In another blog, I was asked this question: Do you believe a person must be Catholic to get to Heaven?
The short answer is I believe the only requirement for a person to get to Heaven is that person's soul must be completely free of sin.
Regarding the Church, Christ developed the image of the Good Shepherd and His Church through the image of the flock or sheepfold and who will be in it. Read St. John 10 only 42 short verses.
"I am the Good Shepherd; and I know mine and mine know me" v. 14 ..."And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also, I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." v. 16 "As the Father knoweth me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep" v. 15 ....the Father and I are one." v. 30.
As far as the Church, I believe it cannot be a matter of indifference to which Church I belong. I have examined the reasons for my Catholic faith and also the claims of the Catholic Church. She is the only possible Church historically, Scripturallly, and logically and that she must be infallible in her official teachings in faith and morals. Once I knew that the Catholic Church is divinely qualified to speak the truth in religious matters, I accept her decisions and definitions. As far as I'm concerned nothing could be more wise than that. In fact, it would be sheer folly to do otherwise.
I believe that since Christ established one Church, I am not free to belong to any other. I believe that nevertheless, all those outside the Church through no fault of their own will be saved if they follow their conscience and do not die in mortal sin.
I cannot conscientiously say that one religion is as good as another. I believe that those who labor under ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance be invincible, are not before the eyes of God burdened with guilt for this thing. I believe that those will be lost who are convinced that the Catholic religion is the true religion and yet refuse to embrace it.
I believe that is what I mean when I say: "Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation."
Is it not God's will that all should be Catholic?
I believe it is. For Christ established the Catholic Church, and commanded her go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn and of the Holy Spirit. But He said also, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not shall be condemned." He thereby tells us that not all who hear the truth will accept it. He Himself did not convert all to whom He preached. In individual cases, we must refuse to judge in which even those who have heard the truth concerning the Catholic Chruch apprehend its significance. Their responsibiliity in remaining non-Catholics must be left to Almighty God.
Meantime, we Catholics pray for them realizing that God's time is the best time. It is for us to pray that He give them the grace of the Catholic faith, and that they may correspond with that grace despite all difficulties when it becomes clear to them where God is calling them.
St.John 17 is Christ's Prayer that takes place at the end of the Last Supper. After praying that His Sacrifice on the Cross be acceptable to the Father, He then prays for unity.
Unity is not mentioned, he prays for all believers!
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
You asked, "why does Jesus pray for all those who believe in Him?"....but notice, Verse 20 doesn't have the word "all" in it.
No, the word all is not there, though there is no exclusion there. You're interpreting it the way you want. It doesn't say that he prays for only some believers but "those who willl believe in me through their message", the Apostles message is in the Bible!
Eph. 4:4-5 explains what that unity is ..... One Shepherd, one flock, one Faith, etc.....
You know, you really love that passage, mainly because you use it as your excuse for why the Catholic Church is the ONLY way to go.You conveniently leave out Eph. 4:6 which is the following.
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
So, let's look at the whole thing:
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
"Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit", not of the Church. "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." seems to me that includes everyone (your all word you were looking for). Here's another passage on unity.
1 Corinthians 1:10-17
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Let's for one minute look at this. It says to follow Christ alone, not any of the Apostles, not anyone else. It means do not follow Paul, do not follow Apollos, do not follow Cephas or anyone else, like the Pope! It says to follow Christ for he's the one who died for you on the cross. Now explain to me how the Catholic Church gets around that one or are you going to say that I'm just completely wrong on that one because the Pope isn't just another man like the rest of us? Just like Paul was just an ordinary man and Simon was an ordinary man, oh yeah, you call them "Saints" as well and pray to them too!
St. John 17: 6-21
6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: 8 Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine: 10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. 13 And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.
16 They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:
Jesus is not praying for all those who believe in Him...for even the devils believe and tremble...St.James 2:19. And Jesus certainly never prayed for the Devil.
So, get "All those who believe" out of mind for these passages in St.John 17 6-21 specify those for whom Our Lord is praying and why.
In vs. 6-19, we read that Jesus is praying specifically for the Apostles, v. 11 that they may be one, that is, unified in the one Spirit, that they all preeach the same Gospel,...why is He praying for them? Becasue Jesus is getting ready to send them out to continue His mission... that is, to teach and baptize all nations in His Name. St.Matt. 28:16-20. He asks God to sanctify them in the truth...and it follows there is only One Spirit, One God, there is only one truth...Jesus wants His Apostles "all on the same page" so to speak regarding all that He had taught and shown them.
