Game Cheats Are Illegal? » Forum Post by kryo

I'm sorry, I did not say he was potentially destroying Blizzard's business. I asked you if you believed that Blizzard could only act to defend itself when someone was taking actions that could potentially destroy their business? Me, I can see that it's possible to cause material harm to a business without potentially destroying it. Can you? If you can, do you think it's wrong for that business to defend itself? It looks like that's exactly what you believe.

It just seems to me like "As long as Blizzard's making a lot of money, anything should go" and that's pretty unreasonable.

Nope never said that but until they show proof to the contrary and letters from upset customers are not proof sorry, I fail to see how their business is being hurt. Show me a profit/loss statement? Show me a drop in subscribers that specifically said they quit cause of this guys bot, customers threatening means nothing? Maybe then we can feel that it is affecting them.

The game world's rules include "A human being must be at the computer, pressing the keys and using the mouse to make things happen." A bot circumvents that. It's already explicitly disallowed in the EULA. Botting allows him to play 24/7, to play multiple characters at once all doing different things - these are not possible for human beings.

If that is the case then so be it, I am not top to bottom familiar with the EULA, however they have always had the right to ban people so go for it. I am only speaking of the lawsuit, they can ban until they have no one left to ban I could careless.

I'm sorry, I did not say he was potentially destroying Blizzard's business. I asked you if you believed that Blizzard could only act to defend itself when someone was taking actions that could potentially destroy their business? Me, I can see that it's possible to cause material harm to a business without potentially destroying it. Can you? If you can, do you think it's wrong for that business to defend itself? It looks like that's exactly what you believe.

Again I don't think potentially makes a case, you need to come to the table with proof, as far as I can tell from what I read they have only come up with scenarios where it might damage them. That just doesn't cut it, if they can show true damages then so be it. As for costs fighting bots; come now they would have to do that even with out this particular bot, that is just part of running an MMO and to place the blame on one bot as if it would go away then they could just stop doing that is wishful thinking(and a pathetic argument). Their are costs associated with running a business and one of those costs unfortunately is dealing with idiots and thieves it doesn't matter if you are a brick and mortar store or an MMO company. Last I checked if I shoplifted something from a store they could get me for the cost of the item and penalties but they couldn't sue me for the cost of their theft deterent systems. That is just the cost of doing business.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

Cheats and Hacks ruin the games for all and can eventually be a games downfall. I played mechwarrior for over a decade. fighting cheaters and hackers along the way. eventually the games development was dropped mostly from what I was told due to hackers ruining the game. MS got tired of throwing money at the game trying to fix the games and patch it as new hacks poped up. In time the cost of fighting hack/cheats ate up a good portion of the games full revenues. Thus the game series was dropped.

It is my belief Hackers and cheats killed off the simple buy and play games, how? As stated above, once the games were sold the companies had to keep throwing money at them to keep the game play fair for all, deducting from the bottom line. So a new game style was born "pay to play", the monthly subscriptions are used to keep development going and fight off cheats/hackers.

This has been an ongoing fight behind the scenes for more over a decade. The costs are astronomical, these costs fighting the hackers/cheats get passed on to us the consumer. Now a game that once cost $50 one time, costs $20 a month for as long as you play it. you do the math.

Yes I severly blame those who wish to hack/cheat for the problems of the gaming industry in this fashion. But as with the music industry, the developers/Mfgs/Publishers are trying to combat hacks/cheats/thieves, and we have to pay the price.
So I dont shed a tear for hackers and cheats that get busted.

I've been around internet gaming going on 2 decades now,Have had articles written about me and my MechWarrior Unit on gaming sites. So Im not coming at this from an Uninformed position.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1853

what I did say is that I don't see Blizzard getting on less truckload of money because of this.

I don't see it either...but then there's a valid reason for that...I am not privy to Blizzard's bank accounts.

Blizzard doesn't need to convince me...or you that they are suffering 'loss'....only the Judge hearing the case.

*************

Re the directions of this thread....there's no harm referencing the 'politics' of Law and how it may or may not affect an outcome....but let's NOT make any part of it 'personal'.

