In another blog, I was asked this question: Do you believe a person must be Catholic to get to Heaven?
The short answer is I believe the only requirement for a person to get to Heaven is that person's soul must be completely free of sin.
Regarding the Church, Christ developed the image of the Good Shepherd and His Church through the image of the flock or sheepfold and who will be in it. Read St. John 10 only 42 short verses.
"I am the Good Shepherd; and I know mine and mine know me" v. 14 ..."And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also, I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." v. 16 "As the Father knoweth me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep" v. 15 ....the Father and I are one." v. 30.
As far as the Church, I believe it cannot be a matter of indifference to which Church I belong. I have examined the reasons for my Catholic faith and also the claims of the Catholic Church. She is the only possible Church historically, Scripturallly, and logically and that she must be infallible in her official teachings in faith and morals. Once I knew that the Catholic Church is divinely qualified to speak the truth in religious matters, I accept her decisions and definitions. As far as I'm concerned nothing could be more wise than that. In fact, it would be sheer folly to do otherwise.
I believe that since Christ established one Church, I am not free to belong to any other. I believe that nevertheless, all those outside the Church through no fault of their own will be saved if they follow their conscience and do not die in mortal sin.
I cannot conscientiously say that one religion is as good as another. I believe that those who labor under ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance be invincible, are not before the eyes of God burdened with guilt for this thing. I believe that those will be lost who are convinced that the Catholic religion is the true religion and yet refuse to embrace it.
I believe that is what I mean when I say: "Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation."
Is it not God's will that all should be Catholic?
I believe it is. For Christ established the Catholic Church, and commanded her go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn and of the Holy Spirit. But He said also, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not shall be condemned." He thereby tells us that not all who hear the truth will accept it. He Himself did not convert all to whom He preached. In individual cases, we must refuse to judge in which even those who have heard the truth concerning the Catholic Chruch apprehend its significance. Their responsibiliity in remaining non-Catholics must be left to Almighty God.
Meantime, we Catholics pray for them realizing that God's time is the best time. It is for us to pray that He give them the grace of the Catholic faith, and that they may correspond with that grace despite all difficulties when it becomes clear to them where God is calling them.
In answer to your question Lula, NO ... Catholics are not the only ones that may go to Heaven ... were it real. As a matter of fact, I can think of no hell worse than spending 'eternity' surrounded by nothing besides Catholics, call it what you will. The question has never been about my believing in the supernatural as this is impossible with a sound mind. The question is "Why do you refute the sciences which can be proved accurate?” It is one thing to 'just' believe something but it is foolhardy to disbelieve anything real because of it. The only time science and theology but heads is when you religious folk try to bend the sciences to fit into your ethereal beliefs. By definition alone it isn’t going to happen … so stop trying.
Both the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Protestant King James Version has St.Matt. 13:55-56 as having the word "brethren", not "brothers".
That's the same word. The word "brother" has two plurals. This is due to how Germanic languages work. There are two different declension systems and some words fit both and in some of those cases both plurals survived, even though one will seem archaic. English has -s and (a few) -n plurals ("houses", "oxen").German shows the same phenomenon with four plurals, -s (rare), -n, umlaut-r, and -e. Some words have two plurals, like "Mann" (man) which features both "Maenner" and "Mannen" and "Wort" (word) with "Worte" and "Woerter".A really annoying case is "Magnet" (magnet), where both declension systems are actually in use, whereas in most other cases one sounds archaic.Again, it is important not to read Biblical meaning into the grammatical quirks of languages the text has been translated into!
Whether it says "brothers" or "brethren" simply depended on the translator's will and the time he lived in. It does not channel any useful information from the original Greek, most likely.
We agree.
I've already said that as far as I know the only requirement for a person to get to Heaven is that person's soul must be completely free of sin. Apoc. 21:27.
God is Infinitely Just and He metes out just judgments. Therefore we must assume that God judges the actions of each individual person and rewards or punishes him for his actions according to his consciousness of right and wrong, good and evil.
Now, I do assume that the chances of Catholics getting to Heaven are the best as they have the Christ instituted Sacramental means that fortify them for the journey through life to the Eternal Jerusalem.
