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What's Your Problem, White-Liberal-Jewish-Galician-American Boy?

The Identification Process

June 6, 2008 1:19:22 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There was a tangent from Little-Whip's post, "Would You Join This Church?" that I'd like to rescue: the process of identification.

Little-Whip wrote,
As much as many hate to admit it, there's a huge difference between the attitudes (and I'm speaking in general terms here, the rule proves the exceptions) of American born blacks and others who share their skin tone. England had slaves too, yet speak to a British Black man and he'll identify himself as a Brit, not an 'African-British whatever.'

So, how do we identify ourselves when we're living out several narratives at once? For example, I am the subject of a narrative where the protagonist is played by a male individual; and I'm also the white subject of a racial narrative; and a Jewish subject of yet another narrative. Other narrative subjects in which I play a part include that of an American, a citizen of the United States who likes Canadian beer and Mexican food, a liberal, a Master of Fine Arts, a third-generation emigrant from Galicia, and a die-hard, cheese-headed Green Bay Packers fan.

When does a Mexican who legally immigrates to the United States stop being a Mexican?

When Italians and Greeks came across the ocean in immigration waves during the 1900s, the census bureau initially counted them as black. Until they lobbied to have their racial status changed. In the telling words of the late Chris Farley, "Holy Shnikes!"

Who the hell am I? Am I all of those identities I listed above? Or none of them? Let's say Men went to war against white people. With whom would I most strongly identify? Why?

For example, Karl Marx brilliantly and quite arrogantly (omitting racial distinctions from his equation) argues that people are naturally aligned with those who have the same relation to the means of production (economic class).

Louis Althusser argues that we aren't really "Selves" with unique identities. Instead, we are Subjects. His argument works like this: You may be You. But then You walk down the street and someone yells, "Hey, Taboo!" Do You acknowledge the label he's given You? If You do, consciously or not, then You (now Taboo) become subject to that identity.

Perhaps you can lobby against a label given to you - in the way the Italians and Greeks did - but think about all the labels you have acknowledge: there is something "black" that you don't want to be. There is something "black" that someone else HAS to be, but you do not.

Unless you get to choose - can a black person lobby to be white? Is it that simple? If so, we should stop telling Michael Jackson jokes.

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Reply #1 June 6, 2008 5:04:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Unless you get to choose - can a black person lobby to be white? Is it that simple? If so, we should stop telling Michael Jackson jokes.


Can a white person lobby to be black? Hispanic?
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Reply #2 June 6, 2008 5:35:23 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Can a white person lobby to be black? Hispanic?


well, they can lobby, anyway. also, i've seen some white kids who dress as if they are trying to identify as a black person. maybe that makes them black . . .

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Reply #3 June 6, 2008 10:59:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Interesting, but I reckon people overthink identity politics. It's clear that everyone is many different things at once, but usually only one label is dominant on any single issue.
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Reply #4 June 8, 2008 8:56:48 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

LOL!  Great article and some interesting points!  A white person don't have to lobby to be black or Hispanic, they are already many in the equation, it just depends on what they identify themselve as.  But there we go again, what do you identify with?  And the conversation goes on and on and on....etc., etc...

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Reply #5 June 9, 2008 4:16:48 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If asked, I am American. When filing out an application I am forced to put Hispanic since there is no American on it. Since I was born in the US bot am of Puerto Rican parents I believe it suits me well so I call my self an Ame-Rican.
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Reply #6 June 10, 2008 10:02:08 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

sorry i haven't responded - for some reason, i couldn't access joeuser yesterday.

cactoblasta
on Jun 06, 2008
Interesting, but I reckon people overthink identity politics. It's clear that everyone is many different things at once, but usually only one label is dominant on any single issue.

true - everybody is part of several narratives.  but those narratives conflict with each other all the time.  you say, "usually only one label is dominant on any single issue," but i think "one label" is dominant in the most cut-n-dry situations.  i mean, think about it.  for example, think about when you're voting.  you have to really distill all of those narrative down to an essence, when you're sorting out issues (or you could simply half-punch a chad and move on, i guess).

