Man SoaSE is a great game that you can keep playing over and over again. So does anyone think that Stardock should make a sequel? Well that would be cool! Imagine a whole bunch of fetures to discover, a better graphics engine (not that its bad). So should Stardock make SoaSE 2?
Maybe Sins2 would allow modders to mod the AI, allowing for a competition of sorts to occur between modders with the "free market" of players deciding which AI mods are the best. Of course, the ultimate solution is to play against human competition on Ironclad Online, which is never really scripted. I hope that a Sins2 improves the online multiplayer and makes it more inviting and more accessible to people, attempting to match players up based on skill and experience. This is an area where the game could use a huge amount of improvement.
1 thing I'd really hope for in a sequel, given a few more years of tech-development would be a real 3D environment. possibly even without fixed warp-lanes. so basically as realistic as possible. And throw in real 3D visuals on top...
Should still be a game of course, so with all due simplifications.
A possible scenario could for instance be that only "huge" ships can actually go FTL, so in systems you would have small ships as "homefleets" whereas you would only have very few ships that could actually travel from star to star. So you wouldn't have massive fleets that could basically be at any point in a massive 3D-world.
Or assume that FTL isn't even possible and only have the game take place in a single starsystem.
Some such
I think they would be making a huge mistake to implement wholesale changes to a winning formula like that (see Epic Games and the Unreal Tournament sequels).
The things they can change without changing the basic game play are items like the number of planet types in the game (Sins Plus mod--make it optional), giving each race another capital ship or two, giving each race another frigate and another cruiser to choose from, adding a race, adding a campaign, adding some new game types (how about some sort of Sins capture-the-flag game?), and of course numerous improvements to the online multiplayer. (Allow for up to 7v7 please.) That would all be more than enough to keep them busy.
As a technical matter the game needs to be coded for at least dual-cores and to include settings options to make it much less RAM/CPU intensive so that games don't lag later in games (Sins Optimization Mod, but better and even less demanding).
Speaking of planets, does anyone else feel that planet types should be more relevant to the game? For example, what difference is there between a desert and terran planet? Not a whole lot.
You have to research how to live on arctic and desert planets. (I think.) Perhaps, genetically modifying your citizens' DNA to cope with the different climates would make more sense? (Why would anyone want to subject themselves to subfreezing temperatures, I don't know.)
The big difference is that you can have a higher population with a terran (more credit income). In contrast, with a desert you can have up to 9 Logistics spots (as opposed to 6 for a terran). Those 9 logistics slots are very valuable if you understand how to build a good economy. Basically, you should use all of your logistics slots, at every planet, filling them with trade ports at planets that allow you to have a longer trade route (or that don't compromise the trade route). Deserts = trade port $$$.
In terms of population/logistics slots, all things being equal, the value of a planet's potential contribution to your empire and your economy goes like this:
a campaign
and of course upgraded ai, ive actually found that my allies send ships to help my attacks relatively often, the thing i have a problem with is how two factions who i am at peace with will continue fighting each other instead of taking advantage of the allied victors condition and calling a truce...
I'de like to see a new engine put in place. I want to see real-time projectiles as a pose to deal the damage of the burst when the first shot is launched, not considering whether the projectile physically hits or not.
An auotmatic battle movement engine, which makes ships move into tactical positions and keep moving throughout the battle instead of them only moving if their targets aren't in range.
Speaking of ships, multi purposed ships. The average frigate, even nowa days, has more than 2 cannons and is capable of fending off both strike craft and other ships.
Considering their budget for Vanilla Sins and it's engine was $1m, I think they could do this easily but will they be willing to sacrifise CPU and memory, which is already short...
but what would happen to the surving inhanbts??
i hate when that happens because you get the under attack misshion but cant help...
The technical challenge is to make it very scalable to meet everyone's interests and needs. There are people who play only single player with powerful computers who have time to zoom in and view lots of delicious eye candy, and they want to see moving turrets, planetary elevators, and exquisite details, etc., and who can blame them. Then you have people who play online multiplayer who are on older rigs (like me) who could care less about the eye candy and just view it as a challenging competitive strategy game and only need (and want) to see unit icons while having no CPU, RAM, or GPU-based lag and very smooth performance while also having a first-rate online multiplayer user interface.