If Heaven (and Hell) were not real (and they are), what say you as far as what happens to us after our death?
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Atheists will be condemned justly after having refused every proferred grace of God. There are bad Catholics in Hell. We know Heaven isn't a solitary place, but Hell may be.
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You know I've said this before but it's worth saying again. There are many evidences of God's existence. Men do not have to persuade themselves that there is a God. They have to try to persuade themselves that there is no God. Yet, no one who has attained such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. Why don't you believe in God? What is your valid reason (s)?
Thanks Leauki. Very interesting indeed.
The point that cannot be overlooked is that the words "brothers", "brethren", and "sisters" in the Holy Bible have a very wide significance. I've already referred to Genesis 13:8, where Abram says to Lot, we are "brethren", when in actuality Lot was Abram's kinsmen. In Leviticus 21:16, tribesmen were called brethren. Also in Ex. 2:11, brethren were men belonging to the same nation.
The word "brethren" has an extensive meaning even in our own English language and time. Friends, members of the same lodge, club or union are called brethren. Even preachers address their congregations as brethren when none are blood relatives and often many are women!
Lula, I remember what you said before (I wonder how, hehehe) but you do like to repeat yourself a lot for sure. What you didn’t mention was who do you know that has a “pure soul” whatever that is? Sounds to me that the fabled Heaven is destined to be a very lonely place... Aha, there is the fabled purgatory where you guys are to spend your fair share of eternity in … to punish people for behaving like people … those who are not even ‘people’ anymore, go figure. It is certainly not my fault, your inability to prove God exists I mean, so stop blaming me please. The words “…Therefore we must assume …” are totally inappropriate if you are trying to actually make a valid point. I do not see what good and bad has to do with this nonsense of yours because in the final analysis (IYO) your specific mysticism is the only truth there is period and that has nothing to do with good and bad ... only what is Catholic. You take it upon yourselves (as you always do) to self-procure this ‘option’ exclusively for Catholics.
When I die, I am going to see absolutely nothing … just like you are silly. If man is destined for geological longevity (there is nothing pointing that way yet), then we are going to have to do it ourselves because religions like yours are were what is was standing in the way of enlightenment. Truth be told … if Heaven and Hell were REAL … we wouldn’t be having this discussion now would we? So let’s get real too, ok.
“We know Heaven isn't a solitary place, but Hell may be.” Pray tell, how do we know this and maybe that (God help me)? Have you been talking to Elvis again, hahaha? Lula, your logic is something else for sure. This is not rocket science here. I do not believe in God for the same reason I do not believe in voodoo, magic, Islam or any other mysticism and it should be obvious why. I do not need a valid reason for not believing in something I don’t believe in (here is that circular logic of yours). Simply put, if you were born, raised and educated in say India … we again would not be having this discussion and Catholic would take on a whole new meaning … get my drift.
I read this passage somewhere (???) but I liked it: “You Can Safely Assume You’ve Created God In Your Own Image When It Turns Out That God Hates All The Same People You Do.” You might want to think about this more IMO.
This one was in my notes too: "People may use religious agents as a moral compass, forming impressions and making decisions based on what they presume God as the ultimate moral authority would believe or want. The central feature of a compass, however, is that it points north no matter what direction a person is facing. This research suggests that, unlike an actual compass, inferences about God's beliefs may instead point people further in whatever direction they are already facing." By Ed Yong on scienceblogs.com
Ecclesiasticus 3:4, 17, are a couple of verses that help us understand.
"He that loveth God, shall obtain pardon for his sins by prayer, and shall refrain himself from them, and shall be heard in the prayer of days."
17, "and in justice thou shalt be built up, and in the day of affliction thou shalt be remembered, and thy sins shall melt away as the ice in the fair warm weather."
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I have offered many evidences of proof of God, (reason, causality, a law dictated by our voice of conscience, the complexity of nature itself. but you are stubborn.
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The four last things for everyone of us are death, judgment, heaven or hell. Christ told us He will judge all mankind. We are made up of a spiritual and immortal soul and a corruptible body. It's not about what we will "see", but every person will undergo judgment after his death. Hebrews 9:27.