- jewish liberals who are US citizens have this problem every four years.
- when voting, there is always a difficult slide between social/political/religious issues.
- immigration . . . when do legal immigrants become "full" citizens?  when do we stop discussing how "they" are stealing "our" jobs?

cacto, are you white?  i'm just asking.

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Reply #7 June 10, 2008 10:08:34 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

foreverserenity
on Jun 08, 2008

LOL!  Great article and some interesting points!  A white person don't have to lobby to be black or Hispanic, they are already many in the equation, it just depends on what they identify themselve as.  But there we go again, what do you identify with?  And the conversation goes on and on and on....etc., etc...

the conversation goes on - but it seems to gain energy and intensity.  reverend wright - he doesn't speak for all black people.  but now everybody is suggesting he speaks for A LOT of black people.  maybe.


patriotism . . . in the united states, there's a mob mentality that screams, "supporting your country is priority number one!  and we're going to ask everybody to go ahead and support your country in a carefully prescribed, particular manner."  identity politics.

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Reply #8 June 10, 2008 10:11:02 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

CharlesCS
on Jun 09, 2008
If asked, I am American. When filing out an application I am forced to put Hispanic since there is no American on it. Since I was born in the US bot am of Puerto Rican parents I believe it suits me well so I call my self an Ame-Rican.

Ame-Rican . . . never heard that before, charles.  i wonder whether you ever feel a conflict, on the level of day-to-day living, when you're explaining things to teachers, students, your kids, your friends . . . .

 

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Reply #9 June 10, 2008 3:22:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ame-Rican . . . never heard that before, charles. i wonder whether you ever feel a conflict, on the level of day-to-day living, when you're explaining things to teachers, students, your kids, your friends . . . .


Not sure what you are trying to say. Care to elaborate? Not sure if yo were being funny or serious.

I just made that up, never actually noticed it before. Thought it was a bit funny since we have a word for an American Puerto Rican in Spanish, Ameriqueño which is American and Puertoriqueño together.
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Reply #10 June 10, 2008 4:46:11 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Not sure what you are trying to say. Care to elaborate? Not sure if yo were being funny or serious.

I just made that up, never actually noticed it before. Thought it was a bit funny since we have a word for an American Puerto Rican in Spanish, Ameriqueño which is American and Puertoriqueño together.


i'd never heard the word "ame-rican" before (not surprising, considering you made it up) and i thought it was pretty clever.

the rest of it was serious. i was wondering if you ever feel like your puerto rican culture comes into conflict with your US culture. do you always feel like an "ame-rican" or do you sometimes feel split?

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Reply #11 June 10, 2008 5:33:50 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
True - everybody is part of several narratives. but those narratives conflict with each other all the time. you say, "usually only one label is dominant on any single issue," but i think "one label" is dominant in the most cut-n-dry situations. i mean, think about it. for example, think about when you're voting. you have to really distill all of those narrative down to an essence, when you're sorting out issues (or you could simply half-punch a chad and move on, i guess).


Not necessarily - my identity as a cynical Australian tertiary-educated public servant of mostly Angloceltic roots from a traditional family doesn't have any real impact on my politics. It's nearly always my personal views of the integrity and courage of the candidate that sways my votes, not the appeal of people who think the same as I do. I see that approach as a result of my status as a lapsed Catholic.

People tend to choose which identity/identities are most relevant in each situation. There may be a conflict, but only if they have a natural tendency towards indecision. But I haven't seen much evidence to suggest those who straddle more identities than most are particularly indecisive, so I don't think it's identity conflicts itself that make for difficulties.

- immigration . . . when do legal immigrants become "full" citizens? when do we stop discussing how "they" are stealing "our" jobs?


As someone who deals with this on a daily basis through work, I don't have much trouble in saying that it's as soon as they receive their citizenship. And they never steal our jobs - the idea is the most absurd kind of kneejerk reaction. If it was 'our' job we would be doing it.
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Reply #12 June 10, 2008 6:44:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
i'd never heard the word "ame-rican" before (not surprising, considering you made it up) and i thought it was pretty clever.


Yea, I kinda stumbled onto that one.

the rest of it was serious. i was wondering if you ever feel like your puerto rican culture comes into conflict with your US culture. do you always feel like an "ame-rican" or do you sometimes feel split?


