What I think could happen to the US » Forum Post by Rolkar

I think most of us are missing the whole point drathkar is making out of himself. Their are deeply disturbed individuals from all races, religions, nations, regions, and sexes . Insanity is not limited to one specific group or race. Has the US commited war crimes? Without a doubt. Has Iraq commited war crimes? Without a doubt. Has Israel commited war crimes? Without a doubt. Has Japan ever commited war crimes? Without a doubt. Has Germany? Britain? France? Spain? Australia? New Zealand? S. Africa? Canada? Mexico? Brazil? Cuba? North or South Korea? Russia? Any of russias breakaway states? Without a doubt. Are all people guilty or responsible of another persons actions taken to defend themselves, their country, or their families? No. I remember one of his earlier posts where he says that he should pay if one of his countrymen does a horrible act. So I guess that means when someone breaks into his home, ties his father to a chair, beats him bloody, and proceeds to rape your mother and sister in front of you and your beat up father you can't do shit, otherwise HIS family should be allowed to repeat the process against you. Good call. Eye for a life. Tooth for a family. Love the logic. Pray you never have children....your uncle fought the Japanese, that means they have the right to kill you or them, hell, maybe even the above scenario may happen to you, just make sure you let the bastard doing it know he has every right to do it since he was harmed. You'll let me in, trust me.

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Can't say anything about blackouts because I never saw them in my area of operation (Fallujah and surrounding area). As for cars, they were either repaired or replaced for the full cost plus whatever we gave them while on patrol. They had access to the fresh water any time they wanted to get it from either the Euphrates or from the human assistance sites within the city.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

DrathKar:

US doesnt commit warcrimes?

http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

Couldn't find the evidence to back up this person's claims.

While I have not done an exhaustive search, neither a search for key words nor a quick scan of the 1977 Geneva Protocols reveals that the types of weapons used were illegal.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/f6c8b9fee14a77fdc125641e0052b079

In addition, the claim about violating "the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who 'are out of combat.'" also seems to be false. "Out of combat" never appears in the document, or any of the other similar treaties created in the same year as far as I can tell.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/44072487ec4c2131c125641e004a9977?OpenDocument

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/CONVPRES?OpenView

In addition, the "proof" of this incident consists only of a single picture. I'm not certain how much to believe about the incident.

I'm not even sure if I believe the website was truly written by Ramsey Clark, as it claims. According to the Wikipedia, he founded a website here: http://www.iacenter.org/

. . . and the deoxy.org web page appears nowhere on his page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramsey_Clark

Interestingly enough, Ramsey Clark was a defense lawyer for Saddam Hussein, and it appears has a history of defending other questionable political figures as well. I'm not certain I can trust the words of Ramsey.

. . . but that's all beside the point. You're making broad, sweeping generalizations about an entire nation based upon hand-picked evidence. Not only that, but you're referring to isolated incidents and pretending that it applies to the bigger picture, even though you fail to provide solid connections between the evidence and the generalization.

The largest violent and hateful genocide in the history of humanity, wasnt Hitlers killing of the jews.

It was the genocide of Native American Indians in what became the USA.
How many americans get taught that there ancestors were more bloody violent spiteful hateful and downright disgusting then Hitler?.

Some of them were, and many of them were during certain periods of time. That does not mean, however, that everybody is "bloody violent spiteful hateful and downright disgusting" all of the time. In addition, you're not showing how this connects to the Iraq war.

damicatz:

Israel is an illegitimate country to begin with.

You mean one of the oldest nations in the region, in which much history took place, and three of the largest religions in the world have their roots in?

I'll give you a hint: There was no U.N. when Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad were alive. The statement "If the United Nations carved out a portion of the US and gave it to an ethnic group . . ." shows vast ignorance about the region. Israel existed a long time before modern events shaped the region. In no way was Israel a country that was formed recently by the U.N.

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There's alot of ignorance and bias-ness in this thread =/

Yes, we do alot of bad things in Iraq, but read up on the Vietnam war a bit. The iraq war has alot more coverage than the Vietnam war. =/

We (USA/UN) spend alot of money in iraq, trying to build up their infrastructure. There's people in it who don't want this to happen for various reasons, and destroy what we put up (we also have a bad habit of doing the same).

It takes alot of effort to re-build a city, introduce an entirely new government while there's people who are trying to stop you from doing that, and poor support at home.

Things are looking much better in Iraq than it did a year ago. That's all I'm going to say here.

