I by far believe it to be that quality of the games is more of what's dragging down the sales.

I myself have uhm *cough* pirated some games... and in truth I'm damn glad I did also. Because a lot of the games that I pirated just plain sucked, and would have been a total waste of my money had I actually bought them. (of course it is only my opinion that they sucked... ) Though the games that I did download and enjoyed.. I would actually go out and buy, because if you buy the game and they come out with some update for it, it's a LOT easier to get that update when using a legit version and also because my buying that game supports the company that makes it.

Now on the fact that a lot of games don't come out 100% workably out of the box is a long and complicated problem. Coding something like that isn't easy at all. I used to be in college for Computer Sciences. I was working on making just a plain C program that dealth with graphics card interfacing and just getting the computer to pop out the details of the card and to do a quick graphics test. The first time I programmed it up it worked like a jiffy on the comp I was using.. everything worked just fine. But I take the same program to another computer that has a different graphics card and it failed and blue screened the comp.

Writing and programming games and other programs will never be a 100% or probably even a 90% out of the box working capacity thing. There is just SOOOOOO many variations of computer set ups that the end user can have. And no matter how many of those variances you take into effect, you can't always program for them all.

I've been an avid gamer since I was 5 years old. I'm not a big fan of consoles as I consider them wasted hardware when my computer is faster and more flexible. However in the past year or so the only titles that have grabbed me have been bad ports from consoles (gta3, kotor, etc.) I'm now an xbox owner. with a bit of modification I find I can use it to play various media on my tv allowing me to get rid of my old media pc. The gaming industry has done nothing with the computer lately to make me want to give them my money. Even downloading games has become a waste of time as most of them are not worth playing once I get them. If the industry makes a quality game they'll get a quality response.

Let's see, when I first started gaming... That was with the early Mac, and around the time when ATARI stopped their lame consoles and went over to real computers. (I didn't like the console ATARIs) Now, if these people are trying to say that piracy is worse now than it was then.. They've completely lost it. I didn't know a single ATARI user who didn't have a few BBSes to dial up to and grab the latest Pompey's Pirates (my favourite example) disks. Going from there I learnt the value of the Warez scene, I could get a game, try it out, and buy it in the rare event that it was a good addicting game. You did it then, because most game developers weren't rolling in the money, and your few dollars would actually help them out. That was a bit of a rant, I really had no point.
I can't claim to buy games any more... Not for the sake of being a rebel badass and not buying games, when I can get them for free from BitTorrent/DirectConnect.. The problem in my eyes, is that the quality of games have just been dropping rapidly since the golden age of gaming.. the AMIGA/ATARI times. Sure, I could fire up one of the brand new FPS games and run around killing people in the most realistic way ever imagined on a computer... But honestly, if I wanted something realistic, I'd go outside. I'm all for good graphics, but I think they've really lost the genuine addictive gameplay that they once had. That's just my opinion ofcourse because I know there are thousands upon thousands of people who can play such a meaningless game as Counter Strike. Meanwhile, I could play a game like Magic Pockets for hours (256 (!) color game where you're a little kid with a funny head who throws tornados made of beads from his pockets). Because it was original. It was one of the more interesting games I've ever seen, and I can still remember the first time I played it.. Nedless to say, I can't remember the first time I played Counter Strike. (I never liked it, but I have played it)

Once again, I'm ranting... What my point is (if I have one), is that I think Piracy is overplayed. It's just like the music industry, lots of music gets shared over the internet.. But sales have been increasing overall in the music industry. I download tons of music every day, but I would'nt have half of my CD collection if it wasn't for pirating music by interesting bands... It's way easier to find them that way then trying to keep up interest inbetween commercials on ZTV/MTV/VH1.

My thoughts,
by Solidarity.

Oh ho ho... You see that's so interesting... but of course it's so easy to mod an x-box and download games

A friend of mine modded his, no soddering required. Now he downloads tons of games every week.

Since X-box is so compatible with windows, he networked it to his PC, microsoft made the thing dangit.

And thus the endless supply of games, sometimes he even gets them a day or so early. Free demo for me.

So.... my question. Xbox is easy to mod and easy to network, anyone who can pirate games over a wireless connection could do it. (req. that they set the connection up, proof of abilty so to say)

Why hasn't their been an equal drop in x-box sells then... huh?