Well, not really. See the only difference I can see between someone born and raised in the US and someone born and raised in Puerto Rico is the language. But then Spanish is becoming very common in the US and English is becoming very common in Puerto Rico. Over there, the lifestyle is almost the same, fast food, movies, sports, cars, house and even TV shows. They just are not so accustomed of seeing cars with different license plates, if you get what I mean. Only people who travel by plane or boat are outsiders, not like here where you can't always tell who's from here and who isn't since all the states (except for a few) are connected with not restrictions.
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Reply #13 June 11, 2008 10:24:53 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

cacto:

Not necessarily - my identity as a cynical Australian tertiary-educated public servant of mostly Angloceltic roots from a traditional family doesn't have any real impact on my politics.

granted, i don't know anything about aust. economics or politics; however, it sounds like your "self" identifies closely with your economic class . . .

It's nearly always my personal views of the integrity and courage of the candidate that sways my votes, not the appeal of people who think the same as I do

so i have to ask: do other cynical Australian tertiary-educated public servants identify very differently than you do - either at the voting booth or on the street or at the australian-rules football match (sorry)?

People tend to choose which identity/identities are most relevant in each situation.


i agree - or nearly.  i question whether we really "choose" which identity is most relevant at a given time.  my belief is that we identify automatically based on need, or or identity is chosen for us by the system that's been imprinted on our neurons from day one.  given a social situation, we appear to have several alignment choices. like a multiple choice test. maybe we have the option to choose other, maybe not.  but even when we have the choice to choose other, we rarely are allowed to simply sign our name - we are never aligning with our OWN unique identity, are we?  not socially, at least.


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Reply #14 June 11, 2008 10:31:50 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

charles,

Well, not really. See the only difference I can see between someone born and raised in the US and someone born and raised in Puerto Rico is the language. But then Spanish is becoming very common in the US and English is becoming very common in Puerto Rico. Over there, the lifestyle is almost the same, fast food, movies, sports, cars, house and even TV shows. They just are not so accustomed of seeing cars with different license plates, if you get what I mean. Only people who travel by plane or boat are outsiders, not like here where you can't always tell who's from here and who isn't since all the states (except for a few) are connected with not restrictions.

interesting - may i ask a political question?  i seem to remember hearing that political alignment in puerto rico fell into four basic parties - and at least one of the major issues was that of defining the relationship with the united states.  that seems like a crucial part of this identification process.  do you have a take on that?  maybe you don't feel like your identity is determined by that debate, but a lot of people seem to take it seriously, don't they?

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Reply #15 June 11, 2008 12:50:43 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
interesting - may i ask a political question? i seem to remember hearing that political alignment in puerto rico fell into four basic parties - and at least one of the major issues was that of defining the relationship with the united states. that seems like a crucial part of this identification process. do you have a take on that? maybe you don't feel like your identity is determined by that debate, but a lot of people seem to take it seriously, don't they?


Bare in mind I am hardly educated in the inner workings of the US political system so I know even less about the Puerto Rico political system. Now, it is my understanding that there are at least 3 political parties, not sure about the 4th one but have heard about it. This is my understanding of these political parties.

Partido Popular Democratico (PPD) - This party believes in basically keeping Puerto Rico the way it is, the best of both worlds. Not being part of the US yet having all the benefits and title (American) like every other American does. They want Puerto Rico to maintain it's culture while still adding and enjoying the US culture.

Partido Nuevo Prograsista (PNP) - This party believes Puerto Rico should become State 51 of the US. Become party of the US to take 100% full benefits of this joining. They believe Puerto rico should be more like the US, possible even willing to sacrifice some of what make this Island so unique (the culture) for the benefit of it's people.

Partido Independentista Puertoriqueño (PIP) - This party believes Puerto Rico should cut all ties relating to being part of the US. It wants Puerto Rico to be completely independent, kinda like Cuba. And maintain 100% of it's culture.