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Maybe you should lay off the neo-con kool-aid for a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semitic_peoples

"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom request the Secretary-Gen[/quote]

Israel is an illegitimate country to begin with. If the United Nations carved out a portion of the US and gave it to an ethnic group who then instituted an apartheid government and waged war against us, you'd be upset too. The United Nations along with the US and other allied nations railroaded Arab nations and kicked Arabs out of the land they had been occupying for thousands of years.[/quote]Wrong, The British did not ask The United Nations to get involved until April 1947 just a little more than thirty days before Israel was createdOn 14 May 1948, Israel proclaimed its independence. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.Dr. Victor Chi Tsai Hoo,United Nations,Lake Success New York2 April 1947Sir, I have received the following message from my Government: "His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom request the Secretary-General of the United Nations to place the question of Palestine on the agenda of the General Assembly at its next regular annual session. They will submit to the Assembly an account of their administration of the League of Nations mandate and will ask the Assembly to make recommendations, under Article 10 of the Charter, concerning the future government of Palestine. In making this request, His Majesty's Government draw the attention of the Secretary-General to the desirability of an early settlement in Palestine and to the risk that the General Assembly might not be able to decide upon its recommendations at its next regular annual session unless some preliminary study of the question had previously been made under the auspices of the United Nations. They therefore request the Secretary-General to summon, as soon as possible, a special session of the General Assembly for the purpose of constituting and instructing a special committee to prepare for the consideration, at the regular session of the Assembly, of the question referred to in the preceding paragraph." I have the honour to be ... (Signed) Alexander Cadogan During the first months of 1949, direct negotiations were conducted under UN auspices between Israel and each of the invading countries (except Iraq, which refused to negotiate with Israel), resulting in armistice agreements which reflected the situation at the end of the fighting. That would place U.N. involvement AFTER THE WAR.[qupte]Israel's neighbors have tried to make peace with them.

My Lord are you really that foolish that you would make this statement in public and not know that you are a fool?The only countries that have tried to make peace with Israel are Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. All three have peace treaties with Israel.The only other times any Arab country has tried to make peace is when they were facing destruction.It’s like Sadam when he was captured saying “I am ready to negotiate the terms of my surrender” Really, no kidding, Now you want to negotiate? Israel is the one that is not interested in peace. They've more than doubled the size of their borders since their illegitimate inception. Yes only doubled their size. And just how much land have they returned?The Arab nations didn't attack the USS Liberty.Neither did the Pope The Arab nations didn't run over peace activist Rachael Corrie with a bulldozer (twice for good measure at that). Your right & they also did not attack pearl harbor in 1941The Arab nations aren't the ones using children as human shields.Your right, they strap bombs onto their children and send them out to murder other children. Israel's Arab neighbors don't go around kidnapping people from other countries (Nuclear weapons whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu comes to mind).Your right they just put a fatwa on them Oh and, newsflash : Arabs are semetic peoples as well. Before calling me an anti-semite, you may wish to familiarize yourself with what the term semeitic means.Nice try. But you fail in your effort to deflect attention away from the truth. You are an anti-Semite, I will go further than that to say you are obviously a Jew Hater, most likely you are a card carrying Nazi. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. 1. A Jew. 2. Bible A descendant of Shem. The Pro-Israel lobby has twisted that term around and used it to scare away people who dare to criticize them and their "country". The nazis controlling the arab nations propaganda is patently false as well.Wrong, I have sited my sources as well. It is an undisputed (except by the Nazis themselves) fact that the current government of Syria is directly operated by what is now a second generation of leaders who trace their very political existence directly to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Most specifically the Mufti of Palestine. Listed below is a link to a video that will provide you with some background. I am certain you will not bother to look at the anti-Nazi propaganda but others willhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU Merely being opposed to zionism does not make one a nazi. And do not forget that history is written by the winners. True, but you did not make anti-Zionist statements you spouted Nazi rhetoric. And as part of your second comment what are you insinuating with the remark about winners writing history? Are you implying that the holocaust did not occur? (Nazi rhetoric)That Hitler was not as bad as people say? (Nazi rhetoric)That the Motif of Palestine and founder of the modern Arab nationalist movement was not a Nazi?Please carify. Zi•on•ism (zī'ə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key n. A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.The US has become like the Roman empire.Same tired old nonsense. The government is corruptYawn it no longer serves the people.Another yawn We have military stationed in 100s of countries.Hundreds you say? Really? Hundreds? Wow how many countries are their one earth? At last count I was only aware of 189. Gee guess we are like the roman empire after all, we are in every county on earth and a few more besides.. Government has become bloated and we have overextended ourselves.And by supplying weapons to terrorist nations such as Israel, the US has made lots of enemiesPoint one: YawnPoint two: YawnPoint three: I agree, we have made a lot of you Nazi lovers our enemies.. We invade other countries; depose their leaders and manipulate their governments. The US helped to overthrew the lawful and democratically elected government in Iran shortly after WW2 and replaced it with a puppet dictatorship for the purpose of oil.I almost fell over backwards on this one... You finally got one right! The US gave weapons to terrorists such as Osama Bin Laden.Remove the “such as” We gave weapons to him. To fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.The US imposes double-standards. While we insist on inspecting Iran for so-called weapons of mass destruction, Israel is given a free pass (despite the fact that they themselves are developing nuclear weapons).Bad example and wrong again Israel is not developing nuclear weapons, they already have them While we balk at countries like North Korea when they work on nuclear weapons, we maintain one of the largest stockpiles of them in the world.Again you keep misrepresenting the facts. We do not maintain “one of” the largest stockpiles, we maintain THE LARGEST STOCKPILE! Such blatant hypocriscy does little to foster good relations.Our meddling directly resulted in 9/11. We supplied weapons to Israel which they then aggressively used against their Arab neighbors and we helped Israel occupy lands considered holy to the Islamic religion. Yes we did provide them weapons that they have used to preserve their existence from your Nazi friends.Do not believe the propaganda that the US was attacked because these terrorists hate our way of life or because they hate democracy.Partly true, it was because we are not Muslims. We were attacked because we committed acts of war against them;Yes, we have committed acts of war against the Nazis, and we shall continue to commit acts of war against the Nazis. we armed their sworn enemies.True, we have armed many a people who are the sworn enemy of those Nazis. We got involved in a conflict that did not concern us and we paid the price much as we did with Pearl Harbor.Yes, you’re right. How dare we attempt to stop them from conquering the world and marching us all into gas chambers when they run out of Jews to kill?Unless the current course of action is reversed, and soon, the US will go the way of the Roman Empire.You mean we will go down in History as the single most powerful civilization in all of recorded history?News flash, we already have them beat.{quote] Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeatSig heil to that my friend sig heil!

