How many words do I need to have this in Demigod, and it not have any silly recipes?
Picture = thousand words.
There should be a max of like "3 points" or whatever to use for upgrades, PER ITEM. So.. you can only reach 1 of the final paths. At least that's what I think.. otherwise the prices would need to go up after each point you spend, or something..
If an item has more than 2 stats then the different ones would be grouped together in either path.If an item only has 1 stat then one path would upgrade that, the other would add a new one.(or just all items should have a minimum of 2 stats.)
Another good point about this is that it'd reduce clutter in the shop. About 40% or so of the items in the shop are basically slight variation sof each other, or upgrades of each other. It would stream line things a lot. =] More accesibility = great.
Rolling over Items would bring up something like this:
No. This is the most intuitive way to fit that much depth into the game while still letting the player process it slowly enough that they can make good decisions in game. What about putting in the tooltip what attributes of an item can be increased? So underneath the bonuses it gives you immediately, it has in one color the tier 2 upgrades and in another the tier 3 upgrades. Does this even make sense?
I think its a really great idea. nice one innociv!
I like it, imma go photo shop my skill trees idea now!
So if I interpret your picture correctly, the 'up' arrows indicate what the first two upgrade paths will focus on, and the "Upgrade Path X" statements refer to the special bonuses gained at the end of each of the three upgrade paths? Agreed, simple enough. But...
...I think this is where I tend to disagree the most. In a nutshell, without other changes, I think the "multiple path" idea creates too many final items. Even if the developers end up limiting equipment to only one of each category equipped, 3 choices in each equipment category still gives you 243 possible combinations. 4 choices, 1024 possible combinations. If you had 12 choices in each category (as with your 72 item plan)... excessive, I think.
Explanation: When you consider how many attributes exist in this game, you can only differentiate between different upgrades so much. To start with your example of the rings, create one base item with three upgrade paths focussing on variations/improvements on the base items' stats. Not unreasonable, I think. Now imagine creating three more base ring items, each one unique enough to justify its existence. Now create three upgrade paths for those three items as well. Now repeat this for each of the other four equipment classes. Again, try to make each item unique to be worth existing in the first place. And each base item needs to have enough attributes so that the upgrades mean something. You've got, what, around 20-ish attributes total to work with?
Sooner or later, you're either going to wind up with hardly any difference between similar category items, OR you're going to get overlap across categories. You're going to wind up with rings protecting more than breastplates, and breastplates doing more damage than gloves and boots. Yes, you can juggle the boosts around, but you just don't have very many attributes to work with in the first place. That's pessimistic I realize, but with so many items, the game's mechanics would kind of promote that sort of situation. Yes, you can differentiate by adding special bonuses at the end, but 72 different ones? Sooner or later, some poor "top-tier" item is going to get stuck offering protection from disco music or sweaty palms.
No no no.. I said 24 STARTING items. (3-5 per category, average of 4.) Consumables wouldn't have this.
It's 72 in the end, at the final path. (24items*3 final paths=72 fully upgraded items)
Then don't add too many, it'll make the buying process easier, spread the complexity out better, and all sorts of other benefits.
This is certainly interesting but I think it is still too much. I'd prefer giving each item a single upgrade path that just increases all of its attributes as Mehve said. Then you can split up the attributes based on the type of item - boots increase speed and attack speed, breastplates increase health and armor, etc. To make the different boots different, you give them fun things like thorns or stun resist or negative things like decreased crit chance or less health. That way you can quickly say "ok, I want to move faster, so I pick a boot, and I don't want to lose anything so I'll just take the basic one, and oh! I got some more gold so I'll upgrade it once so I go even faster". Buying a "level-2 boot" would cost slightly less than buying a level 1 boot and upgrading it, I think. This way it is very quick to get what you want, even if you haven't memorized the item lists yet.
iunno why people wouldnt want such a system implicated it works fine but if u want u can add lvl requirements for different upgrades
I think that the added flexibility of having an item possibly modifying three attributes (and it'll say it will in the store tooltip) will outweigh the few extra seconds it takes to read the descriptions in the store. Providing the opportunity for flexibility later in the game will allow less formulaic builds because you can follow the game better. It will allow much more unorthodoxy in design because you can adapt as the game progresses far more easily so you can take a dangerous choice without having your build become steadily more extreme as the game progresses.
Yeah i originally though that.
HOWEVEr I think it'd add a lot to have a special attribute added at the very end depending on the path you take.
Plus, this way strengthening boots replace both those other two ones.
Same thing with there being the armors that have low armor, high hp and regen, and one with high armor, low hp and regen. Those 4 armors or whatever become just 1.
My way does that too though, since instead of boots, a helmet, and gloves boosting energy, only ones does. There would be 3 or 4 of each type to add some variety but you would still have fewer items altogether.
Eh? No that way you'd need to have boots that have low IAS, high armor, boots that are half in between, and boots with high armor, low IAS.
No, instead you would pick boots for one attribute and a different type of item for the other attributes. Or you could just accept that you can't have everything, which you accepted to begin with since you have to pick a Demigod that is only good at certain things.
Personally i like the triple-pathing Idea the best.