Because x-box has been putting out games that non-geeks buy... sports games... fighting games...
They don't sell adventure and rpg as much as pc... so pirates aren't as interested to an extent...

That and the fact that not all people pirate. Gaming has spread to the adult generation, which means more gamers are unfamiliar with cracking and hacking, much less pirating.

X-box has good games... pc hasn't put out as much... just take a look at walmart.... most x-box games are within the century... seriously....
over a forth of the computer games are last millinium... They're still selling half-life and diablo.... It's getting harder to find recent PC games, much less good ones...

Console games are easier to find and buy... PC just doesn't put out... and thus the decline in sells

Sorry, people in reality I am the entire reason the computer gaming industry has taken a downward turn.

I had a ritual, every friday when i got paid, I'd go to the local Hastings and buy a brand new game.

Now, I have gotten a PS2 and quite a few games for it. Excluding my current Drengin.Net subscription, I have only bought 2 games this year. the first since I love the first 2 games in the series, (could say the same for MOO3 but that isn't this years game), the second I just loved the concept. They are the biggest flops, and pieces of trash, I have ever played: Lords of the Realm III, and Europa 1400.

I've been pondering over HomeWorld 2, but I don't want to spend $20 if it's a piece of junk too.

I've been gaming longer than my youngest brother who's now in college, has existed on this earth. If only I could run X-Com on my P4. I'm actually collecting antiquated stuff (for pc's anyway) so I can have a high end 486, or low end 586, so i can play some of the best games made on pc.

Excluding MMORPGS, this is where pc gamer sales are going.

*Currently devoting my time to MOO & Drengin

Piracy, these days, is big(ger) then ever. With broadband internet access and people in general being more tech savvy, it's not hard to see why piracy is growing. Not just in the area of PC games, of course, but also music, movies and even console games. But it would be lax simply to blame the poor showing/earnings of PC game makers on internet piracy.

Quality is to blame as well, despite what the game companies would have you believe. We can all recount experiences with games like MOO3 or Starfleet Command 3 (awesome game, yet horribly poor follow up by Activision with fixes/patches and all over a disagreement with Paramount.) Games these days are hyped up to be something which, in the end, they cannot be anymore. The bottom of the barrel has been hit and game makers these days are simply making the same games again and again.

There needs to be more foward thinking in game ideas and design. More solid testing to ensure the quality of the product and to ensure the contentment of the player.

Maybe it's simply a matter of people don't want to spend a hard earned $50+ for a game which given the recent showings by game companies these days, will probably contain more bugs then one could count. Instead of paying $50 for a semi-good, yet probably short and troublesome bit of entertainment, people would rather just pirate games? Who wants to spend money now on a game they may require 3-5 patches to simply work right?

I am right there with Desert Fox. I had an Atari 800XL, and bought a lot of software for it. But then I ran into some people who had pirated games, and then there was a program called Chipmunk that would let you crack and copy games. A friend of mine had a Commodore 64, and we ran into some people at college who had hundreds, if not thousands of cracked games. Needless to say my friend didn't need to buy games for a long time.

I actively buy games that I like. I will download demos or use demo disks to weed out junk I don't want, or to get enough of a taste of a game to satisfy my curiousity. I love gaming on my PC, and hope it does not go away. I love games on my consoles too, but they are totally different games. I hope people will do the right thing and support games they like. I would also wish games would be released with better quality control, and at better prices. To pay $40-50 for a game, you expect it to work out of the box.

Steve

The biggest problem I see with computer games these days is that alot of them are failing to truley exploit the strengths of the platform. The main strengths in the PC are versatile controls, better graphics capabilities (on average), larger storage, integration with the internet, and a high degree of modability (both in terms of hardware and software). Game developers seem to be putting out more and more console-y games on the PC, which is basically asking for PC sales to go down. Platformers and arcade racing games are perfect for the console. F/TPS games are also pretty strong on consoles, though mouse-aim can't be beat on any consumer platform to date.

PC games should be focused on having massive worlds, better AI, more after-release content, and more interaction with the world. With a console, you have about a dozen buttons and 1 or 2 directional controls. With a PC, you have at least 30 buttons and a very versatile directional control. Though some people complain about overly complex controls, the fact is that more controls is a strength. Now, don't confuse obtuse controls with more controls. Having an entire game run exclusively on a list of 400 archaic key commands is not a strong interface. However, an intuitively designed control scheme with lots of options is good.