In v. 20, Jesus, after praying for His Apostles, then prays also for those who after hearing the Apostles' teach and preach the Good News are converted to the Faith (become believers).
You ask WHY does Jesus pray for the believers....the answer is found in v. 21...that they may be one, just as Jesus and the Father are One.
Yes, Christ prays that those who believe in Him are unified....His prayer that they may be one is mentioned 4 times at the end.
Lula posts:
First, in St.John 17, we learn specifically WHO Jesus prays for....His Apostles those whom they bring to the Faith.
Second, we learn WHY Jesus prayed for them...that they might all be one, as per Eph. 4:3, that they "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."
Third, Ephesians 4:1-6 confirms WHAT they might be unified in...."One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Before Christ ascended into Heaven, He promised the power of the Holy Spirit would be given to the Infant Chruch just before they would be sent out to teach all nations. Acts. 1:8. Ten days later on the First Pentecost Day the Apostles and disciples recived the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire.
You have asked on another thread that I might show you how Scripture shows that Christ established a Church that is the Catholic Church of today.One of the titles of the Church is “the Bride of Christ.” No institution was ever joined so closely to one Man as the Church is with her Founder.” Like Him, she has the universal mission to teach all men and guide them to their eternal destiny. First, Christ predicted the advent of His Church saying, “I must preach the kingdom of God, for therefore am I sent.” St.Luke 4:43. He called the Apostles and appointed them as teachers and rulers in His Church. “Teach men to observe all things whosoever I have commanded you. Behold I am with you all days even to the end of the world.” St.Matt.28:20. He constituted St.Peter as head, “thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church." St. Peter could not have been the rock-foundation of Christ’s Church unless he was given authority to teach and rule. This authority was promised in the words “I will give to thee the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.” The kingdom was to be a visible kingdom as a city set on a hill. Christ taught and trained them not for their benefit only, but that they might be teachers of others. They were the seed of the Church. When Christ warned this little society unto themselves about their obligation of correcting the brethren, He said, “If he (the erring one) refuses to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuses to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven.” St.Matt. 18: 17-18. The spiritual power of the Apostles had extended to loosing and binding…”Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, and those sins you shall retain, they are retained." St.John 20:23. In these words of commission, the distinctive marks of the Catholic Church already stand out. Man’s relations with God are not left to the individual, but are under the control of authority. This authority was established by the will of God and those who hold it are not all men, but only a few, namely the Apostles. And since the Apostles could not live forever, this authority was to descend to their successors.Here is the first mention of the word “Church” in the NT, a word that means an assembly and in the OT was applied to the entire people of God. Christ intended the Church to be the new Israel whose authority was to endure forever. Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. Before He ascended into Heaven, He commanded them to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them to observe ALL that he had commanded telling them He would be with them all days until the end of the world. He conferred on St.Peter the power that He had promised. “Feed My sheep. Feed My lambs.” Through this preaching and hearing of the Word, and its acceptance by the nations, the Kingdom of God was to be established, developed and perpetuated. The Lord ascended into Heaven and for a time His initial group of followers remained in Jerusalem awaiting the event Christ said would take place. On Pentecost Day, the Holy Spirit came upon them in what Acts 2:3 calls “tongues of fire”. After Pentecost the Apostles acted collectively as officers of the newly formed religious society. Throughout Acts we read how they exercised their God-given authority to teach, govern and sanctify. Over both Jewish and Gentile converts, their authority was accepted as from the divine, and they claimed such 1Cor. 2:1-5; or in judging 1Cor. 5 or in rebuking, 1Cor. 6, or in making laws or giving precepts 1Cor. 11, 12 and 14. Under the Apostles inferior ministers already began called deacons and presbyters and bishops, who together with the Apostles formed a true hierarchy. 1St.Peter 2:9, 12, 25; 5. St.Paul through "the laying on of hands" ordained the fullness of the priesthood upon Timothy and Titus whom he sent to organize churches. Christ said I will be with My Church all days until the end of the world. Now the only Church that has been all days in the world since Christ is the Catholic Church and if He did not establish that Church, He established none. If that Church failed, then the gates of Hell have prevailed against Christ's Church and He has not been with her all days since His time until now. The Catholic Church alone has the essential constitution prescribed by Christ and alone behaves as possessing the magisterial, sanctifying (7 Sacraments) and diciplinary authority He conferred upon His Church as per the Gospel accounts. Yes, now there are external differences insofar as the grown tree differs from the seed, but the development is in full accordance with the nature and principle of the seed. And Christ knew that just a tree as the Catholic Church is today would develop from the seed He planted.