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Maybe you should lay off the neo-con kool-aid for a bit.

As soon as others get their noses out of the butt holes of the Nazi propagandist movement.

I had been warning people of rise of the Nazis in the Middle East a far back as 1984.

I began my investigation of all of this when Anwar Sadat was assonated in 1981. I had asked myself “why would his own people murder him for making peace with a neighbor and wanting to bring prosperity and freedom to his own people?" As I followed the trail of those people who did it began to become quite clear to me.

I was shocked when I first found the connection and then verified it via other resources. (remember no internet) It amazes me that we did not go in and finish the job in 1945. We did manage to defeat the Nazi war machine and eliminate its primary source of development, but to have allowed so many of its supporters to gather in one place and gain control of governments? This also prompted me to realize certain connections with some South American countries as well.

I mean even though we had not yet begun to drill for the oil in the mid east yet, we had known about the Hugh fields as far back as 1936 and we keep that information under wraps at that time to prevent the Nazis from getting at the oil even before the war started. So we knew what was coming (even if there was nothing we could realistically do at that time to prevent it).

My only guess is that those who were aware figured that the ideology would be rejected and fade away within a generation. Obviously they were mistaken. The Nazi ideologies spread and look at it now. The Bathist party, (formed directly from a surviving S.S. unit), Syria and Hamas and so on.

I become ill when I hear others spouting forth support of the Nazi propaganda machine. Do you not know that they will not stop until everyone including you, unless you are a Muslim of the same creed as they, is dead? Do you not realize that they are out to conquer the entire world by force and to eliminate everything and everyone, including all other creeds of Islam that even dare to question them?
Yet you would espouse as desirable the very outcome they seek? Just look at what they put on their television, just look at what they put forth from their own mouths. They teach their children that it is glorious to murder other children. I know of no other ideology that proclaims that by murdering children you will be guaranteed a place in heaven, that slaughtering people is Holy. (Before you bring up the crusades, remember they were not guaranteed entrance to heaven for killing people.)
When you spout forth the lies, distortions and hate filled propaganda of those people just remember upon whom they have founded their ideology. It is the same as when someone spouted forth pro soviet propaganda and encouraged results to situations that were favorable to the power base of that ideology, they were in fact giving material support to the ideology itself!

If you are spouting forth the lies, distortions and hate filled propaganda of those who are leading the current Arab nationalist movement, you are in fact giving material support to their ideology.

They are the surviving remnants of the Nazi movement founded by the same swastika wearing, Hitler worshiping, hate mongering people. Not people who think like them but by they themselves! , they are Nazis, therefore why would anyone support them, and their endeavors, and spout forth their party line and defend them unless they themselves are a Nazi?

Here are some links to other Muslim groups that are as opposed to the Nazis as am I.

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/
http://www.islamicpluralism.org/

and me a neo con... thats a good one... I had to call my friends and tell them someone called me a neo-con.. Hell as far as they are concerned they are still not sure that I am a not a communist. so me, a neo-con? rich

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Ok, you keep believing that the Nazi party is still around and controls the Middle East.

Maybe Hitler is like Elvis and he never really died. Maybe Hitler was even behind the 9/11 attacks.

As for hate propaganda, perhaps you should check your sources. Zionists are some of the most hateful people that I know. They look down upon non-Jews and view them as inferior. Have you ever actually been to Israel? Looked at their laws? If you aren't a jew in Israel, you are a second-class citizen. You are scum. They segregate their schools based on skin color. If you aren't a jew in Israel, your voice is irrelevant. Israel is no democracy and it certainly isn't a bastion of freedom in the Middle East. It's a clique, a club.