The soul is created by God at the moment of conception. Death will give freedom to the soul emancipating it from the chains of mere matter. Then the soul will immediately be conscious of itself and of other beings invisible to us now. The soul will be conscious of all spiritual biengs and above all of God. After death has released the soul from the body, the soul will come into immediate contact with God, provided it has deserved to do so. God is meant to be the terminus of the soul's journey, so that life will carry us back to our Source and the Source of all life.
Serious and unrepentent sin can alone hinder its doing so, the result then being the disastrous wreckage in eternal Hell.
Spoken like an atheist.
Science will never free man from the necessity to die and he will never succeed in prolonging it indefinitely. However, the Church fully stands behind scientific means that man may do their best to prolong life against the ravages of disease. Medical science and supernatural faith is the best way of healing.
Ya, let's get real. It's because Death, God, Judgment, Heaven and Hell are real that we are having this discussion.
God is Wise. He made man the highest form of creation and endowed him with reason. Man alone can know his Maker. And as love follows the knowedge of what is good, man can love his Maker. It would be an insult to the Infinite Wisdom of God to suggest that He made mankind to live but a few years and then to end like a termite, a tree or a dog.
And God is not only Wise, He is Just. Justice demands that there be a God. If there is no future life, what of justice? Good and evil are not balanced in this life. Good people often suffer and the evil ones often do well. In fact, if there is no future life, there is no true morality, for there is no sufficient sanction. Rob, lie, murder...only be careful in doing so.
There is but one truth. If there be immortality we can understand God reserving the full manifestation of justice for the next life. But if there be no immortality, then there is no God at all. And for those who believe there is no immortality, the proofs should be pretty strong. But what proofs are there? There are none.
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Lula, if you could prove your God exists then we wouldn’t even be having this discussion? This view is not exclusively mine as you well know. Proof has little to do with reason, casualty, a voice of conscience or the complexities of Nature I am afraid. I do not have a stubborn bone in my body I just require actual proof to sway my stubborn mind, hahaha. Until we get past this sore point, I am afraid all your mystical quotes are … well meaningless. If you cannot prove the book is about something real … then it is a fiction.
Coming to faith in God really is not about proof. I could show you evidence after evidences but until the spirit of God opens eyes, it can't happen. Look at the miracles Christ did, thousands of them, yet they still crucified him. They acknowledged that he did the miracles (never was a question) and that he was unlike any other, but in the end it was their own selfish desires that won out sending Him to the cross. They wanted to believe what they wanted to believe. They wanted life to go on as before He showed up. He messed up their agenda which in effect amounts to their desiring to be their own god.
That's really what is's all about in the end. Doing it God's way or your way.
Jesus said "believing is seeing." Until one comes to faith, he cannot "see." It takes belief to see and that belief can only come from one source. Not from ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Proof or evidence of God's existence has been offered time and time again. By proof, no one of course, means God's existence is capable of being verified by experimental science. So, if experimental science is what you'll only accept then your statement is correct.
But by proof or evidence, men are endowed with reason and can appreciate intellectual evidence.
By reason, proof or evidence of God can be in the simple declaration that the existence of the creation, man included, presupposes the existence of a Creator, whom we call God. Nothing in the world came into existence by itself. Motion came from a Mover. Design from a Designer, and life from Life. Even children understand "causality", that something cannot come from nothing. Every effect must be due to a power or agent that caused it. The proof from design whether dealing with a watch or the cosmos and everything that's in it including plant, animal and human life is simple and irrefutable. A watch needs a watch-maker and the cosmos and life needs a Designer, a First Cause who always was. is and will be.
Another proof is the existence of law which evidences the existence of a Law-Maker. The Moral or Natural Law written in our heart enjoins us to do or not to do certain things. We have free will which is the power to reckon correctly or incorrectly and an inner voice of conscience which tells us to do what we know to be right from wrong.
Atheists are a stubborn bunch and for different reasons they prefer to enslave themselves to the dreary gospel of unbelief.
The Book IS about something real..from Genesis to the Apocalypse, it's about Salvation history. The Book is about Someone Real...namely, God Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ.
And even stubborn you knows what history is but what about God Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ's plan of Salvation History?