One problem is standardization. If we leave the realm of games for a moment, just concider the majority of Windows software. If you hit Ctrl+X, you cut whatever is selected 90% of the time. CTRL+C copies, +V pastes, +A selects all, etc. There are dozens and dozens of key commands that are standard across 90% of Windows software, so people rarely complain about hard controls, even though there are dozens. Take MS word for example. Word has 100s of commands, most if not all available from key commands, yet people rarely complain about poor cotrols in Word because they are standardized and common. Of course, most Windows programs also allow access to everything with a mouse, and that too is a strength. I challenge anyone to tell me that they actually prefer using menus in console games over interfaces on the PC.

To some extent, games do standardize controls, but not enough. In shooters, the number keys generally select weapons, WASD controls movement, etc. In strategy games, 1-0 select unit groups, the arrow keys pan the camera, and double clicking on one unit selects all similar units on the screen at the time. However, other controls change from game to game. If you could sit down at an RTS game and know 99% of the controls because you've played an RTS before, that would drastically reduce some issues people have with games on the PC.

People complain about high system requirements for games and poor backwards and forwards compatability, but really, that's not a valid complaint. Untill recently, most consoles haven't been backwards compatable, and as far as I know, none are forwards compatable. Yes, if you don't have the nicest newest machine, you can't play Doom 3 with all the settings turned up, but guess what, on a console, you are FORCED to play with graphics that are permenantly frozen at a level roughly equal to that of when the console was released. It is kind of annoying that each new OS kills a bunch of games, but guess what, I'd much rather be running on a 32-bit system with Win XP then be sitting at a command line on an 8-bit machine so I could still play games from the 80s. At least on a computer, if you try hard enough, you can figure out a way to make it work if it is at all reasonable to expect it.

The computer holds the biggest lead in storage. No matter how you cut it, you just can't fit as much game onto a console cartidge or CD/DVD as you can onto a computer harddrive. This means that PC games should focus on having alot of content, such as lots of levels and items etc. This also ties in with the modability issue in that games should have alot more after-sale content added in. Unfortunately, with the trend towards a console-centric market, expansion packs and large free add-ons are being increasingly passed over in favor of half-assed sequels, since consoles can't do expansion packs at all.

Finally, yes the fall in PC sales is caused in part by piracy. A decline in quality and ease of use are also causes. So is the poor economy. But the biggest reason I see that the PC game market is falling is because developers are gravitating towards making console games and porting them, which means that fewer and fewer games actually fully exploit the strengths of the PC, and thus people end up buying them for the console because it is easier to use. The industry needs to refocus on making PC games for the PC, not platform-neutral games or games that are primarily console.

If you want it, and there are no weird legal issues with StarDock or TotalGaming, you can post it if you want, just put my name on it (MetMan), and I'd appreciate it if you could give me a link, for *ahem* "referals" to my freinds. Also, you might like the other post I made that is in the PC/Console comparison thread I made. But maybe that one sucks, heh.

I admit that I have downloaded games in a way that some would consider piracy. However it was only to try the actual games and not some crap demo that is meant to make the game look good when it's really crap and not worth wasting "Hard Earned" cash on. I do "not" keep the games after I have tried them and "IF" I liked them I do go and buy them. I have said this for a reason, because most people I know who download games, do it exclusively for that reason alone and are more than willing to pay for games they like. That was to address the piracy issue. ( Piracy is not always as extreme as you think and whether you believe it or not, most people "do" have morals and will usually feel guilty flat out stealing software.)

My other two major pet peeves about pc games today is 1:) When am I going to see something new and original come out of the wood works. I've seen about as many FPS's and RTS's as I can almost bear. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love RTS's and occasionally like a FPS, but FPS's come out in such frequency and have nothing new or really original from one to another that they very boring very quickly.
Now I can say that I love RTS's (such Pax Imperia Eminent Domain, homeworld 1and 2, hegemonia, master of orion, etc), but lately I've noticed the quality of new RTS's going down hill ( like their being rushed out the door ) with lack of creativity, originality, "story", fun factor,etc. 2:) Now for my biggest pet peeve of all. " EXCLUSIVELY ONLINE GAMES " I recently had a huge anger management problem with squaresoft (now square enix) with the release of Final Fantasy XI. $50 or £39 for the game itself plus $15.99 or the britsh equivelent a month "A MONTH" just to play a game. Same thing goes for Star Wars Galaxies. Now this is a crackpot idea if I ever saw one. I am a major Final Fantasy fan and was dissappointed that I was not going to get to play the next installment of the series because I am a "Working Man" "ON A BUDGET". This is another reason why I think PC games sales are going down in sales. It feels like their trying to see just how much money they suck out of me. And I know the first month is quote unquote free , It still doesn't cut it. And as everyone has probably figured out by now. When the service goes, so does the game. Sounds like a rip off to me.