This is how I understand these parties. I may not have them down completely and might even be a bit wrong in my understanding, but it's what I picked up during my 8 years living there as a teen. I am a bit torn between the first 2 parties. I like the idea of Puerto Rico retaining it's culture while still benefiting from the US (PPD), but in the long run this will eventually become an annoyance as Americans are changing the look on how US money is being spent irresponsibly and Puerto Rico could get caught in the middle of this debate (in a way it already is), therefor I also tend to agree with the idea of Puerto Rico becoming the 51 State. But considering I don't live there, I am not deep into figuring out where exactly I stand, but my family does and so I do think about it. Worse case scenario, they'll move over here before all hell breaks lose.
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Reply #16 June 11, 2008 12:59:02 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
When do immigrants become full citizens? When they fill out the paperwork, pay their various fees, and take the vows of citizenship.


I couldnt agree with you more.

My beloved Other is still a subject of the British Crown, and will remain so regardless of how long He lives here until He takes the above steps.

He was born in England, and that makes it so regardless of his racial makeup, which is of the mongrel variety, Black Irish, Egyptian, and god-knows-what-else. This may have pissed Him off as a young 'un, especially since they were Catholics, but His ethnic and religious background never aligned His sympathies with the IRA, nor should it have, because as badly as the Irish Catholics were being treated in Northern Ireland, it was His own countrymen and neighbors whose slaughter he witnessed on a regular basis.


The mere fact that he has spent so much money and has gone to hell and back for our beloved Gov't, it's a shame, a smack in the face and a total disregard and disrespect for those who have done and are doing it the right way to allow people who entered illegally to simply become legal just because.
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Reply #17 June 11, 2008 1:57:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
LW:

When do immigrants become full citizens? When they fill out the paperwork, pay their various fees, and take the vows of citizenship.


if this is true, then why do we have all these hyphenated identities? african-american, chinese-american, mexican-american, etcetera? if a married couple is mexican-american, for example, will they call their children "mexican-american"? what about the census bureau? what about you?

charles says he's "ame-rican."

In that regard, I think nationality transcends race, or at least it should.


i wonder where religion fits within this scheme. i'm jewish: jewish people have been invited and booted out of nearly every european country. i consider myself an american. but i wouldn't say american politics moves me so fundamentally that national borders transcends all else. nationality: is it where you pay your taxes? or a piece of land to which i swear my allegiance? to a social effort that aims toward a common ideal - like The Pursuit of Happiness?

what does "aryan nation" or "nation of islam" mean?

As free agents, (in most of the western world, at least) we are able to CHOOSE our allegiences, we aren't tightly bound by race and class and circumstances of our birth


but, if not bound, then maybe we are rooted in class experience. with effort or through circumstance, perhaps we can slide across the threshold between classes. and if we believe our government or social system doesn't mesh with our sense of identity, perhaps we can move to a different country.

but, not all citizens of countries can simply choose to which country they belong. their country of origin has to agree, as does the destination country. all of this is to say: we are given choices to choose from.

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Reply #18 June 11, 2008 2:03:43 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Partido Popular Democratico (PPD) - This party believes in basically keeping Puerto Rico the way it is, the best of both worlds. Not being part of the US yet having all the benefits and title (American) like every other American does. They want Puerto Rico to maintain it's culture while still adding and enjoying the US culture.

Partido Nuevo Prograsista (PNP) - This party believes Puerto Rico should become State 51 of the US. Become party of the US to take 100% full benefits of this joining. They believe Puerto rico should be more like the US, possible even willing to sacrifice some of what make this Island so unique (the culture) for the benefit of it's people.


what sort of culture would puerto rico need to sacrifice? we're basically talking about an essential, perhaps indescribable, sense of identity, right? if puerto rico became the 51st state, would puerto rican identity change? part this, part that?

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Reply #19 June 11, 2008 3:11:24 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
what sort of culture would puerto rico need to sacrifice? we're basically talking about an essential, perhaps indescribable, sense of identity, right? if puerto rico became the 51st state, would puerto rican identity change? part this, part that?