Catholics believe that salvation is a gift of God, eternal freedom of the soul from the bond of sin. Salvation is the attainment of everlasting union with God. Salvation means the rescue of the eternal soul from sin, from the wrath of God, eternal punishment.
Catholics believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ by His Atonement freed man from the bond of sin. He wants all to be saved, but not against their will.
Catholics believe that Christ instituted the means by which man may be super-naturalized where he'll pass to citizenship in the Eternal kingdom of God. However, Christ demands payment for personal salvation. His price is the one true Faith, expressed in good works.
BT,
Re: the highlighted...it's soul! Ha, ha, ha.
Anyway, Genesis 2:7 gives us a glimpse to the answer of your question.
"ANd the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth; and breathed into his face the breath of life. and man became a living soul."
Catholic theology explains that passage as follows.
Just as God Himself formed Adam, He also forms the human fetus (body) once the sperm cell impregnates the egg. The human fetus becomes a living being when God breathes a soul into it. The soul is the cause of the body's life and without it the body cannot live. When the soul is separated from the body, the body dies.
I agree. Well said.
However, you are jumping ahead here!
I agree, but we aren't discussing coming to Faith in God.
Atheists do not believe in the existence of God.
There are proofs or evidences for God's existence apart from the Bible and apart from the supernatural virtue of Divine Faith.
People can fully believe in the existence of God, yet have no Divine Faith in Him; or love or want to obey Him.
Lula, it is disheartening at best to consider we came from the slime of the Earth … and you prefer this to apes? Apes are fine majestic creatures and I have no problem having them for ancestors … the slime of the Earth huh. “Coming to faith in God really is not about proof.” Well then what is it about? How about the truth for starters? Do you understand what the word “truth’ means; in all respects but one, it means that things correspond to fact or reality. Then the Church stepped in and redefined the term for us to mean only one thing … God. Screw the science, math, physics, archeology, linguistics, actual common sense, true reason and screw above all things actual knowledge because it is the one thing mysticism cannot conquer.
Lula, are you trying to tell me that the sperm cell and the egg are discussed in your book of books too? At what point in the petri dish does God intervene to implant its soul? “People can fully believe in the existence of God, yet have no Divine Faith in Him; or love or want to obey Him.” You are joking again right? And how does this all come about? How does this fit into your Godly pursuits and saving souls? We both know the RCC would hate these ‘people’ just as they profess to hate me. For you RCC religious folk, I am afraid it is the whole shebang or nothing. Why would I be interested in what Catholics “believe” you have repeatedly told me it is all based in mysticism (faith) and you know how well that stuff impresses me?
This is why we cannot communicate: “Catholics believe that salvation is a gift of God, eternal freedom of the soul from the bond of sin. Salvation is the attainment of everlasting union with God. Salvation means the rescue of the eternal soul from sin, from the wrath of God, eternal punishment.” The only things worth talking about in this sentence are the words not underlined … the rest is mysticism without the least bit of proof.
Then, it should comfort you to know that only our physical body came from "the slime of the earth". Is it just as disheartening to know that at our death our physical body will return to the slime of the earth, that is, to dust? Genesis 3:19, "...for dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return".
But really, none of this is disheartening because we are made in the image and likeness of Almighty God. Man is made up of a physical body and a spiritual soul. The likeness of man to God consists in that man has a spiritual soul which not only makes his physical body live, but is also immortal, reasonable (intellect), and gifted with free will. By these 3 qualities it is in a measure like unto God, Who is Eternal, whose intelligence is Supreme and whose will is Infinite.
So while our natural body is frail, subject to sickness and death, becasue it is made from the earth and like every other earthly thing, is perishable, our soul is a spiritual substance directly created by God. Our soul is the life-giving principle of the body.
No Lula, it is no comfort at all. If I had a soul I would know it just like any other cancer in my body. All I have is this old rundown body of mine and I much prefer to be related to a monkey thank you very much. You are right though ... none of the rest is disheartening to me for my own reasons of course, not yours.
Yes, like it or not, believe it or not, man is a composite being consisting of body and soul and the soul is the nobler component taboot.
You are alive ....that's how you know you have a soul. A living human body is not the same as a corpse. The soul is the difference between a corpse and a living body. A dead body falls to pieces and goes back to dust, but there is something that stops the body from doing that now. It's your SOUL.