They need to figure out a way to allow players to choose from both options, which pleases single players with powerful computers while allowing poor folks on older rigs (single and multiplayer) to play the game smoothly, too. (There are probably still people on single cores out there, and of course, LOTS of people want to play on their laptops, which tend to have integrated graphics chips and aren't all that powerful.) Allowing for good performance on a wider range of hardware means increased sales.
I think one thing SoaSE always needed was a Campaign
It also needs a custom campaign editor system so that the mod community can create downloadable campaigns. (Let the fans do the work and make it easy for them.) I'd also like to see them take the best custom content, and, with the permission of the authors, incorporate it into the game via optional patches that people could easily download and install over Impulse.
Another thing that hurt this game, IMHO, was putting stuff in the hidden (by default) Application Data folder. That made it harder for people to add custom maps and mods. I think Epic Games got it right with the original Unreal Tournament--it should all be easily accessible and very transparent. In UT99 and UT 2004, custom maps go into the "Maps" folder which is part of the main game's folder. Texture files go into the "Textures" folder, background music goes into the "Music" folder, etc. The games game files went into the "System" folder. I think devs should use the organization of UT99 as a model. (Screw the Games for Windows certification and the Application Data folder.)
I totally agree Dirty. The one thing about that is the Program Files is locked to all but admins. I think it should be somewhere easily accessible like a Games folder that has folders for all custom content but I really didn't like it when they first started it with putting all that stuff in the My Documents.
At least put a shortcut to the mods, maps folder somewhere with the install or instead of the button that "Shows mod Path" have it actually open the mod path. Same for maps and settings. A button in game that will minimize the game and open the file or folder.
Campaigns I never did like but have been reading that a lot of people do. Could be something that modders start. Like a 10 part missions mod with victory conditions and can only build curtain units each mod. When that mission is complete DL mission 2 and so on.
A real-time projectile engine would allow for even more stratergy into the battles, however I can see where you're coming from. I think they should develope 2 modes to the game, one that loads meshes and all the particles effects and whatnot to make it look fancy for all the high-end SP users, and one that doesn't, one that just loads the 2d stuff and displays attack lines all (and more of those kinds of things) for all the low-end (or not) MP users. They should also be compatible with each other so that people can play on the same servers with different modes.
Making a campaign would be a waste of time. The game brought out 2 expansion (and their probaby capable of bringing out alot more) WITHOUT including a campaign in either, and look how successful they were, while most other games bring out campaigns and aren't succesful.
Someone (maybe even the developers ) could/should bring out a mod that removes all the meshes, all the particle effects, all the "fancy" things you are refering to and replaces them with 2d representations and just a simple line-textured beam to represent something firing on another thing. I reckon this is possible without any major modding involved...
You don't need be a professional to find out where the mods are and make the folders unhidden, and you CAN put the maps in the "Maps" folder. The only difference was (with entrenchment and diplomacy) that you had to add them to the galaxy.manifest.
In my opinion, hiding the modding folders did not hurt the game at all. Bringing out mod tools allows the game to mature a bit, yes, but it also prolongs it's life, which means it'll take longer for people to get bored and want a new game, which means less money. (Please note I'm an XP user so I didn't experience more than having to unhide a few folders before revealing the mod, and I don't know what happens on Vista/W7, I'm just assuming it's not that different)
-Kris
The only change I would make is to give it support for multi core CPU and GPU systems and AI improvement.
For MP there should be ability to rejoin game and while you are not in AI takes over and bigger matches.
If game changes a lot it is possible it will be different game in a way for worse and more complicated = harder to master for casual players. People complain about balance and with more unit types balance is even harder to achieve.
Some new races would be nice as well not just in terms of name but in terms what planets they can colonize or what they need to build their fleets (eg crystal race which can produce more crystal than others but main price in ship is crystal not money) That would really beef up diversity of races in MP matches.....