Hitler's intentions were to create a homeland for the German people. Zionists want to create a homeland for Jewish people. Zionists and Israel supporters vilify Hitler while doing a lot of the same things that he did. It's hypocrisy of the worst kind.

You quote sources of history but you fail to realize that history is invariably written by the winners. If the Nazis had won World War II, there would be no mention of a holocaust in any history books. Everything that people say to vilify Nazi Germany would be said about the Allies instead. I distrust mainstream sources for history, especially for 20th century history.

The fact that people are imprisoned for daring to question the history of World War II only reaffirms my suspicions. Never trust a man or a religion who is afraid to be questioned for truth will remain truth under any challenge.

There was nothing heroic about World War II. On either side. It was a tragedy in which millions of innocent people from all sides lost their lives. But to vilify one side while ignoring all of the atrocities committed by the others is hypocrisy. The allies did not fight for justice or for a righteous cause. They fought because their politicians demanded it just as the axis did.

I've said enough. Like most pro-israel people, you resort to petty insults when challenged and attempt to divert attention away from the issue at hand with references to a certain long-extinct regime. Calling me an anti-semite or a nazi or a racist or a bigot or any of those terms won't scare me away from my opinion. You are not the first people to call me that for daring to criticize what I see as unjust and you won't be the last.

Maybe you should lay off the neo-con kool-aid for a bit.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semitic_peoples"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom request the Secretary-Gen[/quote]Israel is an illegitimate country to begin with. If the United Nations carved out a portion of the US and gave it to an ethnic group who then instituted an apartheid government and waged war against us, you'd be upset too. The United Nations along with the US and other allied nations railroaded Arab nations and kicked Arabs out of the land they had been occupying for thousands of years.[/quote]Wrong, The British did not ask The United Nations to get involved until April 1947 just a little more than thirty days before Israel was createdOn 14 May 1948, Israel proclaimed its independence. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.Dr. Victor Chi Tsai Hoo,United Nations,Lake Success New York2 April 1947Sir, I have received the following message from my Government: "His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom request the Secretary-General of the United Nations to place the question of Palestine on the agenda of the General Assembly at its next regular annual session. They will submit to the Assembly an account of their administration of the League of Nations mandate and will ask the Assembly to make recommendations, under Article 10 of the Charter, concerning the future government of Palestine. In making this request, His Majesty's Government draw the attention of the Secretary-General to the desirability of an early settlement in Palestine and to the risk that the General Assembly might not be able to decide upon its recommendations at its next regular annual session unless some preliminary study of the question had previously been made under the auspices of the United Nations. They therefore request the Secretary-General to summon, as soon as possible, a special session of the General Assembly for the purpose of constituting and instructing a special committee to prepare for the consideration, at the regular session of the Assembly, of the question referred to in the preceding paragraph." I have the honour to be ... (Signed) Alexander Cadogan During the first months of 1949, direct negotiations were conducted under UN auspices between Israel and each of the invading countries (except Iraq, which refused to negotiate with Israel), resulting in armistice agreements which reflected the situation at the end of the fighting. That would place U.N. involvement AFTER THE WAR.[qupte]Israel's neighbors have tried to make peace with them.My Lord are you really that foolish that you would make this statement in public and not know that you are a fool?The only countries that have tried to make peace with Israel are Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. All three have peace treaties with Israel.The only other times any Arab country has tried to make peace is when they were facing destruction.It’s like Sadam when he was captured saying “I am ready to negotiate the terms of my surrender” Really, no kidding, Now you want to negotiate? Israel is the one that is not interested in peace. They've more than doubled the size of their borders since their illegitimate inception. Yes only doubled their size. And just how much land have they returned?The Arab nations didn't attack the USS Liberty.Neither did the Pope The Arab nations didn't run over peace activist Rachael Corrie with a bulldozer (twice for good measure at that). Your right & they also did not attack pearl harbor in 1941The Arab nations aren't the ones using children as human shields.Your right, they strap bombs onto their children and send them out to murder other children. Israel's Arab neighbors don't go around kidnapping people from other countries (Nuclear weapons whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu comes to mind).Your right they just put a fatwa on them Oh and, newsflash : Arabs are semetic peoples as well. Before calling me an anti-semite, you may wish to familiarize yourself with what the term semeitic means.Nice try. But you fail in your effort to deflect attention away from the truth. You are an anti-Semite, I will go further than that to say you are obviously a Jew Hater, most likely you are a card carrying Nazi. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. 1. A Jew. 2. Bible A descendant of Shem. The Pro-Israel lobby has twisted that term around and used it to scare away people who dare to criticize them and their "country". The nazis controlling the arab nations propaganda is patently false as well.Wrong, I have sited my sources as well. It is an undisputed (except by the Nazis themselves) fact that the current government of Syria is directly operated by what is now a second generation of leaders who trace their very political existence directly to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Most specifically the Mufti of Palestine. Listed below is a link to a video that will provide you with some background. I am certain you will not bother to look at the anti-Nazi propaganda but others willhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU Merely being opposed to zionism does not make one a nazi. And do not forget that history is written by the winners. True, but you did not make anti-Zionist statements you spouted Nazi rhetoric. And as part of your second comment what are you insinuating with the remark about winners writing history? Are you implying that the holocaust did not occur? (Nazi rhetoric)That Hitler was not as bad as people say? (Nazi rhetoric)That the Motif of Palestine and founder of the modern Arab nationalist movement was not a Nazi?Please carify. Zi•on•ism (zī'ə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key n. A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.The US has become like the Roman empire.Same tired old nonsense. The government is corruptYawn it no longer serves the people.Another yawn We have military stationed in 100s of countries.Hundreds you say? Really? Hundreds? Wow how many countries are their one earth? At last count I was only aware of 189. Gee guess we are like the roman empire after all, we are in every county on earth and a few more besides.. Government has become bloated and we have overextended ourselves.And by supplying weapons to terrorist nations such as Israel, the US has made lots of enemiesPoint one: YawnPoint two: YawnPoint three: I agree, we have made a lot of you Nazi lovers our enemies.. We invade other countries; depose their leaders and manipulate their governments. The US helped to overthrew the lawful and democratically elected government in Iran shortly after WW2 and replaced it with a puppet dictatorship for the purpose of oil.I almost fell over backwards on this one... You finally got one right! The US gave weapons to terrorists such as Osama Bin Laden.Remove the “such as” We gave weapons to him. To fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.The US imposes double-standards. While we insist on inspecting Iran for so-called weapons of mass destruction, Israel is given a free pass (despite the fact that they themselves are developing nuclear weapons).Bad example and wrong again Israel is not developing nuclear weapons, they already have them While we balk at countries like North Korea when they work on nuclear weapons, we maintain one of the largest stockpiles of them in the world.Again you keep misrepresenting the facts. We do not maintain “one of” the largest stockpiles, we maintain THE LARGEST STOCKPILE! Such blatant hypocriscy does little to foster good relations.Our meddling directly resulted in 9/11. We supplied weapons to Israel which they then aggressively used against their Arab neighbors and we helped Israel occupy lands considered holy to the Islamic religion. Yes we did provide them weapons that they have used to preserve their existence from your Nazi friends.Do not believe the propaganda that the US was attacked because these terrorists hate our way of life or because they hate democracy.Partly true, it was because we are not Muslims. We were attacked because we committed acts of war against them;Yes, we have committed acts of war against the Nazis, and we shall continue to commit acts of war against the Nazis. we armed their sworn enemies.True, we have armed many a people who are the sworn enemy of those Nazis. We got involved in a conflict that did not concern us and we paid the price much as we did with Pearl Harbor.Yes, you’re right. How dare we attempt to stop them from conquering the world and marching us all into gas chambers when they run out of Jews to kill?Unless the current course of action is reversed, and soon, the US will go the way of the Roman Empire.You mean we will go down in History as the single most powerful civilization in all of recorded history?News flash, we already have them beat.{quote] Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeatSig heil to that my friend sig heil!