Yes, so let's view church as assembly. All those who "assembled" under Him and followed His teachings were His "church". His flock was all those who would listen no matter who they were, no matter where they were. His "church" today then would be all those who "assemble" in His name and follow Him, would it not? Those who have "unity in the Spirit", in the Holy Spirit, in God's name, not all those who attend what we now call a church.
He told the Apostles to go out as He did and spread the word to all who would listen, to continue what He no longer could. Peter may have founded a church to do this, but Christ himself did not. You must remember again, Peter and all the rest were just normal people when Christ found them. Fishermen and laborers who learned the word of God and then taught what they knew, we are also common people who know the word of God and we should teach what we know to those who will listen. He took the power to teach away from the Pharasees, who were simply using it for their own gain, and gave it to the commoners.
"inferior ministers", would love to know where it calls them as such. Would still love to hear your take on how the Catholic Church gets around 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, too.
Here St.Paul is calling for unity amongst Christians in the early Church. He saw they were squabbling and having disagreements due to preferences for certain teachers...Paul, Cephas (Peter), Apollos. St.Paul was taking the Corinthians to task for the strife and factions that were developing amongst themselves....He was teaching that Christ cannot be divided and neither can they if they work together to be harvestors of men.
Correct, we only follow Christ, and learn to do that through Apostolic teaching..That's why Christ sent them to go and teach all nations, baptizing...they would teach others to follow Christ just as they had faithfully done.
Yes, so let's view church as assembly. All those who "assembled" under Him and followed His teachings were His "church". His flock was all those who would listen no matter who they were, no matter where they were.
As to your 1st statement, the Church you are describing here as "His Church" can only be the Catholic Chruch when the things said in the BIble is put together with history.
As to your second statement, "His flock was all those who would listen no matter who they were, no matter where they were" ....His flock are all those who are baptized into the one Faith. It is by Baptism that we are made members of His one flock.
Again, Biblical Judaism was fulfilled, completed and perfected in Christ's holy religion of Christianity....in the Old Covenant ,one was made a member of God's flock by the rite of circumsion...in the New Covenant, one is made a member of Christ's flock by the rite of Baptism. And Baptism is a big deal when you consider that's what Christ gave His authority (power)to His Apostles to do when He gave them the commission to go and teach all nations....
Here it is:
That's why in St.Matt. 28:16-20, "
16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All authority (all power)is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
In v. 18 "All authority (power)"... See here the commission of the Apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ's Church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that He may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, He promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.
Here, Christ passes on to the Apostles His authority to teach and baptize. Knowing the Apsotles will not live forever and in order to keep Christ's authority and mission enduring until the end of time, they would have to ordain other men to carry on Christ's mission...and they did...the Book of Acts tells us much of the story...to enable this work, Christ promises to be with the Chruch and never leave it. ...that's promise is of course fulfilled as He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the birthday of the Church and He is with Catholics in Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist as we believe St.John 6 literally.
His "church" today then would be all those who "assemble" in His name and follow Him, would it not? Those who have "unity in the Spirit", in the Holy Spirit, in God's name, not all those who attend what we now call a church. No, "His Church", "His flock" is a very distinct, very definite assembly. It can't be all inclusive...it can't be all those who assemble in His name and follow Him because they all aren't united in the Holy Spirt..for if they were, they would all believe the same things. They don't..and why? Becasue in the 1500s, Protestantism fractured Christendom and has been fracturing itself ever since and continues today.
His "church" today then would be all those who "assemble" in His name and follow Him, would it not? Those who have "unity in the Spirit", in the Holy Spirit, in God's name, not all those who attend what we now call a church.
No, "His Church", "His flock" is a very distinct, very definite assembly. It can't be all inclusive...it can't be all those who assemble in His name and follow Him because they all aren't united in the Holy Spirt..for if they were, they would all believe the same things. They don't..and why? Becasue in the 1500s, Protestantism fractured Christendom and has been fracturing itself ever since and continues today.