Double post
We don't know how much the lack of a campaign hurt sales. Many, many people have requested a campaign. At least it should have some sort of a campaign editor; fans will do the work. Also, we don't know how successful those expansions were; we have no idea how well they sold. It's possible that they weren't as successful as what we might think.
There is a "Sins Optimization Mod", but getting people to d/l it and play it online is like trying to herd cats.
I think you would be surprised at just how many Sins players are computer illiterate. As a custom map maker, I encouraged players to play my maps online, which required people to download them and then put them into their Application Data folders. Many people couldn't find it or it was hidden. People were able to walk them through finding the right place to put the custom maps, eventually, but it was a big pain-in-the-ass.
Super Capital Ships - In other words, the Super Star Destroyers of SoaSE. Of course, they must be super expensive as well because it would be considered probably the equivalent of a very mobile starbase.
Dynasties - This gives me a Dune feeling, which also adds a bit of personal touch since aside from ship Captains (generic NPC's) you would also have your children, brothers, and sisters commanding the capital ships. When a capital ship explodes, you don't just lose a resource, you can also lose a brother or a sister for that matter. That could also be a victory condition, killing all of a dynasty, and the left overs would just turn into a remnant without leadership. Assigning a family member to a planet boosts it's capabilities as well.
New Races & Techs - Pretty much self-explained.
Thoughts...
Included with the Dynasty option that I mentioned earlier, there could be a noble rank option, with Baron, Count, Duke, and Emperor. Basically, it would be a "feudal war in space". When you defeat a dynasty you move up in rank (Baron -> Count -> Duke -> Emperor), and when a dynasty is defeated a new noble family is introduced at the lowest rank, therefore there will always be a fluctuating diplomatic relations, and fluctuating power struggles between upcoming dynasties and the already established dynasties.
With this method, a race (dynasty) can't be wiped out totally, they'll make a return eventually with a new dynasty leading them, so you'll always be knee-deep in politics and warfare while you try to ascend up the rank to be the newest Emperor.
Eventually you'll have to combat the Emperor and his dynasty, which could consist of several capital ships, a super capital ship, and a horde of normal ships. Once you defeat the Emperor and his dynasty, you'll be able to either A) assume a 'Imperial Victory' or crush the rest of the galaxy since as Emperor - since as Emperor you wouldn't spawn more dynasties under you at this point - it would be clean up time.
in my opinion one of the few fundamental flaws with sins is delayed damage mechanic that makes all weapon effect variations purely aesthetic, its underwhelming to see tons of plasma bolts hit a ship and its damage drops only after the bolts are gone, would be great if this were changed in the theoretical sequel
another as mentioned thing is the lack of campaign, the back story is nice but it's kind of empty without a campaign to move it along
graphics are important to me, i use bailknight's mod, i couldn't stand the vanilla effects after getting it, sure most of the time the game is played zoomed out but its still nice to watch a battle for a bit.
Well, pretty much just read through this whole thread.. haven't looked at it since it was virtually new... Heh...
I'll definitely have to agree with wanting a campaign, and editor to go with it. Storytelling is just fun. Not really necessary for Sins, obviously, but fun. More mod-ability in any regard is good. 'Course, we know Sins has just about as much as anyone could want already, but there's always those limits we hit that we flail at to get around still. Especially the AI. A mod-able AI really seems like a must.
Would also have to say I'm with the group not wanting the ground combat. Sins is all about the epic space battles, it ought to stay that way. There's enough on planet combat RTS's out there as is. Though I would like some other option of taking over planets besides glassing them. Always felt that was a little silly when I want to take the planet over. I'd rather subjugate, bribe/hire, mind-control, or whatever else might be a fitting method to take over a world I intend to colonize anyway. (Heck, culture would be great for non-lethal taking over too.) Cause glassing just seems like something you do when you have no interest in the planet.
Working turrets with limited firing arcs to force ships to move around more (and just ships moving around in general) would certainly be nice too. As would the more realistic projectile stuff. Would be nice if accuracy was something other then a glorified damage bonus, and shots could really miss, and just hit whatever got in their path.
