Hello,
on of the bigger Ea guys just told us yesterday that the upcoming EA games (in this case Red Alert 3) will come with SecuROM. The difference is that it will be a bit more userfreindly:
He also said that this is planed for all upcoming EA RTS games.
So, what do you think about this? - I know we have a big talk about CPs, but what do you think about this way EA is following now?
diviator
I think its throwing crumbs to people where they should be throwing big fat loaves of bread. Basically they increased the number of allowed hardware changes from three to five, after that its the same customer support crap they have now, you still *have* to have an internet connection to activate the game which renders that whole "no active internet connection needed after activation" sort of moot.
They need to get rid of that DRM crap altogether. As was said countless times already, pirates do not care about their DRM schemes and crack them in two days, the only people who have to deal with it are paying customers.
I really want to know whats in it for EA spending money on copy protection with literaly 0% succsess rate. Any other buissiness you spend cash on a contract for with a ZERO % succsess rate would probably get you fired...
At the moment to me it seems like the people who want to pirate, pirate. The people who don't like DRM pirate and the people who buy it anyway, buy it anyway. So the only group that can be infulenced by DRM are the middile group. And adding DRM is not the way to get them. Do the companys REALLY think there is a mass of people that would pirate something if it contained no DRM?
"I WAS going to steal this, but since they put DRM in it I'm not going too" - how many people say this?
"I WAS going to BUY this, but since they put DRM in it I'm not going too/gonna pirate it" - far more common!
He said computers btw, meaning computers. The way it works is by putting together the main hardware of a spec and if that changes it counts as a diffrent computer. I.e. The point should be that you can install it as many times as you like on the same computer (and up to however many others). Sometimes this seems to go wrong however.
I'm hoping that things such as the enormous tidal wave of negative Amazon ratings on Spore will dissuade them from this path. But who knows.
Given the ratings of Spore, above and beyond the furore about DRM, I shan't be buying. I might have, just to have something to play with my 4-year old daughter, but if I can't guarantee that it will survive a GPU upgrade and a disk crash after it's initial install, I'm not buying.
Maximum props to Chris Taylor for taking his game to Stardock to publish. As an aside, reading the fuss about DRM is what made me aware of Demigod - someone mentioned it in a Slashdot thread about Spore.
GAME in the UK have knocked Mass Effect down to a mere £19.99 ; cheaper than even the Jersey-hosted mail retailers (who avoid UK VAT and can thus provide a very cheap product). This was cheap enough to qualify as an impulse buy (pun intended), but I still feel uneasy about the online activation. You only have to go over to BioWare's forums to see how negatively their customers feel about it ; BioWare games usually have immense longevity and replayability, but I tend to revisit them again after long breaks in play - as story-based media, you want to allow the story to fade a little so it remains fresh. Mass Effect has a 15GB install footprint ; that's bigger than my entire Steam folder! I want to be able to uninstall it, but I can't be sure that won't burn an activation.
You could argue that limited activations tied to hardware hashes supress the entire PC gaming industry ; games traditionally make you want shiny new hardware, shiny new hardware allows developers new opportunities. This DRM dissuades you from upgrading your hardware because it might just be enough to lock out the games you upgraded to play smoother/shinier.
I can see some of EA's dilemma ; a modern gaming rig has a vast supply of content to choose from - all the way back to the 80s. Once in a while I'll wheel out an emulator and play something classic like Deuteros or Wicked. One problem for all modern PC game publishers is that it's entirely possible to feed all your gaming urges on old content, if you are prepared to compromise, shop around, take hand-me-downs from your gaming dad, download "abandonware", etc. Are EA attempting to forestall this effect on the next generation by making sure that the games of today, are not available for the generation of tomorrow? They can't hope to succeed, as any pirate will tell you, but I imagine that if you pointed it out to them that their titles now have a "shelf life" only as long as their activation server support, they wouldn't be in the least bit distressed.
The only way forward for the PC gaming industry is forward - better content (not just shinier, but more fun!), better deliver, better market penetration. Games that you can't return, exchange, sell on or keep for posterity are not the way forward.
Here's a compromise I'd be willing to make on the matter ;
Publish games with DRM. Do not require it for install, just play. Include a DRM removal tool with the game ; but encrypt it. Lodge the decryption key in escrow with a lawyer that will release your decryption key on your corporate demise or if the server goes offline.
Otherwise, the Gamers Bill of Rights seems to be an excellent idea. I have one revision I'd like to see ; point 6 says
"Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent."
"without their express consent" - This is just an invitation to cram an obscured clause right into the middle of the EULA and call it "express consent".
"hidden" - If you're installing something "hidden", that is by definition, without consent - if you asked me nicely, there's no need to hide it.