I'm sorry about rambling a bit, my point is; I don't think piracy is the major issue. I instead think it is the lack of effort on the industries part and the downright "greedy" business tactics some companies are using as explained above. The industry "can" do "much" better.

Ironic day to resurrect this, BP OMowe, given the announcement that Peter Moore was leaving Microsoft for EA (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=16826 and http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/pmoore/default.mspx).

Unmentioned in any of the articles I read today (though I read 3-4) was that as the VP of IEB, he was not only responsible for the Xbox group, but for Games for Windows as well...  

indeed, this is an exceptionally interesting topic and i'm glad you brought it back.

like others, i've pirated games in the past, and i'd buy the game if it actually seemed worth it. demos, honestly, never give me enough of a taste of the game. i don't buy many games each year. before GC2, the last game i'd spent more than $10 on was the Civ3 box set.

criminologically speaking, the ease of a crime isn't the biggest determining factor in its frequency. the biggest determining factor is the economy. crimes of economic gain will go up when the economy slumps. software piracy is probably a bit different, since you first need a computer capable of running the thing you steal. that's why audio piracy will always be the worst, since mp3s are relatively small files that can be played on the barest of systems (hell, cell phones).

running a video game requires a PC with a bit more muscle, and the people likely to have them are also likely to be able to afford $50 for a new game. i'd say the biggest exception, and the biggest source of game piracy, are students. college students especially are more likely to be armed with newer computers and broadband internet connections, but also pretty likely to be broke, bored, and technologically savvy (or friends with someone who is).

but in general, people don't spend money solely for a product. they also presume a certain kind of support and preferential treatment. the number of flaming "game does not work!!!1" posts each week should attest to that. when people are giving you money, they can sometimes act like it means you're supposed to treat them like royalty.

on the other side of things, PC games are in a bit of a rut. i'd say GC2 has been the best 1-player game of its type, ever, specifically because of all of Brad's work on the AI. but as a strategy game in general, it's very simplistic. i'm fine with it it being the trade off for having better AI. but in terms of the rules of the game itself, there's nothing all that radically new.

its the same across game genres. games lately have lacked inspiration. most games seem to be only incrementally better than predecessors in their genres, if better at all. there have been some pretty new concepts in games in recent years, like Black & White or The Sims. but these aren't my kind of games; see, i'm a big of a megalomaniac. i dream of ruling whole planets and galaxies. IMHO, these games work best on the PC platform.

i also love RPGs, and even though Elder Scrolls IX has received outstanding reviews, the game's story seems rather dull and conventional to me. the scenario builder in Neverwinter Nights 2 is truly appealing to me, but other aspects of the game's performance sound medocre. i'm not exceptionally excited about either of these games.

on the other hand, my former roommate had a PS2. i played FFX and FFXII both through to almost the end, but in both cases the final disc became too scratched to play before i could finish (ex roomie's fault). i didn't even feel like renting the games so i could finish; i just looked up the plot spoilers on wikipedia. this is part of why i'm not strongly motivated to buy consoles and their games. the same is true to a lesser extent with PC games that require the disc to play, but these discs at least don't tend to be left in a high-usage device i share with others.

i never need to worry with SD's products. i'm basically set for life with them, as long as i have an internet connection. and now that i reflect on it, i think GC2 has been the best value for my money out of any form of electronic entertainment i've ever purchased. i'm also looking forward to Sins of a Solar Empire. i'll definately also buy StarCraft II when it comes out, regardless of the copy protection methods they employ (to an extent) - but if i could vote, i'd ask them to use something akin to SD's system.

just my two cents, anwyay.

while your arguments are well thought-out, that's still a big 'if'. what makes you think games aren't making money despite piracy? do you have hard numbers? don't get me wrong; i'm not claiming i do. it's just, this whole debate is kind of flowery without hard statistical analysis to back it up (on either side).