24 Base items which each get 3 upgrade-paths to follow. Adding Auras/Abilities, some give negativ stuff to compensate for its power etc.. You could play alot with this system.
Also 72 unique items should be possible, if you limit the itemclasses to specific roles/stats.
Hm, i think i was wrong saying, it would be still hard for newbies. The game is new, so it will be hard, but the system - if done well - can be very intuitive while still adding depth to the item choices of veterans.
Then I can't pick two high armor items? That doesn't sound fun to me..
Plus I think a big part of what matters is that it's cool. The branching upgrades would be cool. :]
I think after someone upgrades their first item, they'll understand it for them all and be able to just hover over the other items in the shop and be able to make informed choices.
You can pick two high-armor items by buying two breastplates . Of course, if they only let you have one of each type, you'll just have to pick a Demigod that has high armor to begin with. Branching upgrades would be more work and clutter than cool imo.
I wouldn't mind any way but my prefered way is:
Each item has it's own upgrade path.(1-3 levels)
The movement boots could start with the 10% move for 500 gold, 15% for an additional 500, and 20% for an additional 1000. All the while increasing the armour the item gives by like 10% per level. Artifacts could get better and better activateable abilities.
It would also eliminate looking for the the plain higher level of what I already have thing and allow for more room for more unique items. (there are 2 breast plates which give health, 2 rings which give lifesteal, ect.) with out creating too many end items, with less clutter, ect.
Artifcts should be cheaper and, not as good, start with no artivated ability.The upgrade path you choose would choose the activatable ability.
So there would be more activatable abilities to choose from, depending the path.Or you could just choose bonus effects instead of an activatable ability, depends on the path you take.
That's part of the idea, yep.
I think since they are artifacts, they should do crazy stuff already. Think of them as basically upgraded items that famous people used before they died, that are now available for you.
It'd be nice being able to choose a different bonus for 'em though. Then again, you're saying that as someone that doesn't want the branched upgrades so i don't think argueing that will go anywhere.
innociv.. you impress me yet again. i remember when I 1st started reading alot of your post I disagreed with alot.. but this is impressive. well thought out
Yeah the more we discuss this the more I like it .
I'm sold already, I love it, I'm just trying to come up with something to refine the internal workings. It is true that there is a fair amount of complexity, and making that complexity appear simple but deep is key to making it work properly.
First off let me say this sounds like a great improvement on the current system. It will logically group items by the stats they give. It would be easier for new players to simply buy an item in a store and then expect that they can upgrade the item to better but similiar stats. Intuitive is a good word to describe this method. You earned yourself some +Karma my friend.
Secondly, let me say I don't understand this "I don't study games" mentality. If you want to be the best at a game you will have to play it often and "study" it. There is no reason why some new player should be able to pick up demigod and beat an experienced player. I agree the overwhelming factor should be kept to a minimum but eliminating deep strategic decisions is not the way to do this. Allow the beginner few choices in the beginning then it will branch out as they have time to learn the upgrade trees for the item. In conclusion, Demigod has been stated many times that it is going to be a competitive game like CS or DotA. If the fact that the game is going to have deep strategy and skill requirements to be good then Demigod may not be the game for you. You can still enjoy it on a casual level but don't think you'll be awesome if you never want to spend anytime actually trying to get better. BTW this isn't an attack on anyone particular just me ranting about how we can't sacrifice strategic depth just to make it so anyone who picks up the game understands it completely in 50 minutes(try to name any competitive RTS/RPG style game where this is true).
Nice idea innociv!!. I got some more idea to share too. How about there's 1 upgrade blacksmith that do as you explain, upgrades things. But i think starting with basic gear that has no stat boost at all and start upgrading from zero is better, no need to buy any base item at all. This way it'll become like a skill tree with gold instead of exp. But it will reduce the complexity to choose between every base items and have to consider all upgrade paths and stats.
Now for additional idea, how about we have 1 more shop, to add 1 "special passive ability" to items. Like you choose a boot, and add life stealing on it or choose a helm and add reduce cooldown. Just add those "Passive" things on it, to reduce complexity of the stat upgrade tree.
And for another ultimate shop, add 1 "active skill" to your items. This way we can throw away the Artifact shop and just put this shop instead. Less items with the same result. Of course this active skill upgrade should cost more gold to do than PASSIVE and normal stat upgrade.
This way people will have it easier to get what they want. Let's have a look at the example :
1. i need some thing that boost my armor!! ---> go to stat upgrade shop to get upgrades in armor branch.
2. Damn i can't run away from my enemies, i need teleport!! ---- > go to Active skill upgrade shop and get blink upgrade on one of the item
3. our team lacking in overall damage, what should i do?? ----> go to Passive skill upgrade and get +Damage Aura upgrade.
And for the dev team, it's easier this way since we no need of new items and unique skill tree upgrade for each items, just 5 trees for stats (1 for each type helm, boot, armor etc.) 5 sets of passive skills to upgrade (1 for each type same as for stats) and 5 more sets for active skills.
Why having different sets for each type of item? That's for balancing purpose. Say, you can't make all your items have +25% walking speed, or you can't have all Active chain lightning for 5 of your slots to spam (making it have the share the same cooldown just make it frustrating for new player that think they can make uber chain lightning spam).
Hope these idea help out
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