"drivers" - Using drivers in protection is somewhat dubious anyway - it's done to run things in kernel space. Well, anyone with enough knowledge to be using a debugger isn't going to be dissuaded by that. And installing drivers can lead to operating system instability, security vulnerabilities, the whole nine yards. And of course, they stick around when you remove the game.
"other potentially harmful software" - You should never install potentially harmful software ever, even if you somehow managed to sneak my permission. If you admit to it, you are probably guilty of a criminal offense in many places. Now, all software run outside of a sandbox, even running with limited user rights, is potentially harmful because it's imperfect and MAY rampage across your hard drive replacing your work with the secret naked texture set from the game... but it's unlikely to be deliberate, and you cover your ass on that pont in the warranty. Giving people a get-out for installing "harmful" stuff "with permission" is not just redundant (because you agree to it elsewhere in the EULA), but also sounds like someone who want's to install something that's not just potentially harmful, but selectively and deliberately harmful.
So in short, I'd replace point 6 with
"Gamers have the right to expect that games won't install drivers (except for hardware supplied with the game), and won't contain software designed to limit or damage the normal functions of the operating system or other installed programs when the game is not running."
That seems to allow enough wiggle room to disable the operation of debuggers and the like during game operation without carte blanche to mess with the rest of the OS. I would be prepared to conceded the drivers issue as long as they only function during game operation.
Just another shit sandwich from EA. This is exactly the same DRM as they have on Mass Effect PC and Spore, only instead of limiting your activation to three they're giving you five. How benevolent of them. As long as they insist on using this DRM scheme I'm still not going to buy any of their games. Idiiots.
I will simply not any title no matter how much I want it with such DRM on it. S-ROM is nothing more than SF in a nicer suit as far as I'm concerned.
I did not but ME, even after leading the Amazon rebelling against a certain writer and I will not buy Spore or any other title published by EA or other dev house with that crap. I'm a PAYING consumer treat me like you want my business not like I'm some kind of low life bum who happens to want your product so you make me prove time and time again I'm worthy of the privilege of experiencing your product.
The "negative" rating thing on Amazon will not dissuade anyone from grabbing the thing...it is stupid to think otherwise.
I think I'll one of these customers: "I would like to buy it, because I love the game, but with with kind of DRM/Copyprotection I simply won't do it."
The bad thing is that is hurts a bit. I always love these ugly videos and bad story, because they were just good for laughing. Command & Conquer was also a good game for just gaming and not thinking. Well, the good side is that I'll think about buying Sins of a Solar Empire. It has an online activision, but I'm treated like a thief.
Well, from what I've seen posted on various sites, it has deterred people from buying it.
No it doesn't.
You can play Sins right out of the box without any internet connection. However, if you want patches/additional content or to play mutliplayer games, then you have to register it on-line. (it's still not an activation per se though). But the game plays just fine in single player out of the box with no activation/registration required.
I had been considering picking up RA3, actually. Looked like a decent RTS for some friendly compstomping with my brother.If there are activation limits... I'll pass. :/
I hope Dead Space doesn't get this as well.
Click on the external link, you can find above and read what EA wrote.
I recieved Mass Effect as a gift. Two weeks of tech support later, they sent me an email that said SecuRom intentionally won't let the game un when I have Norton Antivirus running because it might discover the methods SecuRom uses.Of course, disabling Norton didn't help in the slightest, but that's not something I liked to see.
Their best suggestion was to take the game back and get the 360 version. Of course, the game stores here don't take back opened PC games, nor do I own a 360. I was so angry that I opened bittorrent. 10 minutes later, I was happily playing the game. It's downright stupid that that worked so wonderfully compared to their own system.
Now I can't seem to access the entire ea.com domain for who-knows-what reason, and I just tried to play the Red Alert 3 Beta. Doesn't work because it can't activate.
I was almost ready to get Spore until I remembered the DRM. No chance I'm getting that now.
Well if it gave like 20 activations it wouldn't be bad.
5 still isn't enough. Nto to mention what happens if they take the activation servers down in 5 years?
I'm STILL playing UT99 and WC3 and i've done things that would of required a new activation more than 10 times on them.
UT more like 20 times!
I've actually bought 3 copies of UT99 though lmao. First one was free with sound card(yeah i got my sound card im still using that long ago), one was $10, the other was like $8 or something.
Any amount of activations are unacceptable. I still install and play games that I've had for fifteen years, that I've reinstalled countless times. Some from companies that no longer exist. If they would of had such activation I'd be screwed or forced into searching for cracks.