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Ok, you keep believing that the Nazi party is still around and controls the Middle East.

That is the demonstrated point here, it is and it does.

Maybe Hitler is like Elvis and he never really died.

His ideology lives on in people like you... that is the point

Maybe Hitler was even behind the 9/11 attacks.

His supporters Yes, that is the point

As for hate propaganda, perhaps you should check your sources. Zionists are some of the most hateful people that I know. They look down upon non-Jews and view them as inferior.

My experience has been quite the opposite, then again unlike you I do not go around espousing pro Nazi ideology, so that could be the difference.

Have you ever actually been to Israel? Looked at their laws? If you aren't a jew in Israel, you are a second-class citizen. You are scum.

Really? Please provide a link to the laws which you are referring to.

They segregate their schools based on skin color.

Please provide a link to the laws which you are referring to.

If you aren't a jew in Israel, your voice is irrelevant. Israel is no democracy and it certainly isn't a bastion of freedom in the Middle East. It's a clique, a club.

Lets break this down into components please.

If you aren't a jew in Israel, your voice is irrelevant.

Um, please provide reference for this

Hitler's intentions were to create a homeland for the German people. Zionists want to create a homeland for Jewish people.

Um, have you ever read Mein Kamuft?

Zionists and Israel supporters vilify Hitler while doing a lot of the same things that he did.

Please show me the gas chambers, gas trucks, or at least some record of the official government sponsored programs instituted by any country that in any way supports Israel’s right to exist, to accomplish the goals that were part of the official government policy of Hitler’s Germany.