Well for starters English would become the national language. School education would change from the current system (which is in part based on Puerto Rican culture) to the US system. Things such as restaurants and street vendors will be subjected to the US standards which are much more stricter and even Tv and radio could change as US law becomes the new rule. In essence everything that makes Puerto Rico what it is today would little by little be replaced with an American culrture that is already taking over very slowly.
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Reply #20 June 12, 2008 2:53:20 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
granted, i don't know anything about aust. economics or politics; however, it sounds like your "self" identifies closely with your economic class . . .


Not exactly - most with a similar background would be a fair way to left of me - but it is a major factor. Money allows for greater opportunity and specialisation, which leads to a greater number of narrow, fairly discrete identities. To take it to an extreme, compare the variety of identities I can be at any one time to that of a remote rural aboriginal child. The number of identities that can influence me is greater, but that doesn't mean that I'm rule by more than one perspective at any one time. I'll still - whether consciously or subconsciously - gather the most relevant example and declare that as my identity in the situation.

but even when we have the choice to choose other, we rarely are allowed to simply sign our name - we are never aligning with our OWN unique identity, are we? not socially, at least.


In Australia it's illegal to require someone to fill in their ethnicity, disabilities or any other 'big-ticket' factor - you can usually get away with a name, date of birth and address. Other questions might be asked, but you can nearly always skip them.

In any case your name aligns you with a cultural identity just as sure as ticking ethnicity boxes does. John is probably Anglo, or at least from an Anglo culture, a Nguyen is probably Vietnamese or half-Vietnamese, Chan is probably Chinese, etc.

all of this is to say: we are given choices to choose from.


Sure, but do you want things to do be different? If people could do and be whatever they desired, they would choose the kind of world we live in - after all, they did choose it.
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Reply #21 June 12, 2008 4:40:35 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Charles: "Well for starters English would become the national language. School education would change from the current system (which is in part based on Puerto Rican culture) to the US system. Things such as restaurants and street vendors will be subjected to the US standards which are much more stricter and even Tv and radio could change as US law becomes the new rule. In essence everything that makes Puerto Rico what it is today would little by little be replaced with an American culrture that is already taking over very slowly."


this was part of what inspired this article. political allegiances affecting our identities, even affecting the way we relate (or to whom we relate) in our social environments. LW wrote (somewhere in this thread) that she thought nationality transcends (or supersedes?) other cultural indicators, such as race. sometimes i think economic identity transcends everything - although economic identities can be imposed by national governments . . .

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Reply #22 June 12, 2008 5:05:17 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
cacto: "Money allows for greater opportunity and specialisation, which leads to a greater number of narrow, fairly discrete identities"


very true - these days, people are finding more and more niche groups to identify with - but these are still social identities (and not unique on the level of the individual). also, global economics, and the media attached in the sidecar, adds a new factor to financial identity: mobility. global econ and media bring the world to more people than ever, while at the same time, more people than ever are being called across national borders to fulfill economic needs. i don't know how this affects australian economics or politics. still, your example of the aboriginal child interests me - how quickly and dramatically the identity of that child would begin to change if there were to be a sudden cultural overlap.

cacto: "In Australia it's illegal to require someone to fill in their ethnicity, disabilities or any other 'big-ticket' factor - you can usually get away with a name, date of birth and address. Other questions might be asked, but you can nearly always skip them."


when you blog here at joeuser, what "sort" of bloggers do you interact with the most? i tend to think of myself as a citizen of the US more when i blog than at any other time (except when i'm traveling these days - unfortunately). i have other identities that take over, too. i am a fairly liberal fellow, but my views become somewhat exaggerated when i write here, as if that particular distinction fills me with a somewhat uncouth sense of pride. or stubbornness.

i guess i'm saying that identities take shape when you're at "home," but they become more crisp when they contrast with those in a certain social circle - such as the JU forum. in australia, maybe, you aren't asked to fill in cultural titles because of a general identity that rings true for you. pure speculation on my part, of course.

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Reply #23 June 14, 2008 3:07:49 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
i guess i'm saying that identities take shape when you're at "home," but they become more crisp when they contrast with those in a certain social circle - such as the JU forum.


Sure. We define ourselves in opposition to others. When we're at home that definition is very fuzzy around the edges because the Other is fuzzy around the edges. When we're amongst the Other it becomes a very clear definition as the relative importance of that definition becomes more stark from our perspective.
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