EA will keep on not getting it and blaming low sales on Piracy instead of their own DRM which forces people to piracy. At this point it is obvious they will continue this route and as long as that's the way they do business then I wouldn't feel a slight bit of remorse in cracking/pirating their software. I wouldn't buy spore in the first place as it looks to me like it's a little too much like the "cutesy" Nintendo games built for kids, but I would get RA3. It will be another lost sale if they institute the same crap with RA3. Not that I won't be playing it, but I would of bought it had they not forced the DRM onto people and pushed me to find a "clean" copy. It's real simple if I can buy a copy without the crap, I'll buy it. Otherwise kiss my ass and come get me I'll be a pirate.
Arrrhhhh me mateies, tis thee time to be jolly and drink me a keg o' rum it tis! There be moare pirates joinin me crew err day and then all but nate will stop me n' me crew findin thar treasure!
Umm... we are all talking about the same pirates right?
I wonder how many people buy these games not knowing about these limitations on their ownership until after they get home (if even then). Does it say anything on the box?
There are a ton of consumer protection laws out there, many of which will give you attorney's fees if you win, even in many of the states that usually don't allow for winning attorney's fees (they did this because otherwise lawyers tended to be unwilling to take such lawsuits - why on earth would a lawyer represent you and go through all that effort to only win 100 dollars. but if he can also get his hourly rate for all those hours he put in, well, suddenly he's game.).
Anyways, if you buy a game and get suckered into such a thing, and there was no warning on the box, then when you discover the limitations after you opened it and could no longer return it, and the retailer wouldn't accept it as a return, then go to small claims against both the retailer and the game company. Heck, they might not even show up -> default judgement. If they do business in your area, like if they sell their games there, then your local court is a proper venue, you don't have to go the state of their headquarters or anything. If you live out in the boonies, its even more likely they won't show up. And if the retailer shows up, he might even inadvertantly help in your case against the game company in order to get himself off the hook (it wasn't me, it was them!).
Even though its small claims and you don't really need a lawyer, see if you can find a consumer lawyer who'll work on a contingency basis - if you win, you get your 50 bucks back, the company might not care too much about that, but if you get attorney's fees as well, then your lawyer gets his insane 250-500 an hour for the 20 hours he'll claim he put into the case. Way more than the 50 bucks you paid to get the game at any rate. Enough people get way more than the 50 bucks they paid for the game back, and the game companies would notice that. In the very least, they'd have to start *showing up* to all these lawsuits to avoid default judgements, and that in itself would start eating into their profits. Maybe, just maybe, they'd feel the pinch enough to stop treating their paying customers like criminals. Or in the very least start warning people, on teh box, about what they are getting into *before* they've paid any money, like is required on most consumer goods.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/images/comic_mass_effect.jpg
It says "Internet connection required for activation" on the front and "internet connection, online authentication and acceptance of end user Lie (EULA) required to play. To access online features you must register blah blah blah blah."
Nothing about the specifc implementation of SecuROM.
Well for what it is worth I the real deal for the activations limits is simply to stop second hand sales.
hopefully this kind of thing will be challenged in the courts and put down at some point. If you're right, then imagine if they started doing this with books. Books are physical tangible items, treated as consumer goods, but w/intellectual property w/in. You buy the book, you aren't buying ownership of the IP itself, that stays w/the author, you're just getting a limited set of rights. That's all fine and dandy, as it has been, and as it should be. But imagine if books had a EULA, though of course the book is shrinkwrapped and you can't read the EULA until you get it home, and your retailer won't take returns of books after the shrinkwrap is opened, so if you open it, read the EULA, are horrified by it . . . tough. 'By reading this book you are saying you agree that you can only open it up, and only up to 2 people can read it' etc... (Reminds me of little kids talking to someone who's ignoring them - 'if you agree that you owe me 50 bucks, don't say anything'). Libraries wouldn't be able to stock any new books anymore, because they'd never be able to get any sort of right over the book in the first place in order to do so. And you can't sell this book you bought to a used book store anymore, as the eula said you agree to burn it when you've used up your uses. If you try to sell it to a bookstore, some equivelant of the RIAA or MPAA will come after you, and you'll find yourself in court, for having violated this very fairly entered into contract. Used book stores would cease to exist, because there'd be no more such thing as a used book. Never mind the first sale doctrine, and other limitations to copyright, we'll just EULA our way around it to pretend its a matter of only contract law rather than IP law.
