With palms together,
There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls. Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.
The article suggests:
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.
Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth? It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.
And later:
Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.
But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.
“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”
Strange.
Link
Be well
Hey there, KFC,
Yes, Rabbi Hillel said the same thing, as did the Torah itself, yet God still gave you very specific commandments. Following the spirit of the law sounds wonderful until that spirit has to be applied in real, earthly terms. Kind of like your struggle with gays.
For those who struggle with the whole Torah and all 613 commandments, I refer you to parsha kodoshim a weekly Torah portion that addresses how to live a holy life according to God.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Weekly_Torah_Commentary/kedoshim_summary.htm
Can someone state clearly what these are?
Leauki, Good to see you back. I'm wondering the same thing about such a list of principles. We'll see.
Oh many things. There are many times when I'm with non Christian friends and relatives and are tempted to "cheat" here and there and I chose to do the right thing. When my kids were little it was "tell them your child is 12 (when he was 13) and he'll get the cheaper price. That sort of thing.
I know many atheists and Jews who don't cheat and wouldn't have cheated in that situation either.
What is so specifically "Christian" about not cheating?
It looks to me like you are looking to make something that I consider completely normal an achievement made possible by Christian values. Is honesty something you only practice because of your Christianity? If so, that is certainly a positive aspect of Christianity, but it throws a bad light on Christians!
Nevertheless, that particular principle is not a non-secular, non-Islamic, Christian value. Instead it is a value all three ideologies have in common.
Perhaps you didn't understand my question?
Or if I'm undercharged at the register I bring it back and pay full price. I did that last week when I was charged for one pillow but I bought two. I went back a week later to pay for it. I've been told at one store that they never had anyone come back like that before.
Again, I find that completely normal. I am surprised that they would say that they never had anyone come back like that before!
In fact, in these situations I always get very angry because it means I have to walk back to the store. It's like finding a wallet with a name in it.
At what point would a belief in G-d even come into it? Atheists act like that without believing in G-d. Perhaps they do it because they believe that since there is no god they themselves have to put things right?
If you are honest because of your Christianity, does that mean you are honest because you fear punishment if you are not?
I know Jews who keep kosher because they fear G-d's punishment if they don't. But fear of punishment is not why a Jew should keep kosher and I don't think G-d would punish a Jew for not keeping kosher.
Love in the form of self sacrifice is a common human value. We call it altruism. The Greater Good, the Universe, the Absolute, Infinite, Adonai, Allah, Jesus, all are just names various human beings have for God. This God is the same regardless of what or how He is called.
This message of love is a wonderful principle, applied to God in Judaism, for example, the Shema and the V'ahav'ta (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) pretty much have us go from the inside out, recognizing God's oneness to loving the Lord with all your heart and might, to teaching His teachings to all.
In Zen Buddhism, the practice is to learn to set aside self for others in everything we do. Its a complete, total, and unconditional love.
Frankly, I am disappointed in these answers. I was hoping for a clear set of Christian specific principles. I hear this phrase alot, but have no real idea what such principles are. I hear about Christian charity, for instance. I do not know how Christian charity is any different from dana in Zen Buddhism. The Diamond Sutra teaches us that charity should be offered without any reference to self, among other principles.
Tell me more.
Remember the Amish people a couple of years ago showing the world this type of love? The world was astonished. How could they show love and forgivness when their children had been murdered by complete strangers?
Yes, I remember and it was impressive.
However, they showed love and forgiveness to the family of the killer, not the killer himself, if I recall correctly.
Also, just a year ago or so there was a case (not the first either) of an Arab Palestinian man donating his dead child's organs to Israeli hospitals even though his child was killed by Israeli security forces. I believe he was a Muslim. The organs donated saved the lives of a bedouin girl, a Druze child, and a Jewish boy (from an orthodox family, if I recall correctly).
The kid was not murdered and nobody* claimed he was. But nevertheless the father must have seen Israel as an enemy at that point.
Similar incidents, without much press coverrage, happen in the other direction (but more often).
It seems you have found another "Christian" value that is also a Muslim (and Jewish) value, and probably a secular value too.
*I am sure a few terrorist organisations did claim that the Israeli simply murdered the child in cold blood, but the father in question did not think so, as far as I know.
Hello KFC,
I am following your thoughts on moral behavior. Leuki had a point though which raised the purity of motive as an issue. If we do good for the sake of God this is not a pure motive. Good should be done for itself. In the process of being good we are honoring our creator.
Your discussion to this point is either fear based or praise based. In either case it is based on something apart from itself. Are Christian principles then fear or praise based?
I would prefer to understand doing good as becoming goodness itself. We become the manifestation of good with no object, benefit, or consequence in mind at all. You say human beings are not love. I don't agree. I believe we are love at our core. Our essential nature is God.
But all of this begs the question, are there a set of Christian principles? If so, can they be articulated and differentiated from other moral/ethical/spiritual principles?
Be well.
And who are you to judge what reason or the motives that they do this for? Can you see into their hearts? You just said "Only god can judge the heart". You are contradicting yourself here.
Nightshades, I'm sorry but I can't really discuss anymore with you I find you very hard to speak with. It's like you're out to nitpick everything I say instead of listening to what I say. I don't have that feeling with Sodaiho. Even tho we disagree I feel he's at least listening.
Think about what I just said and your reply. We are talking about a Christian and an Atheist. An Atheist is NOT going to have the same motive as a Christian who is doing out of love for his/her God. Since the Atheist doesn't believe in God, they can't both be doing it with the same movtive now can they? The Christian's motive should be to please God. Does the Atheist say that?
You'll have to discuss these things with someone else. I think Sodaiho would agree that I never ignore an issue. I am as honest as I know how to be and try to give answers as best as I can. As Sodaiho says...be well.
Good writing Lula. You did well.
After reading and discussing this issue here on Sodaiho's blog I find Jesus was right after all when he said this in reply to a the dead rich man who requested a messenger be sent t his brothers to warn them about the after life:
"He said to him, if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Luke 16
I'd like again to request you guys watch "The Final Inquiry." I think you would find it most interesting given our topic here.
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