At this point, I think the dual+ core and 64 bit compatible issues are a given as something that will just have to be part of the game. So I don't think that's something we'd really need to request. New/better graphics is sort of a given for newer games as well. Although I suspect we'd still end up with graphic mods all the same. (I think, generally, the default graphics are more cpu/ram/etc friendly and optimized. While things like bailknight's and VE&DE are focused more on being pretty over any sort of optimization. (Heck, I can see explosions in grav wells of planets I haven't even explored yet with'm. Not optimized in the least. But oh so pretty.))
I would also like more diversity between the races, and new races/factions would be nice as well. Of course, the more they differ, the harder they are to balance, but it's not like it can't be done! (Or that we won't find ways to do it ourselves if we still don't agree with the balances.)
As for the titans/super caps and the like... Honestly, I just never know personally with those. As much as I personally love the massive ships, balancing that sort of thing into a fleet is damn near impossible unless they actually install limits.. like the only one, period. (Which, as far as I know, isn't doable at present at all. Though maybe someone's managed now, haven't really checked.) As it stands, with pretty much only playing using DS, I'm just happy having capital ships that aren't made out of colored construction paper. Of course, because of that I have a habit (because I'm one of those who usually plays vs the AI and coop with players, instead of vs players) of running around for quite a while with only one capital ship for clearing out and expanding, while relying on stationary defenses with the cap as backup when needed. Which is really nice to be able to do. But at the same time, I'm running around with just one capital and no support.. and that admittedly seems rather silly. Add in something even more powerful and it's just a pain to balance, to put it lightly.
New ships, or more versatile ships have a similar problem. I'd love the ships to be more versatile, as well as having new ships. But then you run into the whole overlapping or repeating purposes issues. (For example, if all the cruisers had anti-fighter weapons, which would make sense for them to have, and those weapons were good enough to just defend themselves decently (not even exceptionally) from fighters/bombers. Would there be a point in ever making flak frigates? Making sure there IS a reason, while still making those cruisers' weapons useful would be extremely tricky.) But, I can't say I still wouldn't like new ships. Certainly at least 'updated' ones, to show that time has passed within the game's world.
Had other thoughts, but they kinda all derailed during typing this. Oh well. Back to hunting for those stories...
I dont think i would mind 'more versatile ships' (eg, ships having friggen anti-fighter weapons) if the anti-fighter weapons worked like they did in ww1,ww2 e.g. throw massive quantities of stuff up in the way and hope something hits. (lets assume working turrets, limitied firing arcs, realistic projectiles, and solid strike craft).
I mean... honestly, all the epic space battles in tv, and, in this game, are based off of ww1 and ww2 navel battles.
soez... maybe we see what happens when we see things in terms of the golden age of the battle ship.
The Yamato had 24 5' guns and 162!!!11 1' guns. (and big guns, but we are looking at SC here)
It was sunk completly by... "strike craft"... 11-13 torpedos, 8 bombs.
The USA lost ~10 planes.
So... even though the Yamato has shizztons of anti-strike craft weaponry (and a destroyer escort, also loaded with guns), (lets call it, 1 kol 2.0 + 8 HC 2.0 + 1 LF 2.0)... it wasnt enough against the attacking 386 strikecraft.
in other words, whatever flack 2.0 is, your going to want em!
(dude. if you havent read that wikipedia article, you need to. itll make you teary-eyed. )
hehe, one of those 8... well, destroyers, managed to escape the battle after its front end was BLOWN CLEAN OFF... by STEAMING BACKWARDS all the way back to japan. I dont think anything can get much more bad-ass than that.
(that reminds me, in sins 2, when weapon x hits location y, I expect mesh damage. (fracking hell, the radar dish on the side of your ship just got hit with a slug the weight of a small car! dont tell me that radar dish is still going to be there!)
i would like to see better management of the z-axis, right now the ships dont really feel like theyre in space
So what is Ironclad actually doing right now? I'm sure patches for SoaSE aren't keeping them that busy.
We haven't heard much from them, but supposedly they've put Sins and space-based games aside for now and are currently working on a land-based RTS.
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