It's hypocrisy of the worst kind. You quote sources of history but you fail to realize that history is invariably written by the winners. If the Nazis had won World War II, there would be no mention of a holocaust in any history books. Everything that people say to vilify Nazi Germany would be said about the Allies instead. I distrust mainstream sources for history, especially for 20th century history.

I can appreciate your point there with one major caveat. I do trust the accounts of the many people I met when I was younger who had the tattoos on their arms. Plus I do trust the accounts told to me by my father’s Uncle about what happened during WW2 and before. (He was in The Italian Army)

The fact that people are imprisoned for daring to question the history of World War II only reaffirms my suspicions.

Who has ever been imprisoned for daring to question the history of WW2? Please provide us with just one name of one person outside of Soviet Russia who was ever imprisoned for that.

Never trust a man or a religion who is afraid to be questioned for truth will remain truth under any challenge.

That is why you should not be trusted, you have demonstrated your fear to be questioned.. ah, condemnation from your own mouth!

There was nothing heroic about World War II. On either side. It was a tragedy in which millions of innocent people from all sides lost their lives. But to vilify one side while ignoring all of the atrocities committed by the others is hypocrisy. The allies did not fight for justice or for a righteous cause. They fought because their politicians demanded it just as the axis did. I've said enough.

Yes, that remark is enough. You make me vomit with your vileness.

Like most pro-israel people, you resort to petty insults when challenged and attempt to divert attention away from the issue at hand with references to a certain long-extinct regime. Calling me an anti-semite or a nazi or a racist or a bigot or any of those terms won't scare me away from my opinion. You are not the first people to call me that for daring to criticize what I see as unjust and you won't be the last.

Nor am I likely to be the last, I am not trying to scare you away from your opinion.

I do not criticize you for criticizing what you see as unfair or unjust. I criticize you for espousing like a parrot the ideology of the Nazis. What has filled your mind with so much hatred towards all mankind that you would align yourself with monsters?

Even in this post of yours you miss the point; you say “long-extinct regime” The point is the regime is not “long-extinct” it is alive and well and you have been blabbering its dogma as your own. One who espouses the dogma of an ideology is of that ideology. The ideology you espouse is that of the Nazis. Therefore you are a Nazi.

Calling you a Nazi is not a petty insult, it a profound insult, the only thing on par would be if I were to accuse you of being a agent of Lucifer.
I hope that one day you will see just what it is you are supporting: the extermination of all mankind except those who adhere to the will and thought of a select few.

I hope you will read the following poem and take into mind that at this moment I am speaking out to you.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group

This is why I feverishly speak out against pro Nazi ideology wither it be from the Islamic fascist or neo-cons or anyone else. I don’t want to be on that list. The list you support!

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Once again, you've demonstrated my point. Rather than trying to counter my points in logical discourse, you resort to insults.

You still haven't answered my question. About how being opposed to Israel makes one a nazi. Stop skirting around the issues.

You are delusional if you believe that the allied nations were any better than the axis nations. Nuking civilian targets. Rounding up Japanese, German, and Italian Americans and hording them into concentration (sorry, "internment") camps. Firebombing Dresden. And don't get me started on the Soviets; they murdered more innocent people than Hitler ever did and their troops raped countless German women and children who had no part in the war.

The allies were warcriminals just like the axis. The only difference is that, unlike the axis, they never had to answer for their crimes. They got medals instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

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Every country has things we aren't proud of and no one is an exception. What is wrong though is to go around starting a flame war based on your errounious beliefs on what you think actually occured. You guys are on polar opposites, just give it a rest.

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Rather than counter your points? Oh lord can you read? Open your eyes. I countered them point by point.

If you think there is no difference between the Nazis and the rest of world you are mentally ill. That is not an insult it is a statement.

Either you have no clue what you are talking about or you suffer from some form of mental illness.

You have made yourself clear that you are a supporter of Hitler and the Nazi ideology, that makes you a sub human monster.

It has nothing to do with your position on any particular issue; you have stated you are a defender of Hitler and the Nazis.

There is nothing more to say.

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You countered nothing. Everytime I have made an argument or a point, you have responded with insults.

Calling me mentally ill is not an argument.
Calling me a nazi is not an argument.
Comparing me to lucifer is not an argument.
Calling me a subhuman is not an argument.
Calling me a monster is not an argument.
Posting links to activist groups and then attempting to pass it off as fact is not an argument.
Poems do not form arguements.

You also have a bad habit of forming strawman arguements; misrepresenting my positions and putting words into my mouth that I never said. Pray tell where I said in this thread that I was a defender of Nazism or Hitler.

You are an excellent practitioner of sophistry. You are not so good at logical discourse or debate.

Rather than counter your points? Oh lord can you read? Open your eyes. I countered them point by point.If you think there is no difference between the Nazis and the rest of world you are mentally ill. That is not an insult it is a statement.Either you have no clue what you are talking about or you suffer from some form of mental illness.You have made yourself clear that you are a supporter of Hitler and the Nazi ideology, that makes you a sub human monster. It has nothing to do with your position on any particular issue; you have stated you are a defender of Hitler and the Nazis.There is nothing more to say.