'attack' the opinion, NOT the opinion-holder...

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I don't see it either...but then there's a valid reason for that...I am not privy to Blizzard's bank accounts. Blizzard doesn't need to convince me...or you that they are suffering 'loss'....only the Judge hearing the case.

I wasn't stating that they had to show me, I was simply stating that should be a criteria for a case to go to court. Just like this case should.

I never said that they had to convince me, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with it now does it. Last I checked a Judge wasn't infalable and I just happen to believe in this case this judge was. You are free to disagree, isn't that great!

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It is my belief Hackers and cheats killed off the simple buy and play games, how? As stated above, once the games were sold the companies had to keep throwing money at them to keep the game play fair for all, deducting from the bottom line. So a new game style was born "pay to play", the monthly subscriptions are used to keep development going and fight off cheats/hackers.

Uhm what the heck are you talking about? Just about every game released has a multiplayer option!

Right Mechwarrior went away becaues of hackers and cheats, please show me the proof. Last I checked there were something like 6 mechwarrior games all with multiplayer. Gimme a break!

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Voqar

Join Date 03/2003

+21

My thoughts? I don't like WoW...

That's nice.

The issue goes beyond one game though - Blizzard just has the success and resources to attempt to do something about an issue that plagues the entire MMORPG genre, if not all of gaming.

I hope Blizzard wins and it puts the royal smack down on all botters and cheaters. One can dream.

Seems like something that'd be hard to enforce but at least if they win it'll send a message and it's a step in the right direction.

I think the bigger underlying problem is that a lot of this stuff is still a new or gray area as far as legality and enforcement goes.

The bottom line for me is that I'm a gamer and I don't appreciate cheating or cheaters. If I'm playing an online game, especially one that I'm paying a subscription to play, I want the game to be fair for everyone. I don't want a bunch of cheating losers getting advantages over honest players.

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HG_Eliminator

Join Date 07/2002

+354

Uhm what the heck are you talking about? Just about every game released has a multiplayer option!

Right Mechwarrior went away becaues of hackers and cheats, please show me the proof. Last I checked there were something like 6 mechwarrior games all with multiplayer. Gimme a break!

um ?? I never said they werent multiplayer ,just that you didnt have to pay a monthly subscription to play once you bought it .. Go buy one and test it out..no pay to play.

Mechwarior 2 titanium was the first multiplayer capable version, then MW3,MW4vengance, blackknight,mercenaries, the expansion packs, MW5 was in development but after all the Balloney with online issues Hackers etc. The MW community was told development would be dropped.

You dont have to believe me. But most of the MechWarrior comunity know the reason. Many of us Dedicated the Time helping the devs and @ Admins on the MSN Gaming zone, or were @ admins our selves. Just like here.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

On the other hand, and I know this isn't a popular opinion in this thread, I don't see the harm this causes other players.

Even though it's a game, yes, it does have an economic system. A bot can easily give the bot user a competitive advantage in the economic system that no human can ever have.

By the way, the real point is not the damage it causes to other players, but rather the damage it causes to Blizzard. The damage it causes to other players is a side issue, and unlikely to be a large factor in the judge's decisions.

Second, are there really that many people using Glider that it could unbalance the economy in WoW?

Yes. The number of people who bought Glider is somewhere in the hundreds of thousands, I believe. Which is plenty more than enough to have the economic impact of millions of players who aren't using bots. This can be extremely unbalanced, and yes, I have seen the economies of MMORPGs cave from the number of bots.

Blizzard doesn't need to convince me...or you that they are suffering 'loss'....only the Judge hearing the case.

This is very true: Many of the facts and figures may actually never be disclosed to the public.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

For those discussing the numbers:

MDY has sold 100k+ copies of the Glider program, earning about $2.8 million over the past three years.

Blizzard spent $970k per year specifically combatting bots during the same period.

An expert witness called on MDY's behalf could only name ONE additional bot program currently usable on WoW.