Scripture is clear that Christ Eternal High Priest gave His authority in teaching His faith and morals only to His Apostles who in turn through the laying on of hands, ordained other men in the priesthood. No one on earth accept these priests have this authority given to them by Apostolic Succession.
1Cor. 1:10-17, is St.Paul is not calling for mere exterior unity, but unity of the Chruch. And the most basic dimension of the Church is unity of Faith. Since the Church is to last from 33AD until the end of time, she must continue to teach and preach the very same one Faith as that Christ taught the Apostles. Here, St.Paul teaches there is no excuse for divisions within the Chruch. Unity is not dependent upon which teacher you had or who baptized you...we are all one in Christ and therefore all belong to Him.
V. 14-17 Catholics believe it's through Baptism that we become a Christian, a part of the one Body of Christ. There are merits gained by Christ's death on the Cross are applied to him and the baptized person is configured to His dead and risen Lord..."Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therfore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life." Rom. 6:3-4.
v. 16 reveals that an entire family was baptized by St.Paul.
If you really believe that then you wouldn't be expressing your views here. If no one but them has the ability to teach the word of God then why are we discussing it here?
Mommie4life, you really need to start reading for context. I didn't say Christ gave His authority to teach the word of God only to His Apostles, rather I said Christ gave His authority to teach His Faith and morals only to His Apostles...."
Scripture describes a particular authority or power Christ gave to only St.Peter and His Apostles and thereby their respective successors, the bishops, priests and deacons in the CC. Only they have the authority and spiritual power through the Holy Spirit to "bind and loose" St. Matt. 16:19; to "forgive and to retain sins" St.John 20:23. Although we are all members of the one Mystical Body of Chirst, no one of the laity has the special authority to bind and loose or to forgive sins. Only ordained priests have that special authority given in 33AD by Christ when He gave the keys to the kingdom to St.Peter and told him to "Feed My Sheep".
St.John 20:23; St.Matt. 18:17; 16:19; and St. Luke 10:16 teach that Christ's Chruch has authority to act in His name and her leaders have a special authority which must be obeyed in matters of faith and morals. In Hebrews 13:17 St. Paul tells us to "obey them that have rule over you, and submit yoursleves: for they watch for your souls that they must give account...."
Zwingli, Luther and Calvin and their followers prefering to follow their own private judgment in matters of faith and morals, first protested and then rejected the Church and her God-given authority of Infallibility. That would make every Protestant his own Pope!
Wouldn't His Faith and morals be directly from the word of God....
Many people prefer their own private judgement in matters of faith and morals, if we didn't it would be a pretty dull world. God told us to talk directly to Him, so yes, as you put it we're our own Pope. We talk directly to God in prayer and ask His guidance, just as Christ did, just as the Apostles did, just as everyone else in the Bible did! Like I said, show me where the Catholic Church was given "God-given authority and Infallibility", after all religious leaders are just as human as the rest of us. The Pope is still human, the Deacons are still human, the Priests are still human, we're ALL human.
If God appeared to me in a vision and told me that it was my job to go preach His world in Africa, would I have to clear that through the Pope first, or should I just listen and obey?
Then why does Christ say over and over again that people were saved by THEIR faith, not anyone else's. If Christ wasn't able to save those who didn't believe then how would anyone else be able to just because they wanted to.
If by "word of God" you mean only the Holy Bible, the answer in no....
The Christian Faith and morals were first taught by word of mouth (Sacred oral Tradition) from Christ to His Apostles to their successors in His one, holy, Apostolic Church built upon St.Peter as its first head.
The Church came long before the Bible....before there was the New Testament, there was the Chruch, established during Christ's 3 year public ministry and after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit on the First Pentecost Day the Apostles set out to teach all nations the Christian Faith and morals. After Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit was the teacher, Comforter and guide to the Apostles and their successors in the Church.
Acts. 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses unto Me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth."
St.Matt. 28: 20, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
St.John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you." (note here it says teach All things)
St.John 16:13, "How be it when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you to all truth...." (Note here it says all truth)
The Catholic Chruch teaches and the Bible makes clear that the "Word of God" (i.e. all that has been divinely revealed for our salvation) is not limited to the Bible alone. God's revealed Word exists in both written form and oral form, both which require acceptance and obedience.