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It is man's nature to want to force other people to adhere to his views. In reality that is what armed conflict is: forcefully imposing your will on others. I seriously doubt that Hitler's ideologies have much to do with the middle east or the groups that terrorize it. Terrorism and terrorist tactics as they are today evolved from the IRA's success in Ireland.

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forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/Godwinslaw/page/5

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You countered nothing. Everytime I have made an argument or a point, you have responded with insults.Calling me mentally ill is not an argument.Calling me a nazi is not an argument.Comparing me to lucifer is not an argument.Calling me a subhuman is not an argument.Calling me a monster is not an argument.Posting links to activist groups and then attempting to pass it off as fact is not an argument.Poems do not form arguements.You are an excellent practitioner of sophistry. You are not so good at logical discourse or debate.
Rather than counter your points? Oh lord can you read? Open your eyes. I countered them point by point.If you think there is no difference between the Nazis and the rest of world you are mentally ill. That is not an insult it is a statement.Either you have no clue what you are talking about or you suffer from some form of mental illness.You have made yourself clear that you are a supporter of Hitler and the Nazi ideology, that makes you a sub human monster. It has nothing to do with your position on any particular issue; you have stated you are a defender of Hitler and the Nazis.There is nothing more to say.

Again, go back to the post where I listed the points Reply#108

Calling you mentally ill was not intended to be an argument. It was a statement. If you support the ideology of Adolf Hitler then you are mentally ill.

You proclaim to support the ideology of Adolf Hitler, What would that make you if not a self proclaimed Nazi?
I did not compare you to Lucifer. I said that you were a Nazi and that it was not intended as a petty insult but as a profound insult, the reference to Lucifer was as shown a comparison to get across to you the depth of the insult to you
Calling you a monster was not even an attempt at an argument it was a statement. You are a Nazi that makes you a sub human monster. Are you trying to say that Nazis are not sub human monsters?

Posting links to those activist groups was showing you how even those who are opposed to the policies of Israel and who are Muslims themselves also acknowledge that the Nazis are behind the current movement in the Middle East.

The problem here seems to be that you do not want to accept that your ideology is that of the Nazis. You espouse and have even acknowledged that others have informed you that you are a Nazi.
You need to either go back and review what it is you believe or accept that you are in fact a Nazi.
I do after all accept the fact that I am a Capitalist, along with all the short comings that go along with capitalist Ideology.
I also accept and acknowledge that I am an American Nationalist along with all the short comings that go with that.

You however, seem to have some difficulty with recognizing that you in fact espouse the Nazi ideology.

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It is man's nature to want to force other people to adhere to his views. In reality that is what armed conflict is: forcefully imposing your will on others. I seriously doubt that Hitler's ideologies have much to do with the middle east or the groups that terrorize it. Terrorism and terrorist tactics as they are today evolved from the IRA's success in Ireland.

who were also allied with the Nazis you might add.
oh and the link you gave https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/Godwinslaw/page/5
does not work

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Godwin's law :
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's law refers to the phenomenon in which the longer an internet discussion goes on, the higher the probability of a reference to Nazis. A law which you have demonstrated quite impeccably, I might add.

You may also wish to read up on the logical fallacies of Guilt By Association, Questionable Cause and Reductio ad Hitlerum.

See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

It is man's nature to want to force other people to adhere to his views. In reality that is what armed conflict is: forcefully imposing your will on others. I seriously doubt that Hitler's ideologies have much to do with the middle east or the groups that terrorize it. Terrorism and terrorist tactics as they are today evolved from the IRA's success in Ireland.who were also allied with the Nazis you might add.oh and the link you gave https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/Godwinslaw/page/5does not work

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@carbon016

I invoke the following in reponce to your satement: Quirk's Exception

but I wll now abide by the following: Formosa's Law

I do so now before there is any confusion (additional)

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

If this discussion can not remain civil the thread will be locked.

Play nice, and act like adults.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

1. The US will fall soon because of all of the debt it has accumulated in it's recent war with Iraq.2. OR the US will, in 20 to 200 years, become an empire that wants to take over the entire world and then fall into oblivion when almost all other nations unite to stop them.

Neither is likely.

Item #1. The US debt is relatively small as a % of its GDP. Similarly, its deficits are relatively small as a of its budget. $300 billion or $8 trillion or whatever sound big - they are - but it's all relative.

Item #2 The US is not imperalistic. It is a former colony and has always been hostile (war of 1898 withstanding) to empire. I realize it's all the rage for young Europeans and such to call the US imperalistic at the drop of a hat, but there's not a lot of evidence to support that. if the US was imperalistic, Canada and Mexico would be states by now.

Ultimately, the government of a representative republic like the United States will reflect to a large degree the wishes of its population. Most Americans have no desire to expand the United States.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

I was going to be an asshole and make Hitler jokes for SpacePony, but shit...