Blizzard had received more than 465k complaints about bot activity in general, with "several thousand" specifically referencing the Glider program. An unspecified number of additional complaints have been registered on the official WoW forums.

Blizzard claims $10.5 million losses from accounts banned due to glider use - accounting method assumes each banned account would have continued subscribing an average of seven months had it not been banned.

Using an economic model not entirely disclosed, Blizzard claims an $18 million yearly loss due to customer dissatisfaction specifically related to Glider.

These numbers were taken from the actual filings in the case, specifically filings 39 and 40

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

I forgot to mention the incident in November 2006 where MDY paid "a third party" (presumably a Blizzard employee) $18,000 for proprietary information about Blizzard's Warden program.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1853

So...Blizzard suffers $18 million loss per annum....and the 'guilty party' is worth 2.8.

Looks like he's going to have to be melted down for Yak Fat to get much more than that....

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um ?? I never said they werent multiplayer ,just that you didnt have to pay a monthly subscription to play once you bought it .. Go buy one and test it out..no pay to play

What are you talking about? I play multiplayer games all the time without paying a monthly fee! In fact I play MMOs alot without a monthly fee (won't play one with a fee) such as Guild Wars, Archlord, Runescape, Fury, 9 Dragons and those are the ones I have played there is a long list of other free MMOs and more release all the time, but either way you are flat out wrong multiplayer is alive and well and still free, cheaters (oh my) or not. At least this is true on the planet I call Earth!

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Blizzard claims $10.5 million losses from accounts banned due to glider use - accounting method assumes each banned account would have continued subscribing an average of seven months had it not been banned.

This has to be the worst of all, total speculation how someone can claim this is beyond me. So they are assuming that all these subscribers that were to damn lazy to play the game and cheated would have played it for seven more months with out Glider? I somehow find that unlikly some yes but not all. Unless you can prove it sorry Blizzard no money for you!

Blizzard had received more than 465k complaints about bot activity in general, with "several thousand" specifically referencing the Glider program. An unspecified number of additional complaints have been registered on the official WoW forums.

Wow several thousand users complained about Glider out of over 10 Million seems like proof to me. No mention of whether these were all unique or the same users. So let me see a well known bot gets all the complaints wow, sounds to me like another bot could be seen as Glider by a player, again no proof just cojecture.

Blizzard spent $970k per year specifically combatting bots during the same period. An expert witness called on MDY's behalf could only name ONE additional bot program currently usable on WoW.

Well I would believe that if I couldn't do a google search and find loads of cheats and bots for WOW. Some expert that guy was must not have heard of Google. Also correlation does not equal causation, I saw nothing in there where Blizzard showed anything other than wild speculation in regard to this point. Sounds like they are trying to get all there losses covered by this guy whether or not he caused them.

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"The particular cheat in question, as I understand it, doesn't modify anything. It basically just plays the game for you."

What..what...wait....this cheater is a pretty smart dude. Getting a program to do WoW for you, meaning, he doesn't have to be in front of the thing for grind fest. I say that is pretty good deal. I think whomever the judge that hand out the judgement should try his/her hand on WoW for a few months, maybe then, that judge will change the ruling in the cheater's favor

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+497

I thought the whole idea of playing a game was to play the game

Must have missed something somewhere...

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

This has to be the worst of all, total speculation how someone can claim this is beyond me.

They may not have disclosed the exact methods for obtaining the numbers to the public, but I'm sure that in court they did indeed show that their methods are not "mere speculation."

So they are assuming that all these subscribers that were to damn lazy to play the game and cheated would have played it for seven more months with out Glider?

I don't know. I don't seem to have access to the "Castronova Supplemental" referred to by Blizzard, which would contain the exact methods and reasoning for the numbers. It's probably sealed information.

In a court of law, however, I would say that this is not assumed without reason, and the supplemental they referred to likely contains all of the reasons for this being a valid assumption.

Sorry, but I only have access to the documentation that is available to the public.

I think whomever the judge that hand out the judgement should try his/her hand on WoW for a few months, maybe then, that judge will change the ruling in the cheater's favor

I seriously doubt it. I've been playing WoW for several months, and I still hate cheaters with a passion.