The Chruch has Christ always with her and the Holy Ghost always to guide her, not only during the first century but throughout all ages until the end of the world. So therefore, Christ's Chruch was necessarily infallible in matters of Faith and morals....The Chruch being as St.Paul said in 1Tim. 3:15, "the pillar and ground of truth."
These latest passages together with all the others in which I've developed show Christ established one true Catholic Chruch show that her authority is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Christ rules His Church since He is her Founder and Lord. Christ promised to be with His Chruch until the end of the world and we can be certain His guarantee didn't die with the last Apostle,,,,the Lord promised to never leave His people orphaned St.John 14:18.
The infallible authority in the Chruch exists to safeguard the integrity of the deposit of Faith (Tradition and Bible) and to foster the unity. The charism of infallibility is that gift where the Holy SPirit preserves the truth of the Apostolic Faith. The Pope enjoys the charism of infallibility when as supreme teacher and pastor of all the faithful, confirms us in the faith. St.Luke 22:32. He proclaims authoritatively an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter). This is a very specific and limited power.
People confuse this sometimes as though he creates new revelation through inspiration, when it's just the development of doctrine. For example, no official definition of Christ's divinity existed until the third council of Nicea in 325...not becasue the Chruch didn't believe it, but when after the belief came under attack by heretics, the Chruch defined it ex cathedra...and then Catholics know without doubt that what is defined is true becasue of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Same thing with which books and writings would finally make up the Old and New Testament Canon....The Church decided ex cathedra the 46 for the Old and the 27 for the New Testament.
Absolutely true.....we are all human, and all sinners.... the Pope, priests, deacons included. The Pope is not and has never claimed to be impeccable. But for our sake, not for hisown, God endows him with infallibility that he may tell us wtih certainity what we must believe and do in order to save ourselves....whether or not he personally lives up to it is quite another matter and his own business.
I can't help but to compare the traditon of the RCC with the traditons of the Pharisees. I'll let scripture answer this:
"Then came together to him the Pharisees and certain of the scribes which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they hae received to hold, as the washing of cups and pots , brasen vessels and of tables. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not your disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? "
Jesus replied:
"Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips but their heart is far from me. How in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the wshing of pots and cups and many other such like things you do.. Full well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your own tradition."
Exactly! If the Catholic Church did as Christ instructed and gave to the poor and needy then they wouldn't be rich, right? It's just one example of how "traditions" and "word of mouth" can be corrupted by man. The Bible itself has had it happen, the words have been slightly distorted by man, however it's morals still are intact, it's teachings are still there and some of us still read them rather than just blindly follow a leader.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKHTabTYl_M
LOL!
I love the movie! Don't like the sad ending though.
"Oh, dear Lord. You made many many poor people. I realize, of course, it's no shame to be poor... but it's no great honour either."
The ending is realistic. But do note that the revolution was near and Lenin really did make things better for Jews.
Yes I know the ending was realistic, but still sad. Lenin wasn't so bad it was Stalin that was a problem.
as an organization, the church has created of itself the absolute antithesis of christ's life and teachings as contained in the gospels. if the plan was to institute an even more flagrantly arrogant self-righteous and hypocritical corps of materialists than the pharisees against whom he preached, it's been hugely successful.
are you truly able to imagine christ esconced in the vatican palace in a worldly principality, adorned in gilded fabric and surrounded by dozens of colleagues clothed like royalty?
a self-effacing kind and good-hearted animist is more in tune with your jesus than all the popes who've donned themselves in fine fabrics and indulged themselves in luxury--and more deserving of a reward in the afterlife if there was such a thing.
Wow! Kingbee and I on the same page.
Mark it!
Marked.
lula posts
kfc posts : #62
Remember, the one Faith of Christianity (Catholicism) is the perfect development of the one holy Jewish religion, just as the perfect tree is the perfect development of the seed from which it grew. Just as sacred Jewish doctrine was contained in Tradition, so is sacred Christian doctrine contained in Apostolic Tradition. Almighty God gave both Sacred Oral Tradition to the keepers of the Old Law and they in turn passed down from generation to generation. Same thing with Sacred Apostolic Tradition which came from Jesus to the Apostles who handed it down to their successors, keepers of the New and Eternal Covenant.
