaving the general SOL later in the match.
for the retreat. If I killed a General, and some of his minions were at really low health when he died, I'd want to get a few last hits on them. I think that just like any other Demigod, the creeps should have to retreat. If the General didn't get them out in time, that is his problem. I don't think they should have a speed debuff making them slower tho.
I disagree the general's power comes from the swarm attack and the the swarm being able to capture items. The general should not be played as a melee combat. They are the field Commander and should only buff the creeps or Defend the base. Else all you have is an assassin with creeps. We need to focus on the General as a field commander.
After a lot of thought on the swarm creeps I feel that the General should summons them as opposed to creating them. Here is why if I the general summon the creep when I die that army dies with me. And here lies the strategy if my swarm army is to power for the assassin then he has no choice but to rush the base and kill me. If he does and lives then all my army but the portal creeps are gone for 45 sec or what ever the cool down is.
If the buff is large enough then there is no real need for a debuff. My thought is the buff should be BIG, including a health/armor and attack buff. Again, this forces the demigod to get in the field and keeps the focus on the demigod and them being the center of the game.
The teleport should be reserved for Demigods. Units should run back. A slight boost to speed might be good, but the Demigod who took out the General Demigod should get a couple pot shots at the guard creep.
the creeps from a dead general should just become mindless normal creeps having lost their commander
Thats probably the easiest and most sensible approach.
If you do that, you have to allow generals to respawn with a base number in their guard creep or make the creep cheap and quick to respawn.
I would go with the idea that you have your creeps following behind or around you, and attack what you attack or rather everything hostile in sight
Sounds very awesome so far!
The problem with this is that the generals would have no weakness to exploit other than just running over their base (which is the point of the game anyway). You might as well not have the general. The way it should work is that the general's strength comes from it's guard creeps, but it has to be on the field, making it vulnerable.
"the creeps from a dead general should just become mindless normal creeps having lost their commander"
Hmmm, so if the five generals on a team bring their full commands down a lane and then all the generals die, the minions will start to act like allied creeps? Saying early game each general has five creeps (minimum), and each unbuffed creep is as powerful as a minotaur: that's 25 extra minotaurs in one lane you now have to deal with before level 5..Coordinated kamikaze attacks ftw!
And as Trigeminal mentioned, this idea might not work well in a model where minions are valuable, since the general has to replace any minions lost when he respawns, even if he has the ability to recall the ones he had before. That's more than ok, other models can work, too, but it's good to examine a mechanic in light of the other elements in a given model.
So as I see it we have a few models of direct-control generals going in this thread so far:
1. Valuable Minion
a. Generals create/summon each minion (or squad of minions) individually, at some cost and difficulty.
b. Minions are not easily replaced if killed, but can be classed (scout, warrior, priest, etc.) and upgraded repeatedly.
c. Minions may possess individual or group abilities and may synergize with the abilities of their parent DG.
d. Upon the death of a general, minions are removed from play (retreat to base, become frozen and indestructible, etc) until general respawns.
e. Minions may operate in groups independently from their general, but will be far more effective when the general is close by. Additionally, general will earn no or partial xp from minion kills when not present. 2. Cheap Minion a. Generals create/summon minions cheaply and in bulk b. Minions are easily killed and replaced, and if classed or upgradeable - in groups c. Minions possess few if any individual abilities, with the possible exception of healer/medics or special units. Synergies with the parent DG are still possible in this model. d. Upon the death of a parent general minions also die or evaporate e. minions may operate in groups independent of their general effectively, but are more effective when general is close by. General will earn no or partial xp for minion kills when not present. 3. Traditional RTS General a. minions are generated by general or barracks, price depending on class/type. Base minions are very cheap. b. minions are easily killed and replaced on an RPS scheme (archer>swordsman>horseman>archer, etc) and if upgradeable - by class/type c. minions have few if any special abilities outside of special classes. Synergies with parent DG are unlikely in this model d. Upon the death of a general, minions are either killed or revert to normal allied creep behavior until general respawns e. Minions operate almost entirely independently from the general, who is responsible as a unit for building barracks and other specialized buildings edit: also minions earn xp for generals even when general is far away [If you guys feel that some elements should be tweaked, deleted, or added for any of the above (or I missed a model completely) please feel free to post it.] Meantime, I don't see how #3 can ever work in the setting of the game we have now. It's good, but it just doesn't fit in a game that also incorporates player-character. I really like # 1, but I could live with # 2. What do you guys think?
Alright, here's what I think the general should play like. I'm not disagreeing with anyone else's ideas, it's just the way I'd like to see it.
A ) The General has minions, not creeps:
B ) The Generals skills will effect wide areas:
To summerize, I see the General as a support class. One on one, he cant take on an assasin but his abilities would allow him to easily turn the tide when uncontested or do major damage to another player that's not watching for his creeps. Earlier in the thread there was a player that equated a general to Overlord, I think that's a good sumation. Limited troops that improve as you level and good support skills.
You'll notice I didnt mention costs, that's because I REALLY cant support the 'buying' troops. What if you get a bad start? unlike an Assasin, a general could potentially get screwed up for the rest of the game because he was losing troops to fast. I think this money would be better off being spent on equipment that could improve spawn times, minion health, minion movement speed etc.
I really cant get behind the 'builds spawn points' thing either, personally I think that could get unbalanced or misused somehow. Not EXACTLY sure how, but that's just how I feel.
I think as a special ability for a certain 'General-like' Demigod, placing a permanent or temporary gateway for additional Minions (unique or generic...) would be a very cool ability. Depending also upon the Demigod and balance, it would also be an interesting play mechanic to have the gateway destroyable like unto a structure, of finite duration, or with the capacity to unleash/summon 'X' number of Minions before dematerializing.
Such would give a limited amount of Minion deployment control to that Demigod. Definitely an ability of a Demigod, not an overall 'General-like' character facility.
That would balance simply by virtue of their killability by Demigods themselves - lots of damage potential in such a small army, but also lots of experience levelling potential for an enemy.
If you are going to deploy masses of Minions, your strategy should be to cause damage to enemy structures and advance strategically across the map, not to level-up your own Demigod so much.
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