It's not a good deal: It gives the owner of the bot an unfair advantage.

Wow several thousand users complained about Glider out of over 10 Million seems like proof to me.

Several hundred thousand. You're off by a rather large factor. That's about 5% of their entire consumer base. If 5% of my users complained about something, you'd bet I wouldn't ignore them!

So let me see a well known bot gets all the complaints wow, sounds to me like another bot could be seen as Glider by a player, again no proof just cojecture.

Again, the precise figures and methodologies for obtaining them do not seem to be available to the general public. It's very well possible they have all of the proof they need. You are only assuming they don't.

In addition, the judge hasn't ruled on the damages yet, so we don't know how much he is accepting. We probably won't see much more about this case until September.

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Okay, but how is what Glider does different from holding a copy in RAM, as it relates to copyright law?Physically, not at all.Legally, by using Glider you've violated the EULA. Thus Blizzad has the right to terminate your ability to use the WoW program, as you are no longer in compliance with the terms necessary to avoid breaking their copyright on that program.

WIlly,

What on earth does the EULA have to do with the copyright? Maybe I'm missing something; honestly, I don't read EULAs very much. Nevertheless, I don't see how a violation of a ToS or EULA constitutes a breach of copyright law, and that was my original point regarding the question of copyright law.

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I thought the whole idea of playing a game was to play the game Must have missed something somewhere...

Fuzzy,

I think, questions of legality aside, this is the main argument for not using bots. If you don't like playing WoW, why are you ponying up the $15 US a month for the privilege of doing so?

I've played a number of games that tout replayability as a feature, but there are very few games that I've actually replayed all the way through (mostly older single-player RPGs). So if the argument is that you want to replay it without "replaying" it, then that says to me that you must not have enjoyed it that much the first time through.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

So...Blizzard suffers $18 million loss per annum....and the 'guilty party' is worth 2.8.
Looks like he's going to have to be melted down for Yak Fat to get much more than that....

That $18 million is only what they estimate from people quitting in disgust. If you add in lost revenue from banned players and money spent combatting Glider, it's closer to $30 million.

This has to be the worst of all, total speculation how someone can claim this is beyond me. So they are assuming that all these subscribers that were to damn lazy to play the game and cheated would have played it for seven more months with out Glider? I somehow find that unlikly some yes but not all. Unless you can prove it sorry Blizzard no money for you!

That number was based on the average amount of time to get a level 50 character. By Blizzard's estimate, it takes a typical player 8 months to reach level 50, compared to the bot doing it for you in less than one month.

This seems inflated to me, as well - simply because it doesn't account for what percentage of those banned bought another copy and got right back into it.

Well I would believe that if I couldn't do a google search and find loads of cheats and bots for WOW. Some expert that guy was must not have heard of Google. Also correlation does not equal causation, I saw nothing in there where Blizzard showed anything other than wild speculation in regard to this point. Sounds like they are trying to get all there losses covered by this guy whether or not he caused them.

First, not all data is being released to the public.

Second, the expert was commenting on USABLE bots - ones that are nearly undetectable.

Third, MDY agrees that Glider is responsible for most of Blizzard's bot-related expenses. When even the offender admits they're causing the problem, the facts aren't really in dispute any more.

WIlly,

What on earth does the EULA have to do with the copyright? Maybe I'm missing something; honestly, I don't read EULAs very much. Nevertheless, I don't see how a violation of a ToS or EULA constitutes a breach of copyright law, and that was my original point regarding the question of copyright law.

Legally, the act of loading a game from your hard drive into RAM constitutes copying the game. Under normal playing conditions, the user has the company's permission to do this, so the copying does not constitute infringement.

However, if the EULA has been broken the user no longer has the company's permission to copy the game in this manner. Once the user's EULA-granted privledges have been revoked, loading the game becomes an act of illegal copying. This is not new to this decision, there are several precedents on exactly this issue.