What's the one most obvious instance of Protestants relying on the Sacred Tradition of the CC?
KFC, can you explain how the 27 Books of the New Testament got into the canon of the Holy Bible? It was through the living Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church, wasn't it? 1Cor. 11:1; 2Thess.2: 15; 2Tim. 2:2. Think about it....you must rely on Catholic Chruch Tradition to know what the NT itself is, and you do accept it, by virtue of the fact that you have a Bible. The CC gives all the glory to God for this for she did not make those books inspired...God did..same as with the OT...Similiarly The CC did not make them canonical...God did, by the very fact that He revealed them....same as with the OT.
The Catholic Church received this oral and written Revelation from God and the CC has been commissioned by Christ to authoritatively teach the meaning of inspired Scripture...St.Luke 1:1-4; 10:16; St.Matt. 16:18-19; 18:18; 28:18-20, etc. What this means is that the CC which had been entrusted with the great gift of the NT canon, handed on that revelation faithfully and accurately.
So, thanks KFC for supplying these passages found in St.Mark 7:1-13 which when taken in context with St.Matt. 15:1-20 explain God's law (commandments) and the man-made traditions of the Pharisees.
If you want to know something more about the "traditions of men" that Christ was condemning (St.Luke 11:52), study what those Pharisees did at Jamnia in 90AD in putting their own canon together.
exactly BT. We are living in what the scriptures called "the times of the Gentiles." When this "age" is done, (which I believe should be in the next 25 years or sooner) the return of the Messiah is to be expected. Everything is lining up and going towards that end at what seems like a very fast rate these days.
Also, you must ask what is the "church?" Never, in the original Greek is the word "church" connected to a building or denomination. The word is "ecclesia" and means "called out ones." Called out of what? Called out of the world and its false system. My blog "The Birth of the Whore" gets into this more in depth.
Lula posts: Christ said I will be with My Church all days until the end of the WORLD.
It goes to the fact that there are many different translations of the Holy Bible out there. What version is this from? Just curious.
Anyway, the Douay Rheims version has Christ's commission to His Church in St.Matt. 28:18-20 as
" And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in Heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
The Protestant King James version has the end of verse 20 as "...even unto the end of the world." Amen.
The beginning of St.Matt. 24 is where Christ foretells the destruction of the Temple with the signs that will come before it and the signs that will come before the Last Judgment, which is at the consummation of the world. Here is St. Matt. 24:3, "And when He was sitting on Mount Olivet, the diciples came to Him privately saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?"
One of the signs before the end of the world is that the Gospel must be preached to the whole world, scroll down to verse 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached to the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come."
Quoting BoobzTwo, reply 72"Christ said I will be with My Church all days until the end of the AGE". The Age of Pisces … the two fish … not the end of the world!
The end of the Age (that is, "the Age" being the Church Age) is the end of the world at least according to the Apostles' Creed.
Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ, reply 73exactly BT. We are living in what the scriptures called "the times of the Gentiles." When this "age" is done, (which I believe should be in the next 25 years or sooner) the return of the Messiah is to be expected.
We are living in the times of the Gentiles also called "the Church age"; in Scripture "the last days". "The time of the Gentiles" or "the Church Age", these "last days" is from Christ's First coming to when He will come again (His Second Coming) which is at the consummation of the world (end of the world).
Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ, reply 73 When this "age" is done,
It will be when Christ comes again, the end of the world and the Final or Last Judgment.
Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ, reply 73(which I believe should be in the next 25 years or sooner)
Who knows? No one knows how long this will be except the Father in Heaven ... so predicting it is just something that various Protestant sects like to do.
Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ, reply 73When this "age" is done, (which I believe should be in the next 25 years or sooner) the return of the Messiah is to be expected.
Ah, here comes your Zionist bent!
KFC, knock, knock, the Messias Christ already came. Christ is not coming again as Messias, to save, that time will be over as it will be the end of the world. When Christ returns it won't be as Messias, rather He will return as JUDGE of all mankind. Again, I say that because I read the whole of Scripture and believe the Apostles' Creed.
Here's the timeline....the present Church age...when that ends which we don't know when...Christ will come again to judge mankind. No more world, no more time. t's eternity.
The four last things are "the consummation of the world" or Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell. Period. Nothing else, no Ages to follow.
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