Then again, digital books, are doing just this, and getting away w/it. DRM'd digital copies of books. At least that DRM so far isn't nearly as extreme as this EA stuff, nothing like saying 'only 3 uses, only 2 people' etc..., but they do limit it to a specific device or program and what not. You can read this book as many times as you want, let others read it too, so long as you do it on our 500 dollar device. Don't get me wrong, I love my kindle despite all this, I read books once and never again, and I don't go around selling used books even when I read an actual tangible one, so it don't really bother me so long as it goes no further than limiting me to the device. Plus, not all books are DRM'd and I can get books from any source I want and put them on the Kindle, even if I got them for free, off the net, or from a competitor. Heh, boy, how sad is it that I'm actually happy about how relatively little my rights are being dictated to me by a private party? EA is the devil that makes all the otherwise would be devils look like angels. hehe.
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I have considered this nightmare and more - often. That is why I for one always voice my concern for such practices and actively encourage others to consider such things and to speak up about them.
They also do this to us, because they believe it would prefent the priates from cracking it. Who cares about the thoughts of a paying customers? - They have payed the money they wanted so they don't need to care about them anymore.
I have read something about a more user-friendly SecuROM in Sacred 2. It still uses forced online-connection for the installation and some kind of limited installations. These limits can be compared with the DRM of iTunes. You have 2 limits, but if you uninstall the game you will get one back. Well that what they say.
Back to EA's version:
- They said that it will check the hardware-settings to identify the PC. So, you can install it on a limited number of PC as often as you want, as long as you don't change more than one hardware in this PC.
Spartan, i would absolutely love to know what the hell you were smoking when you wrote that first paragraph.
Really? They force you to disable your antivirus?!
That's about as paranoid as you can get. Not to mention utterly stupid. Nobody should be forced to disable their antivirus for any reason whatsoever. In fact, you should probably call Norton and tell them legit software is trying to disable their antivirus software.
Looks like their DRM is already broken. I've said it before and I'll say it again: DRM does not work. All major forms of DRM have been cracked. Not to mention you were a completely legitimate user forced to look like a crack!
It's sad to see that DRM is ruining the experience for legit users. The pirates, on the other hand, are getting away scott free because they know where to find and get cracks.
Let me be blunt: DRM punishes legit users and has zero effect on pirates.
That's just the plain truth. Doesn't matter how well-intentioned anybody is. It's not working.
They believe wrong. The pirates are cracking it, and will continue cracking it for the forseeable future. It's a cat and mouse game that the DRM authors will never, ever win. Not with current computer architechture.
Looks like a stylesheet from a poorly designed HTML/CSS editor. It's a testament to why I'll never. ever use a WYSIWYG editor to create web pages.
Fore more installtions you will have to contact the customer-support and they will deal with it case-by-case
That's wonderful... except that their customer-support is unavailable. Don't believe me? Goto www.ea.com and look up their customer support phone number. Go on. I'm waiting.
...
Didn't find it, did you? I eventually found it with a google search, but it was on a gamespot page where people were trading rumors about what the support number was (there were six or seven listed... only one worked). Oh, and when you get there you cannot talk to a human being. At all. At best you get re-directed to the web page.
So the only support you get is if you register and leave a message on their help system. Which turns out to be little better than writing a question on the bottom of a stone and chucking it into the middle of a lake: You still won't get an answer, but at least you are spared the stress associated with expecting one.
After my last computer fried, I could not find the tiny cardboard piece that had the serial number on it. Congradulations on finding something even more easily lost than the game box, btw. So I wrote to EA support, hoping they could find it for me. I mean, its just common sense - if they require you to submit it for playing the game, then they have it. And if they have you submit an email address, they technically can do exactly what every ISP and most websites do with their passwords - send it to the address associated with the serial number.
They say they'll contact you within 24 hours. After 9 days of complete silence from EA, I found the piece of cardboard. If I had not found it, I would have been cheated out of my purchase price (I had not yet finished a playthrough on my old comp when it died).
So yes, if you like an EA game a whole lot, then buy it. But the first thing you do when you get it out of the box is you copy that serial number to the manual, to the packaging, and to the CD. Also have a google documents account and copy it into a central list of serial numbers. Because if you ever need EA to even lift a finger to help, you are toast. And yes that means those max installations are IT, the most you will ever see, despite smiling promises to the contrary.
So before you pay the money, be darn sure you can live with the game becoming a coaster in a few years, under normal sircumstances. In unusual circumstances... I hope you hurried up and finished it when you had the chance.
Not to mention you were a completely legitimate user forced to look like a crack!
Worse, you are an person who's inexperienced with piracy 'forced' to engage in it. Which means you have a much better chance of being caught than a real pirate. Your ISP gives you one warning when you are caught, and if you do it again your internet access is cut off. Permananently. That's the best outcome... there is also a very low chance that you'll be sued to be made an example out of.
No, it doesn't matter if you have a legit copy of the game and are merely looking to make it work... according to the law, you are just as guilty as a person looking to commit theft. EA's surrogates did not write that law that way by accident.
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