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Phoon

Join Date 10/2001

+382

That number was based on the average amount of time to get a level 50 character. By Blizzard's estimate, it takes a typical player 8 months to reach level 50,

Started a new character 1 month ago. Hit level 50 this week.
To take 8 months would be weekend playing only and then only a few short hours at a time.
Still, that's 8 months of subscription regardless.

So they are assuming that all these subscribers that were to damn lazy to play the game and cheated would have played it for seven more months with out Glider?

You bet your ass they would have! Do YOU have a WoW account? If so, you would understand.

I know a few people that have got busted using a bot. They got banned and went out and purchased another copy of the game and had to start from square 1 again. You can bet that they will not be using any bots again too.
Not all people would go to that extreme though.

WoW has become much more than the average MMORPG. I know of entire families from Great Grandma on down that play. It's much larger and deeper than you realize, almost to a sick extreme.
Blizzard has alway had problems with asswipes trying to cheat the system since Warcraft I. I certainly don't blame them at all for putting this guys family jewels in the legal vise either. Perhaps it will motivate other crack developers to think twice (or at least not be so stupid as to charge people for the crack).

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Its times like this that I REALLY appreciate CCP(makers of EVE). Dont they fly up selected players to discuss policy with?

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Started a new character 1 month ago. Hit level 50 this week.
To take 8 months would be weekend playing only and then only a few short hours at a time.
Still, that's 8 months of subscription regardless.

IIRC, they based the 8 months on 480 hours of gameplay to get a brand new character to level 50 without outside assistance (gear, money, etc from another player/character), playing about 2 hours a day. The bot can do the same in 3 weeks, assuming uninterrupted play.

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By the way, the real point is not the damage it causes to other players, but rather the damage it causes to Blizzard. The damage it causes to other players is a side issue, and unlikely to be a large factor in the judge's decisions.

On the contrary, since WoW is a subscription game, damage to other players means canceled subscriptions, which means damage to Blizzard.

That's why Blizzard's case includes complaints from 400,000 accounts about this. If damage to players was irrelevant, those complaints would be irrelevant.

Wow several thousand users complained about Glider out of over 10 Million seems like proof to me. No mention of whether these were all unique or the same users. So let me see a well known bot gets all the complaints wow, sounds to me like another bot could be seen as Glider by a player, again no proof just cojecture.

Figure that for every customer that complains, approximately ten do not. 465,000 complaints means 4,650,000 people aren't complaining, but are unhappy. I think the total number of players in the US and EU comes to approximately 5-6 million, so odds are good that the majority is unhappy with this.

Also, the average WoW player subscribes for 7 months. A lot of players who would play normally otherwise give glider a try and get banned.

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Again, the precise figures and methodologies for obtaining them do not seem to be available to the general public. It's very well possible they have all of the proof they need. You are only assuming they don't.

Sorry but without the same documentation you are saying I am missing you are only assuming also. Which is what this whole thread is about!

Several hundred thousand. You're off by a rather large factor. That's about 5% of their entire consumer base. If 5% of my users complained about something, you'd bet I wouldn't ignore them!

Sorry I think you need to reread or read for the first time, as even the court doc says in the footnotes "While not all complaints specifically reference Glider, several thousand do, reflecting Gliders status as the most well-known bot in the WoW universe. (SOF ¶ 226)." so again it was not several hundered thousand it was only several thousand! Large difference. Also I never said Blizzard shoud ignore them I just said they should continue to ban user not sue.

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First, not all data is being released to the public. Second, the expert was commenting on USABLE bots - ones that are nearly undetectable. Third, MDY agrees that Glider is responsible for most of Blizzard's bot-related expenses. When even the offender admits they're causing the problem, the facts aren't really in dispute.

First that means you are assuming just like me!

Second I thought all bots were harmful sounds like they are using this one to gain back for the ones that aren't as well known also.

Third the key word is most! that means there are others, and you say that this is the only one and should pay for everything is wrong!

This seems inflated to me, as well - simply because it doesn't account for what percentage of those banned bought another copy and got right back into it.

Not only that but how do they know these subscribers would have continued playing if they couldn't cheat? I am sure some would but come on you can't know that for sure period.

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