You know that for every activity you must find a principle of operation behind it. The principle in man which thinks and loves, is happy or miserable is a very real thing. Pardon the grammatical double negatives, but it's not nothing, less than the very body it animates. Nor is it a chemical. No doctor examining a corpse, can tell you what chemical is missing that it should not live.
If there be nothing else save chemical substances, let doctors and scientists gather together the requisite chemicals and say, "Live". Try as they will, they can effect nothing like this. There is something that chemistry cannot reach; it is the SOUL, sometimes called spirit.
Lula, my dog is alive and well and though we are soul mates hahaha ... he doesn't really have a soul either. You want to talk principles … I do not need to find the answers to all the mysteries of the universe … all I feel obligated to do is just look for what answers my understanding and personal knowledge can uncover and comprehend. Why would anyone try to “create life” in some mystical manor when we all know how this is done. Worked for my dog … and it worked for me … PROOF of the constitution of all animals. We (I) know why the body stops functioning and it is elementary indeed … right? Or is medicine one of the fields of religion that cannot be believed because it actually requires that nasty snake oil thing called ‘knowledge’ to propagate its lies and deceits against the RCC, hahaha.
Yes, your dog has a soul...it's just not immortal and rational as yours is. When your pooch dies it's dust and no more.
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There certainly are no definitive answers (facts) for believing you "evolved" from an ape. You are big on proofs for belief, but evidently not in this case since try as they have, evolutionists have no scientific proofs of evolutionary apes-to-mankind. The missing link between the two is still missing. Evolutionary apes-to-mankind is pseudo science.
Reason discredits Godless evolution.
Since Godless evolution from nothing is absurd, I know with certainty I did not evolve from an ape. I was specially created by God, and you were too.
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Back to truth? Yes, let's go there.
Divine Faith (aka true Religion), truth and true science. How are they connected?
You ask, Do I understand the word "truth".
Yes I do.
No proven scientific conclusion will ever necessitate the rejection of a single word of Scripture or Tradition (the infallible teachings of the CC). That's because truth can never contradict truth.
God revealed true Religion (Catholicism) and science call for belief by both faith and study. Faith proceeds all study. religion begins with Divine Faith, that will not in fact decieve; whereas science begins with human faith that is fallible.
It's utterly impossible to study math, physics, archeology, linguistics, etc. as well as Religion, without accepting first principles upon faith, without faith in teachers.
Science, like Religion, begins with mysteries, truths that are not and ever will be fully understood. Electricity is an example. There are natural mysteries about electricity, yet their manifestations prove their existence. Same thing with Religion and proof of God,
"The heavens show forth the glory of God and the firmament declares the works of His hands." Psalm 18:1.
A teacher said: "Science is knowing how God works in the natural order. Divine Faith is knowing how God works in the supernatural order."
If faith were intellectually in conflict with science,the great Catholic scientists could not have consistently proclaimed themselves to be Catholics in faith and practice. They found that faith teaches things so profound they are above reason. Also that faith in both true religion and true science does not teach anything opposed to reason or to those sound principles necessary to reason rightly.
(getting personal) With all due respect, you fail to understand what faith really is and its basic role in the sphere of true science as well as true religion.
Faith is not emotional, blind submission to the unknowable. Rather Faith is an intellectual assent of the mind to something not seen with the physical eye; the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of someone else. In true religion, it is Divine Authority (teachers, first taking Christ at His word to His Apostles..to their successors bishops in Christ's Church).
In science, it is dependence upon human authority that may or may not be right.
When faith of science is accepted, and not the faith of true religion, it's wise to recall what St.John said,
"If we accept the testimony of man, the testimony of God is greater."
They are not.
Science tries to find explanations that work for observed facts and can be used to predict new facts. The explanations don't have to be true or even very correct to be useful.
Religion tries to find the absolute truth and its explanation is so complete and ready for anything that it cannot predict anything at all.
The two solve very different problems (lifestyle vs engineering) and shouldn't be confused.
Nobody should design a nuclear power plant based on the belief that G-d is good and protects us if we pray enough and nobody should make a decision about life and death based on the weight of a Uranium atom.
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