Damicatz, please don't breed.

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I say just lock the thread, they just keep going around and around and around. ALL nations have committed crimes of war. To think any differently just shows your ignorance and to demand proof also shows ignorance. All it takes is for just one person to commit a crime while wearing the armed forces uniform of his nation for it to be a war crime, under orders or not. Armed forces represent the military of a nation. Any crime committed against another from a nation with which you are at war with is a war crime.

I must admit ignorance on the Israel subject however. I never understood why so many people seem to hate the jews. But thats just me.

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Spacepony, you're too old to be playing with the kids.
Get a new thread to discuss the nature of shadowy Nazi powers but this is far off topic
Back on topic, many people have pointed out the vast foreign debt of the USA as a weakness. However there is a school of thought amongst the asian financial community, (particularly China and HKSAR) that borrowing money works out better for the USA and worse for China.
As the theory goes, China, which holds a trillion in bonds from the USA, is at severe risk of devaluation of the currency and thus of the bonds they hold. The currency devalues when the USA prints more money or when people stop buying the bonds (very simplified explanation, some finance major please correct any mistakes). China is the largest buyer of bonds and the logic goes that if China stops buying, the bonds they currently hold will devalue, as everyone else will stop buying (because they will devalue). Thus, China is in a position where it must keep lending money to the USA to stop losing on their current loans (ie, being shafted). The best solution for China to not lose is for the loans they give to the USA to improve their economy so the bonds they hold become valuable again, so it becomes a win-win (really a small gains-big win) situation.
Derivatives of this theory go to say that this is one of the reasons for their massive overseas and military investments and the Chain-of-Pearls strategy, to convert the bonds they hold into something less likely to depreciate. The Chain of Pearls strategy for those who haven't heard is a string of Chinese funded ports and bases all along the route to the middle east to safeguard their oil supplies. The significance of this is that it is an opportunity for them to quietly get rid of the bonds they hold so in case the USA does the stupid thing of spending their loan on more carriers or wars, China can cut their losses and have some power to resist a belligerent American strategy.
All that being said, it is only one of the many economic theories, but one thing most are sure of is that America insists on going down the path of Military Keynesianism (the belief that military spending will provide sufficient economic stimulus), the future does not look good for anyone.

+1

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I say just lock the thread, they just keep going around and around and around.

I second that, this thread has become pure flame and name calling, really sad Pony and damicatz.

But before that...

I realize it's all the rage for young Europeans and such to call the US imperalistic at the drop of a hat

Most people i've heard call the US imperialistic are from south america (Chavez comes to mind).Many South Americans consider the US imperialistic out of ignorance mostly. US private companies have used/exploited south america to make lots of money, the US goverment laws protects those companies. also the US have intefered many times with the politics and leaders of south america, for example when the US sent marines to panama. Still, none of those makes the US imperialistic, if anything it just make the US greedy.

I guess its more a way to demonize the enemy in order to hate it without pity or compasion or understanding.

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Spacepony, you're too old to be playing with the kids.

Get a new thread to discuss the nature of shadowy Nazi powers but this is far off topic

Back on topic, many people have pointed out the vast foreign debt of the USA as a weakness. However there is a school of thought amongst the asian financial community, (particularly China and HKSAR) that borrowing money works out better for the USA and worse for China.As the theory goes, China, which holds a trillion in bonds from the USA, is at severe risk of devaluation of the currency and thus of the bonds they hold.

The currency devalues when the USA prints more money or when people stop buying the bonds (very simplified explanation, some finance major please correct any mistakes). China is the largest buyer of bonds and the logic goes that if China stops buying, the bonds they currently hold will devalue, as everyone else will stop buying (because they will devalue).

Thus, China is in a position where it must keep lending money to the USA to stop losing on their current loans (ie, being shafted). The best solution for China to not lose is for the loans they give to the USA to improve their economy so the bonds they hold become valuable again, so it becomes a win-win (really a small gains-big win) situation.Derivatives of this theory go to say that this is one of the reasons for their massive overseas and military investments and the Chain-of-Pearls strategy, to convert the bonds they hold into something less likely to depreciate.

The Chain of Pearls strategy for those who haven't heard is a string of Chinese funded ports and bases all along the route to the middle east to safeguard their oil supplies. The significance of this is that it is an opportunity for them to quietly get rid of the bonds they hold so in case the USA does the stupid thing of spending their loan on more carriers or wars, China can cut their losses and have some power to resist a belligerent American strategy.

All that being said, it is only one of the many economic theories, but one thing most are sure of is that America insists on going down the path of Military Keynesianism (the belief that military spending will provide sufficient economic stimulus), the future does not look good for anyone.

That is a very intresting line of thought. I think I shall persue obtining some potential sources to see how much validity there is to it.. Thought provoking.

I was going to be an asshole and make Hitler jokes for SpacePony, but shit...

Growl, snarl, growl

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